Taxes

[PRBuzz]

Why does it matter what a given candidate for political office pays in taxes as long as what was paid stands up to an IRS audit? It is highly unlikely the candidate had anything to do with writing the current/past tax code.

How many crazies are there out there (and there are a few) that would say: Oh I only had to pay under the current tax laws 15% and I feel so guilty here's another 15% just for the heck of it?

[RIJIMMY]

you're right.
However public sentiment is important in an election.
Joe the Butcher may pay 24% of his salary while Mitt the millionaire pays 15% of his salary. That doesnt sit right with most people.
Here is the kicker - Mitt wants to continue that policy and tax law. So his policy directly impacts the tax he pays. It wont sit right with voters.

[PRBuzz]

msnbc.com (nonscientific) survey of what the people want.

Someone reported in comments "the math" based upon the current gov $$ needs supports a 16% flat tax rate?

[JohnnyD]

Aside from the obvious bias ("wealth investors, like Romney"), those polls are useless. Everyone that replies to those things is all of a sudden an economist.

In my own ignorant opinion, it seems like the loopholes and tax deductions are the biggest issue. Child tax credits, mortgage deductions, rent deductions, trusts, the easily exploited "business expense", and 10,000 other flaws are what is wrong.

[RIJIMMY]

Originally Posted by JohnnyD

Aside from the obvious bias ("wealth investors, like Romney"), those polls are useless. Everyone that replies to those things is all of a sudden an economist.

In my own ignorant opinion, it seems like the loopholes and tax deductions are the biggest issue. Child tax credits, mortgage deductions, rent deductions, trusts, the easily exploited "business expense", and 10,000 other flaws are what is wrong.

exactly - I just read a recap of ROmneys taxes. He takes a ton in itemized deductions. As a working family, we get creamed by the AMT and I take very little in deductions. Is that fair?

You guys know I am for low taxes but the problem is broader than the easy answer of tax rates, we need an overhaul of the system Married working families get screwed.

[PaulS]

The one thing that really gets me is the carried interest for hedge fund managers which allows them to only pay a 15% tax on their first dollar of earnings.

[striperman36]

Amt really sucks. I hate the amt of money I give away
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[Fly Rod]

Just about all of us go to the tax man, H&R Block or a financial advisor or CPA to do our taxes. We are all looking to save money and use loop holes to not pay the IRS. Romney paid 3 million in taxes last year,"so what." He paid what he had to according to tax law.

Enough said.

I'm not voting for the guy anyway.

[JohnnyD]

Originally Posted by Fly Rod

He paid what he had to according to tax law.

I think that's exactly the point of all this. The tax law needs to be completely blown up and reconstructed to avoid letting people leverage these ridiculous write-offs and loopholes.

[buckman]

The guy paid 3 miilion to the Feds for working hard and being smart. Anyone here top that????

[spence]

Originally Posted by buckman

The guy paid 3 miilion to the Feds for working hard and being smart. Anyone here top that????

It takes money to make money

-spence

[buckman]

Originally Posted by spence

It takes money to make money

-spence

Then why isn't the Federal government loaded!!!! They have trillions.
We all know they "invest"

[RIJIMMY]

Originally Posted by buckman

The guy paid 3 miilion to the Feds for working hard and being smart. Anyone here top that????

But, if you earned the same amount of $$$ in SALARY from hard work, you'd be taxed much more and would be eligible for less in deductions - resulting in a much higher percentage.

I dont fault Romney at all but think the tax code is too hard on working families.

[scottw]

Originally Posted by RIJIMMY

I dont fault Romney at all but think the tax code is too hard on working families.

yet you continue to fault Romney....

"Joe the Butcher may pay 24% of his salary while Mitt the millionaire pays 15% of his salary."

and for the...4th time?...he's not paying 15% of his salary, he's paying 15% or so on his capital gains from investments he made with after-tax earned income(salary) which was already taxed at the top maginal rate when it was earned...good grief Joe the butcher is very likely paying little or no federal income tax when all is said and done if he is in the bottom 60% of earners

[Fly Rod]

Originally Posted by spence

It takes money to make money

-spence

I agree with that statement.

You work get paid a wage take a percentage of your net and when acculminate a thousand or so you invest and that money starts to make money.

You do not need to be a millionaire to be well off. Most Americans do not save and not taught to save and invest. What do we do? We buy new cars that depreciate as soon as you turn the key, boats, 4-wheelers, ski mobiles, skiing, tickets to games etc:, keeping up with the Joneses.

"What em I suppose to do to have fun." DURRRRR.

Don't give me the crap that there is only monies to pay the rent, or mortgage and diapers. People always have money for cigaretts or booze, but no money to tuck away.

Anybody that smokes has to be a millionaire.

[PaulS]

Originally Posted by scottw

he's paying 15% or so on his capital gains from investments he made with after-tax earned income(salary) which was already taxed at the top maginal rate when it was earned

Not if his money was paid as "carried interest" like hedge funds managers are paid. I'm not sure how his earnings from Bain where paid. Romney (and the hedge fund managers) may be a special case and if you used the owner of a store for example, you are right.

I think the problem with what you said is that most people either don't care what the $ was originally taxed at or really don't know.

[justplugit]

Originally Posted by Fly Rod

I agree with that statement.

You work get paid a wage take a percentage of your net and when acculminate a thousand or so you invest and that money starts to make money.

You do not need to be a millionaire to be well off. Most Americans do not save and not taught to save and invest. What do we do? We buy new cars that depreciate as soon as you turn the key, boats, 4-wheelers, ski mobiles, skiing, tickets to games etc:, keeping up with the Joneses.

"What em I suppose to do to have fun." DURRRRR.

Don't give me the crap that there is only monies to pay the rent, or mortgage and diapers. People always have money for cigaretts or booze, but no money to tuck away.

Anybody that smokes has to be a millionaire.

X 2

[buckman]

CBS fact check from last nights speach.

Fact or Fiction Number 5 - The Rich, Their Secretaries and Taxes

Treasury Secretary Geithner yesterday declined to answer a key question about the president's proposed "Buffett Rule": How many millionaires and billionaires pay lower tax rates than middle-income families?

The answer: not that many.

End of debate.

[RIROCKHOUND]

Originally Posted by buckman

CBS fact check from last nights speach.

Fact or Fiction Number 5 - The Rich, Their Secretaries and Taxes

Treasury Secretary Geithner yesterday declined to answer a key question about the president's proposed "Buffett Rule": How many millionaires and billionaires pay lower tax rates than middle-income families?

The answer: not that many.

End of debate.

How about:
1. leave the capital gains tax rate as is.
2. The carried interest, which romney (and hedge fund managers etc) gets as a slice of Bain et al.'s profits from what I understand, goes to normal income rates
3. Set some floor for closing loopholes. If you make 7 figures a year, do you really need the child or mortgage intereste deductions?
4. Continue to close more corperate loop holes.

Of course we are all out to pay the least we can all pay, but there HAS to be a structure that doesn't decimate the lower and middle class that isn't 'class warefare'....

[buckman]

Originally Posted by RIROCKHOUND

How about:
1. leave the capital gains tax rate as is.
2. The carried interest, which romney (and hedge fund managers etc) gets as a slice of Bain et al.'s profits from what I understand, goes to normal income rates
3. Set some floor for closing loopholes. If you make 7 figures a year, do you really need the child or mortgage intereste deductions?
4. Continue to close more corperate loop holes.

Of course we are all out to pay the least we can all pay, but there HAS to be a structure that doesn't decimate the lower and middle class that isn't 'class warefare'....

Sure. I do agree the middle class needs help. I think where we disagree is how it can be accomplished. I think cuts in spending will be enough.

[RIJIMMY]

Originally Posted by scottw

yet you continue to fault Romney....

"Joe the Butcher may pay 24% of his salary while Mitt the millionaire pays 15% of his salary."

and for the...4th time?...he's not paying 15% of his salary, he's paying 15% or so on his capital gains from investments he made with after-tax earned income(salary) which was already taxed at the top maginal rate when it was earned...good grief Joe the butcher is very likely paying little or no federal income tax when all is said and done if he is in the bottom 60% of earners

i never once faulted romney. How can I, he is following the rules?
I fault the rules. Not romney. As is stated earlier, its not just the %, its the deductions and other. A working family making 100K - 300K, while well off is getting SCREWED in taxes. The code is not fair and has not been adjusted.
Not romneys fault.

[justplugit]

Originally Posted by RIJIMMY

i never once faulted romney. How can I, he is following the rules?
I fault the rules. Not romney. As is stated earlier, its not just the %, its the deductions and other.

Who in their right mind is not going to take advantage of an entitled tax
deduction if they know about it?

The whole progressive tax system needs to be completly overhauled and made into a flat or fair tax program.

It will never happen, too many lawyers, tax consultants and IRS employees
holding the power and Waaay too simple for the Govt. to want to understand.

[JohnnyD]

Originally Posted by RIJIMMY

i never once faulted romney. How can I, he is following the rules?
I fault the rules. Not romney. As is stated earlier, its not just the %, its the deductions and other. A working family making 100K - 300K, while well off is getting SCREWED in taxes. The code is not fair and has not been adjusted.
Not romneys fault.

After I get married next year, AMT is going to be a major concern of mine. But like you said, the rules are screwed up and because I do a lot of independent contract work, my CPA has advised me incorporate, work as an employee of that corporation and it will result in a portion of my earnings only being subject to Capitol Gains Tax, while also potentially helping us avoid AMT. All this work because the AMT is such a screw job.

Is is a messed up? Yup, certainly is.

As they say: don't hate the player, hate the game.

Originally Posted by justplugit

It will never happen, too many lawyers, tax consultants and IRS employees
holding the power and Waaay too simple for the Govt. to want to understand.

If it's too simple, it can't be easily exploited.

[justplugit]

Originally Posted by JohnnyD

If it's too simple, it can't be easily exploited.

[buckman]

Originally Posted by JohnnyD

If it's too simple, it can't be easily exploited.

Perfect JD.

[scottw]

Originally Posted by RIJIMMY

i never once faulted romney. How can I, he is following the rules?
I fault the rules. Not romney. As is stated earlier, its not just the %, its the deductions and other. A working family making 100K - 300K, while well off is getting SCREWED in taxes. The code is not fair and has not been adjusted.
Not romneys fault.

you continue to perpetuate the myth that he's not paying as much as he should and that there is a fairness issue that he's on the wrong side of and now that somehow what he pays in capital gains tax actually results in other people, like you, getting screwed...thus we have Warren Buffet's secretary sitting where American Heros have traditionally sat during the State of the Union as a poster child for those paying a higher tax on their "income" than the rich SOB that employs them, of coures we only find out later that this "secretary" makes between 200,000-500,00 dollars a year....sorry Jimmy, but that's exactly what your arguments imply and you fall right into this fairness trap which gets entirely away from the actual issue...

you are getting "screwed" because we have a government that is massively unfunded due to bloat and the current and future promises of entitlement programs...if they decide to tax capital gains on Romney types at 100%(and if you check there are only a small portion of "the rich" that fall into the capital gains class, the rest are paying the top marginal rate on earned income)....you will continue to be screwed because it will not solve the issue....the only serious cuts that Obama has proposed to date are military cuts which will in turn fund Obama Care, so we are gutting the military to create another unaffordable bureaucracy....some here have pointed out the reasons that taxes on capital gains are different than earned income.... do you want your capital gains or retirement investment dividends to be highly taxed at your retirement? I can easily make a credible argument as to why you should pay higher rates based on fairness and the needs of the government bureaucracy and in fairness to those that you have stood on the backs of to get where you are presently...

"adjusting the tax code" so that Romney pays more will not result in you paying less, they have no intention of allowing you to pay less because they have no intention of reducing government, and the nearly half of Americans earning incomes below you while paying little or no federal taxes need your generous contributions because they are enjoying unprecedented govenment benefits ...they will most likely ask you to pay more in the future..it's a fairness thing

"Joe the Butcher may pay 24% of his salary while Mitt the millionaire pays 15% of his salary. That doesn't sit right with most people."


I checked...the average salary for a butcher nationwide is around $30,000...

BLS data reveals that the mean annual wage for butchers and meat cutters is $30,190. Those in the 10th percentile earn $18,060; in the 25th percentile they average $21,850; in the 50th percentile $28,600; in the 75th percentile butchers average $37,380 and in the 90th percentile the average annual salary is $45,500. Most experienced union butchers likely make in the upper range of the bureau's salary spectrum.

Industries
The majority of butchers work for grocery stores, with 89,550 workers earning an annual mean wage of $30,550. Specialty food stores employ 12,770 butchers and meat cutters, who earn an average $27,910. Animal slaughtering and processing companies employ 11,010 workers, who average $27,380 per year. Other general merchandising stores employ 6,000 and pay $32,460 while wholesalers employ 3,220 with average earnings of $30,750. The industry paying the most, the federal government, employs 1,160 butchers and pays an average of $44,270 annually.



I think someone that posts frequently here can tell you what his federal tax liability is very quickly....if you check the tax rates he's likely paying 15% before deductions and eligible for a whole host of benefits

I suppose you can now complain about the inherent unfairness of "Millionaire Mitt" paying the same tax rate on his "salary" as Joe the Butcher although that would still be only partially credible if at all

congrats JD, to you and your future bride...that is great news...

[scottw]

Romney's Wiki page is very interesting...no community organizing or terrorist friends in the neighborhood or radical anti-American spiritual advisor "uncles"

In 1990, Romney was asked to return to Bain & Company, which was facing financial collapse.[52] He was announced as its new CEO in January 1991[64][65] (but drew only a symbolic salary of one dollar).[52] Romney managed an effort to restructure the firm's employee stock-ownership plan, real-estate deals and bank loans, while rallying the firm's thousand employees, imposing a new governing structure that included Bain and the other founding partners giving up control, and increasing fiscal transparency.[43][47][52] Within about a year, he had led Bain & Company through a turnaround and returned the firm to profitability without further layoffs or partner defections.[47] He turned Bain & Company over to new leadership and returned to Bain Capital in December 1992.


Millionaire Romney screwed the government out of tax revenue by working for $1!!!!!!

[TheSpecialist]

Originally Posted by PRBuzz

Why does it matter what a given candidate for political office pays in taxes as long as what was paid stands up to an IRS audit? It is highly unlikely the candidate had anything to do with writing the current/past tax code.

How many crazies are there out there (and there are a few) that would say: Oh I only had to pay under the current tax laws 15% and I feel so guilty here's another 15% just for the heck of it?

Exactly, if you or I or anyone of this site could get away with it they would.

[TheSpecialist]

Originally Posted by scottw

Romney's Wiki page is very interesting...no community organizing or terrorist friends in the neighborhood or radical anti-American spiritual advisor "uncles"

In 1990, Romney was asked to return to Bain & Company, which was facing financial collapse.[52] He was announced as its new CEO in January 1991[64][65] (but drew only a symbolic salary of one dollar).[52] Romney managed an effort to restructure the firm's employee stock-ownership plan, real-estate deals and bank loans, while rallying the firm's thousand employees, imposing a new governing structure that included Bain and the other founding partners giving up control, and increasing fiscal transparency.[43][47][52] Within about a year, he had led Bain & Company through a turnaround and returned the firm to profitability without further layoffs or partner defections.[47] He turned Bain & Company over to new leadership and returned to Bain Capital in December 1992.


Millionaire Romney screwed the government out of tax revenue by working for $1!!!!!!

Sounds like the right guy to lead this country out of the crapper. Obama has no business experience like this.

[RIJIMMY]

Originally Posted by scottw

you continue to perpetuate the myth that he's not paying as much as he should and that there is a fairness issue that he's on the wrong side of and now that somehow what he pays in capital gains tax actually results in other people, like you, getting screwed...thus we have Warren Buffet's secretary sitting where American Heros have traditionally sat during the State of the Union as a poster child for those paying a higher tax on their "income" than the rich SOB that employs them, of coures we only find out later that this "secretary" makes between 200,000-500,00 dollars a year....sorry Jimmy, but that's exactly what your arguments imply and you fall right into this fairness trap which gets entirely away from the actual issue...

you are getting "screwed" because we have a government that is massively unfunded due to bloat and the current and future promises of entitlement programs...if they decide to tax capital gains on Romney types at 100%(and if you check there are only a small portion of "the rich" that fall into the capital gains class, the rest are paying the top marginal rate on earned income)....you will continue to be screwed because it will not solve the issue....the only serious cuts that Obama has proposed to date are military cuts which will in turn fund Obama Care, so we are gutting the military to create another unaffordable bureaucracy....some here have pointed out the reasons that taxes on capital gains are different than earned income.... do you want your capital gains or retirement investment dividends to be highly taxed at your retirement? I can easily make a credible argument as to why you should pay higher rates based on fairness and the needs of the government bureaucracy and in fairness to those that you have stood on the backs of to get where you are presently...

"adjusting the tax code" so that Romney pays more will not result in you paying less, they have no intention of allowing you to pay less because they have no intention of reducing government, and the nearly half of Americans earning incomes below you while paying little or no federal taxes need your generous contributions because they are enjoying unprecedented govenment benefits ...they will most likely ask you to pay more in the future..it's a fairness thing

"Joe the Butcher may pay 24% of his salary while Mitt the millionaire pays 15% of his salary. That doesn't sit right with most people."


I checked...the average salary for a butcher nationwide is around $30,000...

BLS data reveals that the mean annual wage for butchers and meat cutters is $30,190. Those in the 10th percentile earn $18,060; in the 25th percentile they average $21,850; in the 50th percentile $28,600; in the 75th percentile butchers average $37,380 and in the 90th percentile the average annual salary is $45,500. Most experienced union butchers likely make in the upper range of the bureau's salary spectrum.

Industries
The majority of butchers work for grocery stores, with 89,550 workers earning an annual mean wage of $30,550. Specialty food stores employ 12,770 butchers and meat cutters, who earn an average $27,910. Animal slaughtering and processing companies employ 11,010 workers, who average $27,380 per year. Other general merchandising stores employ 6,000 and pay $32,460 while wholesalers employ 3,220 with average earnings of $30,750. The industry paying the most, the federal government, employs 1,160 butchers and pays an average of $44,270 annually.



I think someone that posts frequently here can tell you what his federal tax liability is very quickly....if you check the tax rates he's likely paying 15% before deductions and eligible for a whole host of benefits

I suppose you can now complain about the inherent unfairness of "Millionaire Mitt" paying the same tax rate on his "salary" as Joe the Butcher although that would still be only partially credible if at all

congrats JD, to you and your future bride...that is great news...

im not talking debt, Im not talking expense, Im talking tax code. The current tax code is not set up to properly tax today's population. This is not class warfare, this is not about Mitt. said it 10 times, you dont get it. the AMT screws working families.