Surf Spin Rod for Braided Line

[SAUERKRAUT]

I feel I'm being forced to strip down my Lami GSB 132 1L and completely reconfigure it if I want to use braided line trouble free. Four plus times a night while casting braid, the line loop will overwrap itself around either the tip top, or the next guide down. During the season, this recurrent problem has sometimes resulted in a line breakoff, and twice literally ripped a guide. Most of the time, however, it grabs, slows the line flow down, and then I have to go up to the top with my hands and release the single pesky overwrap from the guide. I never had this problem casting mono.

Currently this rod has five guides before the tip. The first guide is a 55 mm. wire Mildrum type. the other four are graduated Fuji SiC from 30 mm. down.

Will this solve my problem: add an extra, 6th guide to the setup; bring the 1st guide closer to the reel (say within 36"); and downsize the whole guide train ring size?

Did I explain this issue succinctly enough? I am most curious if anybody else has been suffering this.

[SeaWolf]

what size reel are you using? what pound test braid are you using? are you fishing around rocks or only on the beach?

ss wire guides have no place with braid, especially the older large catch guides. depending on the reel, fishing area, and pound test, you can get away w/ a 30 or 40 catch guide and go down from there. your tip doesnt really need to be any larger than a 12 and the running guides can be 10s. i'd put at least 8-9 guides on that 11' rod. look into the newer style tip tops from fuji as they are not as prone to line wrapping on the tip. the pst-style tips are being discontinued anyhow. use a sic tip also.

[SAUERKRAUT]

Thanks for your comment. I agree wire has "no place" with braid. However, a 40 or larger ceramic type guide is such a clunky thing, that the wire has a far larger inside diameter for the mass.

The reel I use is a 706Z, usually with 40# PP. I fish it all...beach and boulders (why did you ask this specific question?).

Bonds,

[scottw]

you can go to the Fuji website and get the their CONCEPT lay out for guide placement which is designed for distance and braid only, all small guides, I wrapped a loomis 1266 and it's fantastic....their concept, low rider and bmnag's will work for this

[ReelinRod]

You are experiencing a common problem with spinners throwing braid at high line velocities. There is zero need for large guides with braid especially huge wire frames. The old "rules" for wrapping spinning rods with huge guides are pretty much relegated to the "vintage" heap, only to be resurrected if you want a rod built like they did in the "oldern days". The whippiness of the 1L only adds to the problem; loose coils of braid trying to navigate thru big rings on a rod with delayed recovery is a recipe for disaster.

While the the "New Concept" is good you will still experience guide wraps; perhaps even more-so because the limpness of braid does not follow that nice , theoretical "cone" of control . . . and there are not a heck of a lot more guides. True New Concept on an 11ft Lami would net you 8 or 9 guides. Guide wraps will still happen because the limp coils are still not being controlled and the shape of the guides permit a hitch to take hold.

The Low Rider system is what you are looking for; fewer guides (than New Concept), less weight and I know, better casting performance. The shape of the guide is designed to eliminate guide wraps; there is no catch-point on the frame / ring for the line to grab.



Lowriders epitomize the modern, prevalent thinking for spinning equipment with braid being thrown with high line velocities; to throttle the line as soon as possible. The old gradual choke theory of old is not compatible with braid (at least at high velocities). Braid demands to be controlled quickly especially on a rod like the 132 1L and the small rings on the lowriders were designed to do that.

My fishing down here in Jersey is primarily done with clip-down bait rigs, aerodynamic poppers and metals thrown extreme distances using JDM (Japan Domestic Market) engineered for distance spinners. My distance spinning rods are all rung with lowriders which feature a gathering guide of 20mm which is typically placed 47 inches from the reel stem.

This is my son with the best performing set-up I have; Daiwa Basia reel with 20lb Sufix running line and 80lb Sufix braid casting leader, an All Star 1507 (13'-2", 2 - 6oz) with Fuji LCSG SiC Lowriders.



On this rod, after much test casting, because of the very aggressive line dispensing of the Basia the first guide was placed 53 inches from the reel stem. This set-up is good for 190 yds with a metal and 150+ yds with a Gibbs pencil (although not the best action to work it).

The Lami, while not a distance rod, should still perform better with the lowriders and they will certainly end your guide wrap woes.

[zimmy]

my advice would be to check out the new guide concept as discussed ad naseum on rodbuilding org and in rodmaker magzine. it has worked really well for me with braid and is straight-forward to follow. It is different than what fuji suggests. I built a rod using the rodmaker guide concept for use with a 706 and used a 40 bmnag fuji as the stripping guide. you might then end up with something like a 25, 16 and then your running guides in size 10 or so out to the tip. One of the things you will find is with their recommendations the gathering guide is in the 23-28" range (i think). It may seem close to the spool, but my rods have had gathering guide in the 28" range and it works well. Much better than when I moved it farther away. it really is worth at least reading up on that info. It helps alot.

[SAUERKRAUT]

ReelinRod and Zimmy: Many thanks for your replies. You are correct i am slow to depart from the "same old way" ideas about guides, sizing, numbers, and spacing. I understand now that soft 1L Lami blank tip recovery whipping as an additional detriment.

I appreciate your understanding and hands on knowledge of the issue of which I speak. Since I do all my own rod work, I will finish out this season best I can with my above totally redesigned rod as I described above (which didn't improve a darned thing), and do this as a little off season winter project.

Question: I love shock leaders for the practical aspects of the fishing. The knot seems to play additional havoc with braid as opposed to mono. And forget about putting the knot on the reel spool with one or two wraps like I used to do. But even the knot left outside along the guide train seems to be problematic. Should I just forget about the shock leader idea? Any experience?

Bonds, Sauerkraut

[SeaWolf]

kraut - if you plan on using a shock leader where you wrap a few times around the spool, i would not go any smaller than a size 10 running guide, and you may need size 12 running guides. if you use 12's, i'd jump up on the tip to a size 16 ring. your best option is to simply tape on the guides (possible glue on the tip) and do some test casting. it's better for you to have issues then and still be able to change options than build the rod and not be happy w/ the results.

[ReelinRod]

Originally Posted by SAUERKRAUT

Question: I love shock leaders for the practical aspects of the fishing. The knot seems to play additional havoc with braid as opposed to mono. And forget about putting the knot on the reel spool with one or two wraps like I used to do. But even the knot left outside along the guide train seems to be problematic. Should I just forget about the shock leader idea? Any experience?

Bonds, Sauerkraut

This is a contentious issue with me and I often get into heated discussions with guys from the south (especially NC) about what material to use . . .

First, let me state the fundamental tenet of my position: To me, the thought that the rod must be "protected" from the "shock" of the cast is nonsensical.

If the object is to impart the maximum energy upon the sinker (or lure) with the least energy exerted by the caster, then the addition of a component to the system that stretches just does not compute for me.

That's why I use a braid casting leader. I use 80lb for my casting leaders, its only job is to resist breakage from the centrifugal force exerted by the sinker during the cast. A side benefit to using braid is to minimize the size of the knot that must be passed thru the guides. I use a spider hitch in the 20lb running line then I tie uni to uni with the doubled 20 and the 80. I end up with 2 slim knots about 2 inches apart; I have never had this connection fail.

Breaks usually occur at the end of the leader. That's why diligence in inspecting the line is required. A braid casting leader is more susceptible to abrasion from shells and rubbing, especially when one is casting "off the ground" and the payload skims the ground before takeoff.

Understand, in fishing conditions (using a "typical" fishing cast) casting a payload within the rating of the rod will not overstress it. The truth is too, very few fishermen can truly and fully "load" the rod they are using. If a caster does not have good technique there is no way the rod is going to get loaded and thus, there's no way the rod will be stressed. To completely and effectively load a rod requires a refined casting motion . . . and that inherently is not abrupt or "shocking" to the rod because it is a progression of power.

The next question is, do you need a casting leader? Most guys I know who are big wood plug and popper users are spooling with 50lb braid . . . Just for the manageability of it at night, less wind knots or other line tension issues. With 50lb braid throwing plugs and metals under 6oz I would say no "shocker" is needed.

The common rule of thumb is 10 lbs of casting leader for each ounce of payload but understand that this rule is for tournament casting using a full pendulum casting motion with rods typically 14 feet or longer. A 150gm (5.24oz) sinker swinging at 200+mph on a radius of over 20 feet "weighs" 60lbs . . .

For fishing, using overhead thump casts (or OTG) even 30lb braid (if not frayed or damaged) will safely handle repeated casts of 5- 6 ounce payloads.

[Saltheart]

I think you will find that using the small guide "concept" system will interfer with your fishing. Number one thing to remember , its a fishing rod. Don't ruin its fishing effeciency by trying to get 7 more yards on a cast by using "concepts" that only look at the casting side of the equation.

For what you describe , I would use Fuji BSVLG guides from a 40 gathering guide to a 12 final guide and a 16 or 12 PST sIc tip. Use only 5 guides if possible but 6 is OK.

[striperman36]

Why do you feel the small guide 'concept' interferes with the fishability of the rod?

[Saltheart]

Don't have time to do that question justice right now. Search "Saltheart" on the SOL rodbuilding forum. I have gotten into it a lot over there in the past year or so. May people are eager to jump on this concept stuff. Some good opinions for and against can be found.

[mikecc]

When done right the concept guide system will out cast any regular spinning system. I'm building a 11' Lamiglas SSU with the concept system for spring it will have a Daiwa 5500 Emblem pro for the reel.

[Saltheart]

How many guides will that SSU have built that way and how big are the smallest guides near the tip Mike?

[zimmy]

I agree w/ saltheart to some extent on the small guide thing. I found no difference in performance going to say size 8 guides as compared to 10 or 12. Shockers completely limit the use of smaller guides in my experience (I don't use em anyway unless I am throwing 6 oz plus a chunk). However, if you aren't going to use a shocker and you aren't worried about weeds accumulating in the guides you can probably go with a 10 or 12. Even if 12 is going to be the smallest, four 12's along the tip in place of the 20, 16, and 12 that would otherwise be there might make a big difference. I found absolutely no benefit going with a 25 or even a 30 gathering guide with a reel like a 706 and it actually negatively impacted the performance of the rod. Others swear buy starting with the small gathering guide, however, I have never found anyone who builds like that who checks for line slap; I sould not got rid of line slap with a 30. As a kinda related aside, I have a buddy who has an arra 1205 wrapped with the older standard of 5 or 6 guides starting with a 50. He doesn't like the rod and almost never fishes it. The other night I decided to hand him the one I built using the new guide concept and he said it felt completely different than his. It is worth at least taping em on and trying it out.

[numbskull]

Originally Posted by Saltheart

How many guides will that SSU have built that way and how big are the smallest guides near the tip Mike?

Just for your interest, I built a SSU 1201mh using tnsg 10-10-10-Tvsg 16-25-Svsg 40 this winter for a reel with a 2.5" diameter spool (22mm reel seat). Spacing from tip is 5.5, 13,21.5,33,47,63.5 with the spool lip approx 33 from the collector, but a reel seat 22" from the butt to the reel stem which I found to be too short and ended up extending to 24" (for a rod length of 10'2"). It casts quite well, handles significant fish well and is substantially less tip heavy than the Lami setup. I have used it only with fireline so how it would do with powerpro I can't say. It did not do well casting a shocker (although I cast shockers all the time through 10's on conventional stuff). Looks strange with the nsgs.

I wouldn't advocate following this pattern exactly, I think it could be better (maybe with a 30HH-20H-12-12-12-12 all vsgs). I also suspect that it wouldn't do well with a 706 and mono. I think the stock Lami is set up conservatively to handle mono as well as braid, different sized reels and provide a strength reserve for highsticking so it has more and larger guides than an ideal new concept system on a rod dedicated to fishing braid.

Casual readers should also be aware that the fuji new concept system is much different than the lowrider system, which puts a small first guide way out the rod (47" from the reel) and was designed for big distance rods (12-15 ft) as far as I understand it. There are guys who have used it on rods as short as 9 feet....but they are experienced builders pushing the system into uncharted territory. In contrast, the new concept system establishes a choke point at the intersection of the reel shaft angle and rod (hence it is reel and reel seat specific), puts the smallest guide there, then continues the same size guide to the tip, then uses a collector 1/2 the spool diameter (which tends to end up pretty close to the reel) and 1-2 reduction guides to get the line down to the size of the choke guide. It's advantage is to get the braid under control faster, reduce guide loops, and make the rod less tip heavy and more responsive. Casting distance is supposedly not much better than the old cone of flight method used with mono, but that method is more prone to guide loops with braid.

For the record, I'm no authority on new guide systems (just read a fair amount on it this winter). I get the idea, however, that very few rod builders have a whole lot of experience building surf rods yet with either the new concept or lowrider options. Pretty sure that will change since the lightness and crispness makes the rod more pleasurable to fish.

[SAUERKRAUT]

Mr. ReelinRod: Thank you again for your insights on my shock leader question. For practical fishing, I hate shockers EVERY CAST; however, they save fish for me when I'm in the boulders. I actually have some good photos and a couple of dramatic souvenir shock leaders I save-- frayed, kinked and near severed and destroyed along their entire lenghs of 12 to 20 feet...but I got the fish unwrapped from a right angle turn from around some obstruction and landed. The extra heavy "shocker" braid is something I will try; but I don't envision braid of any pound test as good as mono for this type of abrasion abuse.

Bonds, Sauerkraut

[SeaWolf]

using size 12s as your running guides is probably the best bet if you plan on using a shock leader. it does depend how heavy your shock leader is and how large your knot is. i don't use a shock leader and most of the people i have built rods for do not either. have you considered using a heavier section of braid as your shock, say 80-100# and then use mono outside the tip? you would probably get a smaller knot using braid as your shocker. just a thought.

i wouldn't suggest using the lowrider system unless you are building a rod over 12', which is where the system was really designed. some have used it on shorter rods and it has worked, but it is not what the system was designed for. in 10 years, most rods could be built using this system. a lot of the reason you don't see it more is that the NE is slow to adopt change. i have not had any issues building rods using the concept system over the last several years. it yields a lighter, more responsive completed outfit.

[mikecc]

Originally Posted by Saltheart

How many guides will that SSU have built that way and how big are the smallest guides near the tip Mike?

Fuji BLCAG 20,16,(2)-12 ,(3)-10 & a 10 tip
I don't want to go with any #8 because I see to much failure in the rings.

[scottw]

no expert, only posting this because I don't know how many guys are fishing this setup or building them but thought you might want to hear feedback

Mike, I used 20-16-12-12-12-12-10tip on a 1266 loomis BMNAG's

42"reel to gathering guide then
17 3/4...9....8 1/2...8 1/4....7 1/4....7

I'm sure that this can be improved by someone more knowledgable

I've been throwing this w/ a bailess spheros 14000 and 50 lb power pro for about 100 trips this year and not a hitch, not even a single wind knot which I know causes a lot of headaches for guys and the only plug snapped off was my own fault rushing a cast ...smaller fish are fun because of the sensetivity of the top and lager fish seem to really have their weight distributed down the blank...it's a very light and powerful rod...I'd like to make an 11' this winter...

[numbskull]

Originally Posted by mikecc

Fuji BLCAG 20,16,(2)-12 ,(3)-10 & a 10 tip
I don't want to go with any #8 because I see to much failure in the rings.

Mike, just to avoid confusion, isn't this a "lowrider" setup, not a "new concept" setup (as you referred to in your initial post).

Likewise, Scottw, I think you've built a lowrider set up using new concept (BMNAG) guides, which is fine since it works. Fuji's instructions for their new concept guide spacing would use a larger guide much closer to the reel seat.

Again, there are now three accepted ways to set up a long spinning rod.....the standard time tested "cone of flight system", the more recent "new concept" system, and the still newer distance casting "low rider" system. It seems agreed that casting distance is best with a properly setup low rider system, but setting it up properly on rods less than 12 feet is still a work in progress (particularly when employing a wide spool reel like the emcast) and there remains the disadvantage of a long spool to gathering guide distance that distributes the load when fighting a large fish way up the blank.

[ProfessorM]

I'm so confused

[numbskull]

Originally Posted by ProfessorM

I'm so confused

The old system cones line down to the smallest guide which is at the at the tip.

The "new concept" cones the line down to an intersect point 1/2-2/3 way out the blank, then runs it to the tip with small guides (they can be really tiny if you want)

The "low rider" skips the gathering guide, uses long distance and braid's lack of memory to cone the line down to a small first guide well out the rod (I think Fuji advises no closer than 47"). Low rider guides (LCSG's) also employ a more elongated shape to reduce the risk of guide looping. IF you can get the guides positioned right and avoid line slap (not a small IF) the lowrider supposedly gives you the best distance.......but leaves a long section of unsupported blank (and sharp line angle under load) between the reel and first guide. Whether that matters or not, I don't know. Reelin Rod can probably tell you.

[scottw]

I thought I went to the Fuji site for the "concept' layout but you might be right , it may be more of a lowrider layout, I'll check my notes(yep, just found it " Basically, this is the Fuji Low Rider guide layout using regular MN guides", .... as mentioned above the lowrider system seemed more geared toward longer rods(12') for distance casting...I was under the impression that the BMNAG's and Concept guides are similar shape or design guides ? I didn't follow the layout exactly as I'd also found and extensive post(mentioned above) describing this type of setup and then adjusted with static deflection tests, laid them out and then fished them taped on for several weeks until I was happy with the way it fished and then twirled it up...sounds crazy but waterproof electrical tape stands up pretty well.....this layout seems to be extremely friendly to braid ....

Numbskull, your descriptions are pretty techincal...aren't the "Concepts" similar? smaller guides set closer to the blank which is possible because the line (braid) is under control unlike mono......

never mind, just reread you posts a few times, that's great stuff!

[SeaWolf]

blcag's are fuji lowrider guides with an alconite ring. they are also consider concept by fuji, at least how they are categorized. mnsg are concept guides using a sic ring and bmnag are the same, but use a alconite ring. there are a lot of "concept" guides out now from double foot to single foot. fuji is slowly discontinuing some of the older guide setups, such as the pst tips.

the fuji concept principle is about using a collector guide almost half the size as traditionally used and choke the line down quickly. then, using the same size running guide to the tip. usually there are 2-4 choke guides.

the lowrider was originally designed for longer surf spinning rods, those over 12'. the placement of the "catch guide" is about 47", but a lot of that depends on the angle of the reel's foot, line used, spool diameter, etc. recently, fuji has started to incorporate this system on rods under 9'. some people have built rods in the 10-11' range with this system and it has worked for them. this system can also be used for people building a dual purpose rod - spin and cast.

[ReelinRod]

Originally Posted by zimmy

I found absolutely no benefit going with a 25 or even a 30 gathering guide with a reel like a 706 and it actually negatively impacted the performance of the rod. Others swear buy starting with the small gathering guide, however, I have never found anyone who builds like that who checks for line slap; I sould not got rid of line slap with a 30.

Using such a large diameter reel starts you off with a huge handicap in controlling the line thrown off by it. This is a situation where the coils directly determine the first guide's distance from the reel.

If one were to put a 706 on a rod with just a tip-top and cast it would there be line slap? Perhaps in the first few coils coming off the reel depending on the smoothness of the release (and at the very end because of the shortness of the spool) but the coils would settle and form a predictable ever deceasing sized cone never touching the rod.

When you put a smaller guide in the same spot as the bigger guide you are eliminating you can create slap. Having line coils striking it at a hard angle creates an effect where the line, instead of being controlled by the guide is swept out into a coil larger than the line was before it hit the guide. Under high velocity this line trying to funnel itself into the guide will blow-by the guide and you get a guide wrap.

Anybody can try this; tape the reel on the opposite side of the reel seat and just run the line through the tip and carefully give it some moderate (not full power) casts and watch the line. Pick a spot where the line coils are about 45 - 50mm in diameter and tape a 40mm guide there (for a smaller diameter reel pick a spot with coils 35 - 40mm and tape a 30mm there). Static test for the rest. Give it some casts . . .

You will end up with a much different layout than what is on the other side of the rod, probably one fewer guide and much smoother and less problematic line flow.

Originally Posted by SAUERKRAUT

For practical fishing, I hate shockers EVERY CAST; however, they save fish for me when I'm in the boulders. I actually have some good photos and a couple of dramatic souvenir shock leaders I save-- frayed, kinked and near severed and destroyed along their entire lenghs of 12 to 20 feet...but I got the fish unwrapped from a right angle turn from around some obstruction and landed. The extra heavy "shocker" braid is something I will try; but I don't envision braid of any pound test as good as mono for this type of abrasion abuse.

I agree there are reasons to use a mono leader and I am not advocating the use of lowriders only, just using them as an example that people shouldn't be hesitant to buck tradition and go with smaller guides. Beginning with a 40 or 30 and ending with 12's is always better than starting with a 50 or more . . . The guides just need to be put in in the right spots. Try my exercise above.

Originally Posted by numbskull

IF you can get the guides positioned right and avoid line slap (not a small IF) the lowrider supposedly gives you the best distance.......but leaves a long section of unsupported blank (and sharp line angle under load) between the reel and first guide. Whether that matters or not, I don't know. Reelin Rod can probably tell you.

I'm not a big worrier about the unsupported area; I avoid high sticking like the plague and I just don't think that normal fishing conditions overstress the rod.

The biggest bass I have caught on the rod pictured above was 36lbs but it has red drum to 47 inches on it. The rod is under greatest stress during the cast and let's just say I put it through hell in that regard.

Here I am bombing out a baseball to my son with the 1507 (great fly practice for him ):

[joe the plumber]

[QUOTE=SeaWolf;621770]what size reel are you using? what pound test braid are you using? are you fishing around rocks or only on the beach?

ss wire guides have no place with braid

There you go again!!!

[Saltheart]

I forgot to come back to this after asking Mike T the question.

Mike has a low rider set up that may or may not be done following the concept layout. I can't tell if its concept without info on guide locations.

The low rider set up supposedly offers some benefits like no snagging of the very light braid if its really accelerated by a very hard cast. Some people call these wind knots but they are in fact the line overrunning the guide because its traveling so fast and cannot be choked into the guyide , usually because its too small or too close. This applies to too close to the reel for the gathering guide and any other guide down the length. The line can even overrun the tip so often a bigger tip ring is used. Supposedly the lowriders also offer the oppurtunity to use both a spinner and a conventional on the same rod but I doubt either is optimal if you try to do that.

I think the lowrider larger guides are cool and off course the first and maybe others need to be turned around backwards but the smaller LC style guides worry me because the feet are so far apart they tend to splint the bend in the blank which is dangerous near the tip IMO.

Anyway , there's a gazzilion ways to build a rod but the most important thing to remember is that is a fishing rod. Its not a tournament casting rod or a ring 10 entra yards out if a cast rod , its a fishing rod and you got to be sure you don't screw up any aspect of fishing for the small gains some of these guide layout systems offer. To me , if a layout night result in any amount of fishing down time , its probably not worth the risk.

[numbskull]

I've built and fished a lowrider setup on a GSB1321L using titanium T-LCSG since this thread was created, and I have been VERY impressed. For me, is not about casting distance (even though that probably improves a bit).......it is all about having a lighter more responsive rod that is much more enjoyable to fish.....and that it accomplishes in spades.

As for guide splinting, the size 8 lowriders near the tip don't have any perceptible effect on the bend of a surf rod with any power to it. As for lighter tip rods, you would not normally run the LCGs out that far, rather you would transition to a small running guide like the T-LDBGs.

For any rod 11 ft or longer you would be foolish not to at least test the T-LCSGs before building......unless you find the cost (about $150) prohibitive. Under 11 feet, it can supposedly be done, but not many people are talking how......and whether the casting benefits persist is uncertain.