Why do liberal universities honor murderers?

[spence]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

Kathy Bowdin was one of the Weather Underground terrorists who robbed a Brinks caro f $1.6 M, and in the process murdered 2 cops and a security guard, leaving I believe 8 kids to grow up without a Dad. What is she doing now? She is a professor at Columbia.

Her boss, terrorist Bill Ayers, is a professor of education (teaching future teachers, which is just great).

Wesleyan University honors convicted cop-killer Abu Mumia Jamal by letting him give a commencment address via video link. The same Wesleyan where Antonin Scalia was heckled and had condoms thrown at him.

Imagine for a second, if Holy Cross college honored an abortion clinic bomber by making him a professor. Can you IMAGINE the media reaction?

Spence, PaulS, someone please explain this to me, cuz I don't get it. I just don't get it.

Agree, there's a lot that you don't seem to get.

First...what's the point of this thread? How long has this information been fermenting in your belly such that you just had to get it out?

Kathy Boudin was sent to prison and served her term for being an accomplice to a theft that turned violent. What ever happened to a debt to society being paid in full?

I don't believe Bill Ayers was ever convicted of murder or terrorism. Certainly he was a radical back then, but did his actions ever actually kill anyone? I'd think to be a murderer you'd have to have killed someone. Also, it's worth noting that his actions weren't motivated by a hatred for America...it was what they saw as our complicit engagement in an unconscionable war. Had he been targeting abortion clinics you'd be spinning the other way.

Ayers wasn't Obama's political mentor, that's been debunked as an election year myth.

Mumai Abu-Jamal didn't speak at Wesleyan "The same Wesleyan where Antonin Scalia was heckled and had condoms thrown at him", he was invited to speak at The Evergreen State College. He wasn't chosen by the college, he was chosen by the GRADUATING CLASS of 1999 no less! While I can't say if he's guilty or innocent it does appear there's a significant amount of information that contests he had a fair trial.

Interestingly enough all three people share a common thread, regardless of their history they all appear pretty intelligent and have moved forward to share their experiences and help others.

As usual Jim, you've gotten pretty much every aspect of your post wrong...worse...that you casually throw out the T word without any real regard for context or meaning speaks volumes.

-spence

[scottw]

Originally Posted by spence

Agree, there's a lot that you don't seem to get.



Interestingly enough all three people share a common thread, regardless of their history they all appear pretty intelligent and have moved forward to share their experiences and help others.

-spence

right...criminals sharing their criminal experiences to "help" others....ignore their history....I bet it's tough for those who had family members killed or mamed to ignore their history


William Charles "Bill" Ayers (born December 26, 1944. In 1969 he co-founded the Weather Underground, a self-described communist revolutionary group[2] that conducted a campaign of bombing public buildings (ncluding police stations, the U.S. Capitol Building, and the Pentagon) during the 1960s and 1970s in response to U.S. involvement in the Vietnam War.

Ayers participated in the bombings of New York City Police Department headquarters in 1970, the United States Capitol building in 1971, and the Pentagon in 1972, as he noted in his 2001 book, Fugitive Days.

Obama and Ayers had a very close relationship...Obama has many "mentors" and none of them seem to like America very much and all seem to share radical leftist-marxist(self-described) views which they've spent their lives "sharing"......


I'll agree that they're "pretty intelligent"...but then again....so are most serial killers and many other criminals(regardless of their history)...so I'm not sure how that matters

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by scottw

Ayers participated in the bombings of New York City Police Department headquarters in 1970, the United States Capitol building in 1971, and the Pentagon in 1972, as he noted in his 2001 book, Fugitive Days.

And according to Spence, I am "casually" using the "t" word (terrorist). Spence doesn't feel that those who bomg public buildings to further a political cause, are terrorists.

Look the word up in the dictionary Spence.

[scottw]

he's actually provided the explanation to your question quite nicely which contiues to lend creedence your mental disorder contention but the "liberal" term in any historical sense of the word hardly applies to today's left...I can't call them liberals anymore...it's unfair to the word

America's left and democrat party is following and promoting a Progressive agenda which Detbuch has concisely pointed out....is the very definition of anti-American

4 more years.....

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by scottw

William Charles "Bill" Ayers (born December 26, 1944. In 1969 he co-founded the Weather Underground, a self-described communist revolutionary group[2] that conducted a campaign of bombing public buildings (ncluding police stations, the U.S. Capitol Building, and the Pentagon) during the 1960s and 1970s in response to U.S. involvement in the Vietnam War.

Ayers participated in the bombings of New York City Police Department headquarters in 1970, the United States Capitol building in 1971, and the Pentagon in 1972, as he noted in his 2001 book, Fugitive Days.

YO, SPENCE -

In light of what Scott posted, and in light iof the robbery that killed 2 cops and a security guard, let me ask you straight up...are the Weather Underground terrorists, or not?

You accused me of being "casual" in my using the terrorist label with these violent kooks. So please enlighten us...what is it that differentiates the Weather Underground from terrorists?

If those that bomb abortion clinincs are terrorists, and of course they are, I fail to see how the Weather Underground fails to meet the criteria. Please, don't keep that wisdom and knowledge to yourself...do the liberal thing, and share the wealth!

We're all ears, and are giddy with anticipation...

[spence]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

YO, SPENCE - You accused me of being "casual" in my using the terrorist label with these violent kooks. So please enlighten us...what is it that differentiates the Weather Underground from terrorists?

The actions of Ayers and others were more violent protest than anything else. They communicated their target in advance with a specific purpose. I don't believe anyone ever was injured from their actions aside from some of their own who apparently didn't practice safe bomb making...

That's not to say it's not violent, not wrong or something to admire...but to compare it to modern terrorism, where mass pain is inflicted often upon innocent's just isn't quite right...it's not the same thing.

I don't think Ayers was ever even convicted of any crimes. Boudin certainly was (a robbery at that) and served her time.

Are they being "honored" or just recognized for their recent work?

What's the point of the entire thread? I really can't believe you're mulling this stuff over at night. You've been played by an election year (2 elections ago even!) hoax and for some reason just can't let it go.

I'll give you this, your faith is strong.

-spence

[scottw]

they spent much of their adult lives as members of a terrorist organization that clearly stated their goals.....they did bomb, people did die and sustain injuries as a result of their organization and provocation...that you can dismiss this is very disturbing.. what you continue to spout in their defense is their after the fact excuses....it's not coincidental that they found refuge in higher education....which is the point of this thread

[JohnnyD]

Originally Posted by spence

The actions of Ayers and others were more violent protest than anything else. They communicated their target in advance with a specific purpose. I don't believe anyone ever was injured from their actions aside from some of their own who apparently didn't practice safe bomb making...

That's not to say it's not violent, not wrong or something to admire...but to compare it to modern terrorism, where mass pain is inflicted often upon innocent's just isn't quite right...it's not the same thing.

Quite relevant to this discussion and Monday's attack on Boston...

The Weather Underground Organization has been talked about quite a few times in the news regarding previous bombings on US soil.

The Weathermen were referred to during their time and in legacy as terrorist. Whether bombing to create fear (or as you downplay it, "in violent protest") or bombing to maim, they are still terrorist acts. One action does not mean the other is excluded from the definition.

Terrorism, by it's very definition, is "the systematic use of terror especially as a means of coercion."
Terrorism - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

So, please explain how the Weathermen's planning bombings of government buildings, the CA state senator's office and banks as retaliation for Laos, Hanoi, Vietnam and others were not acts of terror.

The entire purpose driving the actions of the WUO was proclaimed by them as "the destruction of US imperialism and achieve a classless world: world communism".
Weatherman (organization)

"The destruction of US imperialism"... boy, does that sound awfully familiar to current day terrorists.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by JohnnyD

So, please explain how the Weathermen's planning bombings of government buildings, the CA state senator's office and banks as retaliation for Laos, Hanoi, Vietnam and others were not acts of terror.

.

Let me answer for Spence...

"Because even though the Weather Underground's actions are precisely consistent with any rational definition of terrorism, if I conceded they were terrorists, that would be assigning blame to those on my side, and I cannot bring myself to do that."

Spence, you are precious...

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by spence

The actions of Ayers and others were more violent protest than anything else. They communicated their target in advance with a specific purpose. I don't believe anyone ever was injured from their actions aside from some of their own who apparently didn't practice safe bomb making...

To think you can set off bombs merely for protest and that eventually someone wouldn't be injured, or killed, is worse than naïve. It is, as you say, radical and violent. One can change, however, and "grow up" which is what we are supposed to assume these people did.

That's not to say it's not violent, not wrong or something to admire...but to compare it to modern terrorism, where mass pain is inflicted often upon innocent's just isn't quite right...it's not the same thing.

The comparison is not to the immediate physical results, but to the eventual purpose.

I don't think Ayers was ever even convicted of any crimes. Boudin certainly was (a robbery at that) and served her time.

Ayers, himself, questions the legality of what they did, convicted or not, and the "robbery at that", for which Boudin served her time, shortened through the grace of a plea bargain, involved being a willing accomplice to killing and maiming.

Are they being "honored" or just recognized for their recent work?

And what would that recent work be? Is it essentially the same work as that of their "misguided youth" but with the cover of academic respectability. Do they still want to bring down imperialist, capitalist America, and transform it into a socialist, Marxist system? Ayers still "admires" Marx. What are they teaching under cover of liberalism? Have they merely transformed from naïve, violent radicals to respectable mainstream progressives that have found a home in a fellow-traveler ideology which has more peacefully and effectively transformed this country in the direction they wish to go? And, like most "controllers," have they found life richer and more influential at the top of the heap than the bottom? And yes, the point of this thread is the connection of academia to the growth of progressivism. It is the original home of that movement and its greatest proponent and facilitator.

What's the point of the entire thread? I really can't believe you're mulling this stuff over at night. You've been played by an election year (2 elections ago even!) hoax and for some reason just can't let it go.

And you are being played by an older movement, despite your seeming dislike of oldness and infatuation of new, "smart" stuff. You seem to view progressivism as something new (perhaps the title mesmerizes you) when it is older now in this country than the Constitution was when the progressives began their assault on our founding. But it does evolve. It is becoming more dictatorial than the original progressives intended. Or maybe they did intend it so.

I'll give you this, your faith is strong.

-spence

That is the nature of faith. Lack of faith, lack of belief in something enduring, makes strength irrelevant in a shifting world of relativity.

[spence]

Originally Posted by detbuch

To think you can set off bombs merely for protest and that eventually someone wouldn't be injured, or killed, is worse than naïve. It is, as you say, radical and violent. One can change, however, and "grow up" which is what we are supposed to assume these people did.

Change or in the case of Boudin perhaps rehabilitate.

I think emphasis must be placed though on their actual actions vs speculation...that they used small bombs hidden in out of the way locations (I've read a bathroom vent was the most common) with the threat phoned in advance...clearly shows the intent was not to kill as much as make a very dramatic statement.

The comparison is not to the immediate physical results, but to the eventual purpose.

To stop the war? Oh yes, a handful of college students were out to overthrow the US Government via violent protest.

Ayers, himself, questions the legality of what they did, convicted or not, and the "robbery at that", for which Boudin served her time, shortened through the grace of a plea bargain, involved being a willing accomplice to killing and maiming.

And Boudin has expressed her regret for her actions, served 22 years and appears to have moved on.

And what would that recent work be? Is it essentially the same work as that of their "misguided youth" but with the cover of academic respectability. Do they still want to bring down imperialist, capitalist America, and transform it into a socialist, Marxist system? Ayers still "admires" Marx.

So Boudin is subliminally populating her left wing views with social work on HIV, women in prison, kids with incarcerated parents and literacy and education in prison?

I'll bet Ayers got his "Citizen of the Year Award" from the city of Chicago for his efforts to spread the word about the Reds through education reform. Millions of adults are now sleeper radicals ready to jump at the sign.

To be honest I find it more impressive that these people shed their violent past to be productive members of society. In some regards they're more model citizens than many. Is Ayers still a hard left winger? I'd bet he certainly is...that doesn't mean he doesn't have a place.

And yes, the point of this thread is the connection of academia to the growth of progressivism. It is the original home of that movement and its greatest proponent and facilitator.

As Nebe indicated, doesn't that make some sense? Perhaps a better question is if this is a bad thing...

Is our academic system pumping out an army of hardcore progressives? Doesn't seem like it, in fact, our country is still in the same center right position it has been for quite some time...even with the generational shift on some progressive issues like gays or pot.

And you are being played by an older movement, despite your seeming dislike of oldness and infatuation of new, "smart" stuff.

You're stereotyping.

You seem to view progressivism as something new (perhaps the title mesmerizes you) when it is older now in this country than the Constitution was when the progressives began their assault on our founding. But it does evolve. It is becoming more dictatorial than the original progressives intended. Or maybe they did intend it so.

Not at all, I've questioned many times at what point do elements of progressive ideas become part of the mundane fabric and are now conservative?

The reality is that it's highly relative to the behavior of the practitioners at a certain point of time and from a certain perspective. Observations made from a static reference frame are academic, not without merit, but also potentially suspect.

-spence

[scottw]

Originally Posted by spence

So Boudin is subliminally populating her left wing views with social work on HIV, women in prison, kids with incarcerated parents and literacy and education in prison?

I'll bet Ayers got his "Citizen of the Year Award" from the city of Chicago for his efforts to spread the word about the Reds through education reform.

Is Ayers still a hard left winger? I'd bet he certainly is...that doesn't mean he doesn't have a place. . -spence

.



[43] The members of Weatherman targeted high school and college students, assuming they would be willing to rebel against the authoritative figures who had oppressed them, including cops, principals, and bosses.[44] Weather aimed to develop roots within the class struggle, targeting white working-class youths. The younger members of the working class became the focus of the organizing effort because they felt the oppression strongly in regards to the military draft, low-wage jobs, and schooling.[45]

Schools became a common place of recruitment for the movement. In direct actions, dubbed Jailbreaks, Weather members invaded educational institutions as a means by which to recruit high school and college students. The motivation of these jailbreaks was the organization's belief that school was where the youth were oppressed by the system and where they learned to tolerate society’s faults instead of rise against them. According to “Prairie Fire”, young people are channeled, coerced, misled, miseducated, misused in the school setting. It is in schools that the youth of the nation become alienated from the authentic processes of learning about the world [46]

Factions of the Weatherman organization began recruiting members by applying their own strategies. Women's groups such as The Motor City Nine and Cell 16 took the lead in various recruitment efforts. Roxanne Dunbar-Ortiz, a member of the radical women's liberation group, Cell 16, spoke about her personal recruitment agenda saying that she wanted their group to go out in every corner of the country and tell women the truth, recruit the local people, poor and working-class people, in order to build a new society [47]


In June 1974, the Weather Underground released a 151-page volume titled Prairie Fire, which stated: "We are a guerrilla organization [...] We are communist women and men underground in the United States [...]"[57]

Larry Grathwohl, an undercover FBI agent who infiltrated The Weather Underground, claims Ayers told him where to plant bombs. He says Ayers was bent on overthrowing the government.

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by spence

I think emphasis must be placed though on their actual actions vs speculation...that they used small bombs hidden in out of the way locations (I've read a bathroom vent was the most common) with the threat phoned in advance...clearly shows the intent was not to kill as much as make a very dramatic statement.

So, Spence, if I am egregiously annoyed by your constant rationalizing, would it be alright with you if I placed a small bomb in your bathroom vent to dramatically state my displeasure? Is that how we resolve differences? It seems to me that those who use violence as a method of discussion are not so much interested in coming to a mutual agreement, but rather want to force you through fear and intimidation to their way. And, yes, it is naïve to think that someone would not eventually be hurt or killed by the innocent blasting of bombs.

To stop the war? Oh yes, a handful of college students were out to overthrow the US Government via violent protest.

It was a lot more than a handful. It was more than a single organization. It was more than a single new idea. It was a gradual coalescence of various socialist ideologies which desired to speed up the transformation of American culture and governance which was already underway. The progressive movement was already long into the transformation. The various Marxist and socialist groups had already infiltrated segments of society and all together were influencing the radicalization of idealistic youths. And that has not stopped. The progressive transformation has so nearly changed the mores and system of governance that it can provide the umbrella for most leftist ideologies without the need for further physical violence. And it has been gradual enough over a "handful" of generations that it is becoming the "new norm."

And Boudin has expressed her regret for her actions, served 22 years and appears to have moved on.
So Boudin is subliminally populating her left wing views with social work on HIV, women in prison, kids with incarcerated parents and literacy and education in prison?

All subjects can be taught from a point of view, whether blatant or subtle. And can be interwoven with various comments along the pedagogic way that trend the learning toward that point of view. Almost subliminal at times, in your face at others. But always with intention. An intention that is informed nearly unconsciously and effortlessly by years of thought and experience. You can be in the presence of two different people, one from the "right" and one from the "left," both discussing the same subject in an effort to be objective and strictly subject oriented, but given enough time, you will be able to see a difference in what is "taught" by their discussions.

I'll bet Ayers got his "Citizen of the Year Award" from the city of Chicago for his efforts to spread the word about the Reds through education reform. Millions of adults are now sleeper radicals ready to jump at the sign.

It is no longer necessary to have "sleeper cells." Especially in large, progressive, urban areas. Progressive politics dominate them. Progressivism is the home of various "leftist" movements here, and the progress is ongoing. There is no longer the urgency for instant reform. They know it will take time and patience and continuous effort. They will, eventually totally transform this society, and eventually, they hope, the world. They are persistent and finding power in unity under the umbrella of progressivism.

To be honest I find it more impressive that these people shed their violent past to be productive members of society. In some regards they're more model citizens than many. Is Ayers still a hard left winger? I'd bet he certainly is...that doesn't mean he doesn't have a place.

It is not as impressive when they are welcomed back into a world they helped to change. They have shed violence because it is no longer needed. Being productive is easier for them now since they have been given the levers of persuasion. They can "produce" their world view peacefully. That is their place.

As Nebe indicated, doesn't that make some sense? Perhaps a better question is if this is a bad thing...

That is THE question. The question deserves a discussion, not an inference.

Is our academic system pumping out an army of hardcore progressives? Doesn't seem like it, in fact, our country is still in the same center right position it has been for quite some time...even with the generational shift on some progressive issues like gays or pot.

The "center" right has shifted dramatically over time, toward the progressive and progressive "right."

You're stereotyping.

Just making an observation based on the limited and well-couched views you post. Is it any more stereotyping than how you accused Jim in CT of being "played."

Not at all, I've questioned many times at what point do elements of progressive ideas become part of the mundane fabric and are now conservative?

How has something that has been changed been conserved. How is a fabric that is constantly changing conserved rather than being replaced.

The reality is that it's highly relative to the behavior of the practitioners at a certain point of time and from a certain perspective. Observations made from a static reference frame are academic, not without merit, but also potentially suspect.

-spence

Yes, I realize that your reference frame is relative. That you observe from a constantly shifting frame of reference. You have several times stated contradictions to previous views. If called on it, you justify it by saying its a matter of context. It does move the conversation on without having to explain.

[Jim in CT]

[QUOTE=spence;995395.that they used small bombs hidden in out of the way locations [/QUOTE]

OK, so now you are a munitions expert.

The bombs that blew up in the brownstone where the Weather Underground were living, were not small bombs.

They almost killeed their next door neighbors as well, who happened to be Mr and Mrs Dustin Hoffman.

Spence, you are entitled to your own opinions, of course. However, tyou should not be making things up, out of thin air, to support your claims. You should hold yourself to a higher standard than that.

I sometimes wonder if you aren't just yanking our chains, because even the kooks at MSNBC wouldn't bend over as far backwards as you are.

Here is an article with some facts that debunk your claim about the bombs being small. As if that matters. So according to spence, planting bombs in public places does not make you unfit to teach children, as long as the payload of those bombs is below a certain yield. Spence, what's the maximum permissable payload, if a terrorist wants to be a kindergarten teacher after he retires from terrorism?


Greenwich Village townhouse explosion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"a brick-by-brick search of the rubble uncovered 57 sticks of dynamite, four 12-inch (300 mm) pipe bombs packed with dynamite, and 30 blasting caps. The pipe bombs and several eight-stick packages of dynamite had fuses already attached. Also found were timing devices rigged from alarm clocks, maps of the tunnel network underneath Columbia University"

Spence have you no shame? Have you no shame at all?

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by spence

The actions of Ayers and others were more violent protest than anything else. They communicated their target in advance with a specific purpose. I don't believe anyone ever was injured from their actions aside from some of their own who apparently didn't practice safe bomb making...

That's not to say it's not violent, not wrong or something to admire...but to compare it to modern terrorism, where mass pain is inflicted often upon innocent's just isn't quite right...it's not the same thing.

I don't think Ayers was ever even convicted of any crimes. Boudin certainly was (a robbery at that) and served her time.

Are they being "honored" or just recognized for their recent work?

What's the point of the entire thread? I really can't believe you're mulling this stuff over at night. You've been played by an election year (2 elections ago even!) hoax and for some reason just can't let it go.

I'll give you this, your faith is strong.

-spence

"I don't believe anyone ever was injured from their actions aside from some of their own who apparently didn't practice safe bomb making"

They planted bombs, Spence. They planted multiple bombs in pubilc buildings, as part of an attempt to violently overthrow the federal government. If those bombs didn't go off because of their own ineptitude, you give them credit for that?

"but to compare it to modern terrorism, where mass pain is inflicted often upon innocent's just isn't quite right...it's not the same thing."

In case you missed it from the last point...the only reason why they didn't kill people, is because their bombs didn't go off. Their intent was to kill people in furtherance of a political objective. Intent is what defines a terrorist, not just the resulting violence. Jeffrey Dahmer was not a terrorist. The Boston Strangler was not a terrorist.

"What's the point of the entire thread?"

Since your reading comprehension is off, I'll repeat. My intent was to ask why elite liberal universities honor murderers (like Bowdin and Abu Mumia Jamal) and heckle conservatives who have not hurt anyone(like Antonin Scalia and Ann Coulter).

Your response was that it's not an honor to make someone a professor at Columbia, and that the Weather Underground aren't all that bad because their bombs didn't go off through no intent of their own, and that Abu Mumia Jamal didn't get a fair trial in your opinion.

"I really can't believe you're mulling this stuff over at night."

I asked the question of whether or not mass murderers *(and those, like Ayers, who specifically set out to be mass-murderers) are fit to teach our children. I think that's a valid question. You disagree, presumably because nothing that a liberal does is worth scrutinizing.

"You've been played by an election year (2 elections ago even!) hoax "

OK. Spence, I contend that Bill Ayers hosted a political fundraiser for Obama (very early in Obama's political career) in his home. Is that true or is that a hoax? You tell us, please...

[spence]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

In case you missed it from the last point...the only reason why they didn't kill people, is because their bombs didn't go off. Their intent was to kill people in furtherance of a political objective. Intent is what defines a terrorist, not just the resulting violence. Jeffrey Dahmer was not a terrorist. The Boston Strangler was not a terrorist.

Oh I do believe that bombs did indeed go off. They didn't kill people because the targets were warned in advance.

If your intent was to kill people, why would you warn them?

Since your reading comprehension is off, I'll repeat. My intent was to ask why elite liberal universities honor murderers (like Bowdin and Abu Mumia Jamal) and heckle conservatives who have not hurt anyone(like Antonin Scalia and Ann Coulter).

As I said before, who's being "honored"? In Boudin's case it sounds like she just has a job. Granted it's at a good school but does her effort over the past 25 years out weight the previous 10?

Ayers appears to have really dedicated his life to positive works.

In the case of Jamal it was the students, apparently enough of who think he didn't get a fair trial and admire him for not giving up and working to help others from prison.

I asked the question of whether or not mass murderers *(and those, like Ayers, who specifically set out to be mass-murderers) are fit to teach our children. I think that's a valid question. You disagree, presumably because nothing that a liberal does is worth scrutinizing.

None of these people were "mass murders".

OK. Spence, I contend that Bill Ayers hosted a political fundraiser for Obama (very early in Obama's political career) in his home. Is that true or is that a hoax? You tell us, please...

For once please do your own research, there's plenty of information online that debunks all these claims.

-spence

[scottw]

Originally Posted by spence

For once please do your own research, there's plenty of information online that debunks all these claims. -spence

it's obvious that you either haven't read much yourself or you are simply nuts....what these three "share" it that they are or were violent left wing extremists......they are defended, admired, excused and "honored" for their work as left wing extremists and not whatever they've been doing post-imprisonment or escape thanks to good fortune or circumstance....Ayers is an icon in his radical little neighborhood in Chicago for his rage against the system and celebrated for his slipperiness, Obama types want to cozy up to him at cocktail parties not because of his work in education but because he's a folk hero to the radical leftists and represents what they aspire to although most have put on a suit and learned verbal jousting and invaded academia, law and government these days but they share the same ideaology that had Ayers and his friends declaring a state of war against the US


do build nail bombs because you really don't intend to hurt anyone?

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by spence

Oh I do believe that bombs did indeed go off. They didn't kill people because the targets were warned in advance.

If your intent was to kill people, why would you warn them?



As I said before, who's being "honored"? In Boudin's case it sounds like she just has a job. Granted it's at a good school but does her effort over the past 25 years out weight the previous 10?

Ayers appears to have really dedicated his life to positive works.

In the case of Jamal it was the students, apparently enough of who think he didn't get a fair trial and admire him for not giving up and working to help others from prison.



None of these people were "mass murders".



For once please do your own research, there's plenty of information online that debunks all these claims.

-spence

"If your intent was to kill people, why would you warn them? "

Can you please support that?

What about the bombs that went off in the house where the terrorists lived, killing some of them? The police found evidence that the intended targets were Fort Dix (army base) and Columbia University. No evidence that they were going to forewarn their intended victims that I know of.

How about the 2 cops and the security guard that Miss Bowdin helped murder in the Brinks robbery? Did she warn them, but they failed to heed the warning?

"Granted it's at a good school but does her effort over the past 25 years out weight the previous 10?"

I have no idea, since you didn't podt details of all the "god things" she has done in th elast 10 years.

"As I said before, who's being "honored"? In Boudin's case it sounds like she just has a job"

A 'job' for an ex-felon is picking up dog crap or scrubbing toilets. A full professorship is an honor. Spence, you go ahead and ask those Columbia professors just have a 'job', or if they feel their is priviledge and prestige bestowed upon them.

"Ayers appears to have really dedicated his life to positive works."

I can only presume you are referring to the fact that Ayers has hosted fundraisers. You are forgetting about the planting of bombs and preaching violence as a means to a political end. Details, shme-tails.

"None of these people were "mass murders".

Kathy Bowdin is. And Bill Ayers is not, only because he failed to achieve hsi stated goal, a goal which he tried very hard to carry out.

You are reaching new lows, here. Bill Ayers has dedicated his life to positive public service, and nothing more. There's nothing else on his resume, Spence?

Unbelievable.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by spence

Ayers appears to have really dedicated his life to positive works.

In which, we see support for why I say liberalism is a mental disorder.

I can't get away from that statement, i just can't.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by spence

. I don't believe anyone ever was injured from their actions
-spence

You've brought this up a couple of times here. You are sayng that Ayers isn't the moral equivalent of a homicidal maniac, because he didn't kill anyone. Butthe only reason he didn't kill anyone, is because his bombs (planted with the intent to kill) didn't go off.

Do you really believe that?

Let's put that in context of what happened in Boston. If that murderer did everything the same...formulating his plan, research, decision-making, assembling the bomb, planting the bomb...but the bomb didn't detonate because he forgot to connect 2 wires...does that make him less evil, less of a homocisial maniac, more fit to teach your children, than we view that person today?

If all that matters is the body count (and intent isn't pertinent), what do you think of Ted Kennedy? He has just as many dead bodies in his wake as James Earl Ray (who murdered Martin Luther King), so do you view those 2 men the same way? In your eyes, are they equally fit to teach your children?

In terms of moral culpability, it obviously doesn't matter that the Weather Underground didn't kill anyone. The act of planting the bombs, with the intent they had, is what makes them homicidal terrorists. Not the results...The outcome speaks to their ineptitude, not to their moral culpability.

[Jim in CT]

This is too precious...when a few weather Underground terrorists were killed making bombs (lots of dynamite mixed with nails for the bombs), there are reports that the bombs were to be used on 2 targets. An NCO dance at the Army base in Fort Dix NJ, and at the Columbia University library.

Why is this hysterical? Because one ofthe terrorists who survived that bomb blast was Kathy Bowdin, who participated in mass murder during the Brinks armored car robbery. Where does she work now?

Wait for it...Columbia University.

One can only wonder...if Kathy Bowdin had successully blown up the Columbia library (say a few dead kids and faculty) would the university still have made her a professor? Maybe they would have only made her an adjunct professor instead of tenured? Or maybe killing a few cops makes up for trying to blow up part of the university she now works for...

Unbelievable...

Greenwich Village townhouse explosion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[scottw]

they we're building nail bombs when they blew themselves up and were suspected in previous nail bombings....I'm no bomb expert but I think you build a nail bomb to cause maximum casualties????

Spence's definition of "non-violent" protest I guess....


similar rhetoric to today's terrorists
similar tactics
similar targets


they would have been really have been something I bet if they had the internets for "pretty smart" research instead of having to travel to Cuber for bomb making training and funding from our enemies

I'm pretty sure that the American who Obama ordered need to get "two in the hat" via drone had not actually killed anyone himself either...he was just motivating others in unrelated, non-terrorist workplace violence and stuff

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by spence

Agree, there's a lot that you don't seem to get.

First...what's the point of this thread? How long has this information been fermenting in your belly such that you just had to get it out?

Kathy Boudin was sent to prison and served her term for being an accomplice to a theft that turned violent. What ever happened to a debt to society being paid in full?

I don't believe Bill Ayers was ever convicted of murder or terrorism. Certainly he was a radical back then, but did his actions ever actually kill anyone? I'd think to be a murderer you'd have to have killed someone. Also, it's worth noting that his actions weren't motivated by a hatred for America...it was what they saw as our complicit engagement in an unconscionable war. Had he been targeting abortion clinics you'd be spinning the other way.

Ayers wasn't Obama's political mentor, that's been debunked as an election year myth.

Mumai Abu-Jamal didn't speak at Wesleyan "The same Wesleyan where Antonin Scalia was heckled and had condoms thrown at him", he was invited to speak at The Evergreen State College. He wasn't chosen by the college, he was chosen by the GRADUATING CLASS of 1999 no less! While I can't say if he's guilty or innocent it does appear there's a significant amount of information that contests he had a fair trial.

Interestingly enough all three people share a common thread, regardless of their history they all appear pretty intelligent and have moved forward to share their experiences and help others.

As usual Jim, you've gotten pretty much every aspect of your post wrong...worse...that you casually throw out the T word without any real regard for context or meaning speaks volumes.

-spence

"what's the point of this thread?"

Ah yes. When you know a conservative is correct, you respond with "so what?"

"How long has this information been fermenting in your belly such that you just had to get it out?"

This news came out this past week.

"for being an accomplice to a theft that turned violent. What ever happened to a debt to society being paid in full?"

Now THAT, Spence, is world-class spin. You neglected to point out that she assisted in the murder of 2 police officers and a security guard. Are details, shmee-tails.

I have no problem with parole and rehabilitation. But that's not the same thing as HONORING someone with a post educating children.

"I'd think to be a murderer you'd have to have killed someone."

Spence, please point out where I said Bill Ayers was a murderer? I did say he was, by his own admission, a leader of the weather Underground, which did murder people.

"Mumai Abu-Jamal didn't speak at Wesleyan "

I said he spoke via a video feed, and that is true. Are you literally making up this stuff to refute me?

"Interestingly enough all three people share a common thread"

Yes. Violent, liberal radicals, who are still glorified by your side.

"all appear pretty intelligent "

Based on WHAT? How did you arrive at that conclusion? How do you know Abu Mumia Jamal is intelligent, did you give him an IQ test on death row?


"that you casually throw out the T word"

OK. So according to you, the Weather Underground were not terrorists? Please explain why not.

I don't use that word casually. It is you who refuses to use that word when it appropeiately applies to those who share your ideology.

One of your moset deranged diatribes ever, and that is saying something.

[scottw]

Originally Posted by spence

Agree, there's a lot that you don't seem to get.


Also, it's worth noting that his actions weren't motivated by a hatred for America...Spence, these people were motivated not only by the Vietnam War but also by their love and admiration of Communism, Marx and Lenin etc. which is very consistent in their rhetoric and writings, they allied with Cuba, North Vietnam, China and dreamt of and took action to presumably overthrow our system of government/Constitution and institute a communist/marxist form of government that they found preferrable(sounds a little too familiar)...which part of America did they not hate?..probably just the part where their rich parents were able to fund their radicalism and the freedom that America offered to express themselves I guess[/COLOR]

As usual Jim, you've gotten pretty much every aspect of your post wrong...worse...that you casually throw out the T word without any real regard for context or meaning speaks volumes.

-spence

The Weather Underground Organization (WUO), commonly known as the Weather Underground, was an American radical left organization founded on the Ann Arbor campus of the University of Michigan. Originally called Weatherman, the group became known colloquially as the Weathermen. Weatherman first organized in 1969 as a faction of Students for a Democratic Society (SDS)[2] composed for the most part of the national office leadership of SDS and their supporters.

Their goal was to create a clandestine revolutionary party for the overthrow of the US government.[3]

With revolutionary positions characterized by Black liberation rhetoric,[2] the group conducted a campaign of bombings through the mid-1970s, including aiding the jailbreak and escape of Timothy Leary. The "Days of Rage", their first public demonstration on October 8, 1969, was a riot in Chicago timed to coincide with the trial of the Chicago Seven. In 1970 the group issued a "Declaration of a State of War" against the United States government, under the name "Weather Underground Organization" (WUO).[4]

At an SDS convention in Chicago on June 18, 1969, the National Office attempted to persuade unaffiliated delegates not to endorse a takeover of SDS by Progressive Labor who had packed the convention with their supporters.[8] At the beginning of the convention, two position papers were passed out by the National Office leadership, one a revised statement of Klonksy's RYM manifesto, the other called "You Don't Need a Weatherman to Know Which Way the Wind Blows". The latter document outlined the position of the group that would become the Weathermen. It had been signed by Karen Ashley, Bill Ayers, Bernardine Dohrn, John Jacobs, Jeff Jones, Gerry Long, Howie Machtinger, Jim Mellen, Terry Robbins, Mark Rudd, and Steve Tappis. The document called for creating a clandestine revolutionary party.

"The most important task for us toward making the revolution, and the work our collectives should engage in, is the creation of a mass revolutionary movement, without which a clandestine revolutionary party will be impossible. A revolutionary mass movement is different from the traditional revisionist mass base of "sympathizers". Rather it is akin to the Red Guard in China, based on the full participation and involvement of masses of people in the practice of making revolution; a movement with a full willingness to participate in the violent and illegal struggle."[9]

"Weatherman would shove the war down their dumb, fascist throats and show them, while we were at it, how much better we were than them, both tactically and strategically, as a people. In an all-out civil war over Vietnam and other fascist U.S. imperialism, we were going to bring the war home. 'Turn the imperialists' war into a civil war', in Lenin's words. And we were going to kick ass".

In July 1969, 30 members of Weatherman leadership traveled to Cuba and met with North Vietnamese representatives to gain from their revolutionary experience. The North Vietnamese requested armed political action in order to stop the U.S. Government's war in Vietnam. Subsequently, they accepted funding, training, recommendations on tactics and slogans from Cuba, and perhaps explosives as well.

The "Flint War Council," was a series of meetings of the Weather Underground Organization and associates in Flint, Michigan, that took place from 27–31 December 1969.[60] During these meetings, the decisions were made for the Weather Underground Organization to go underground [22] and to "engage in guerilla warfare against the U.S. government."[61] This decision was made in response to increased pressure from law enforcement,[62] and a belief that underground guerilla warfare was the best way to combat the U.S. government.[61]

On February 16, 1970 a nail bomb placed on a window ledge of the Park Police substation in the Upper Haight neighborhood of San Francisco exploded at 10:45 p.m. The blast killed police Sergeant Brian McDonnell. Law enforcement suspected the Weather Underground but was unable to prove conclusively that the organization was involved.[64] A second officer, Robert Fogarty, was partially blinded by the bomb’s shrapnel. Secret federal grand juries were convened in 2001 and again in 2009 to re-open the Park Precinct cold case in an attempt to again tie WUO members Billy Ayers, Bernadine Dohrn, Howie Machtinger and others to the deadly bombing.[65] Ultimately, it was concluded that members of the Black Liberation Army, whom WUO members affiliated with while underground, were responsible for not only this action but also the bombing of another police precinct in San Francisco as well as bombing the Catholic Church funeral services of the police officer killed in the Park Precinct bombing in the early summer of 1970.

probably not coincidentally, three members were killed the next month when a nail bomb that they were construction exploded in their safe house apartment

On March 6, 1970, during preparations for the bombing of a Non-Commissioned Officers’ (NCO) dance at the Fort Dix U.S. Army base and for Butler Library at Columbia University,[2] there was an explosion in a Greenwich Village safe house when the nail bomb being constructed prematurely detonated for unknown reasons. WUO members Diana Oughton, Ted Gold, and Terry Robbins died in the explosion.

An FBI report later stated that the group had possessed enough explosive to "level ... both sides of the street".

The bomb preparations have been pointed out by critics of the claim that the Weatherman group did not try to take lives with its bombings. Harvey Klehr, the Andrew W. Mellon professor of politics and history at Emory University in Atlanta, said in 2003, "The only reason they were not guilty of mass murder is mere incompetence. I don't know what sort of defense that is."

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by spence

Agree, there's a lot that you don't seem to get.

First...what's the point of this thread? How long has this information been fermenting in your belly such that you just had to get it out?

Kathy Boudin was sent to prison and served her term for being an accomplice to a theft that turned violent. What ever happened to a debt to society being paid in full?

I don't believe Bill Ayers was ever convicted of murder or terrorism. Certainly he was a radical back then, but did his actions ever actually kill anyone? I'd think to be a murderer you'd have to have killed someone. Also, it's worth noting that his actions weren't motivated by a hatred for America...it was what they saw as our complicit engagement in an unconscionable war. Had he been targeting abortion clinics you'd be spinning the other way.

Ayers wasn't Obama's political mentor, that's been debunked as an election year myth.

Mumai Abu-Jamal didn't speak at Wesleyan "The same Wesleyan where Antonin Scalia was heckled and had condoms thrown at him", he was invited to speak at The Evergreen State College. He wasn't chosen by the college, he was chosen by the GRADUATING CLASS of 1999 no less! While I can't say if he's guilty or innocent it does appear there's a significant amount of information that contests he had a fair trial.

Interestingly enough all three people share a common thread, regardless of their history they all appear pretty intelligent and have moved forward to share their experiences and help others.

As usual Jim, you've gotten pretty much every aspect of your post wrong...worse...that you casually throw out the T word without any real regard for context or meaning speaks volumes.

-spence

"it's worth noting that his (Ayers') actions weren't motivated by a hatred for America"

So what motivated him? It wasn't a desire to lead a violent revolt against the feds? .

"Had he (Ayers) been targeting abortion clinics you'd be spinning the other way"

Also stupid and demonstrably false. I have said many times that those who bomb abortion clinics are clearly terrorists.

I look at things objectively Spence. It is you, not me, who is completely, 100% blinded by ideology.

[scottw]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

"it's worth noting that his (Ayers') actions weren't motivated by a hatred for America"

So what motivated him? It wasn't a desire to lead a violent revolt against the feds? .

if you read anything about Ayers and his fellow travellers they were motivted by an intense dislike of the American form of government and Capitalism and "American Imperialism"...on and on...much the same rhetoric that enemies of America have used to this day...the Veitnam War was simply a vehical that they used to launch and further their agenda, recruiting and fuel for their rage....they intended "fundamental transformation" of the American system and decided that violent means were acceptable....they've since changed their "posture", but not their ideaology

"Had he (Ayers) been targeting abortion clinics you'd be spinning the other way"

Also stupid and demonstrably false. I have said many times that those who bomb abortion clinics are clearly terrorists.

clearly, but Spence's ability to find excusable, acceptable or justified certain actions based on ideaology and completely overlook facts has him supposing that you do the same

I look at things objectively Spence. this is probably dangerous for any of us to state It is you, not me, who is completely, 100% blinded by ideology.

there is a lot that is revealing.....

[scottw]

Ms. Boudin has a fascinating Wiki page....


highlights.....


Her great-uncle was Louis B. Boudin, a Marxist theorist.

Her father, attorney Leonard Boudin, had represented such controversial clients as Judith Coplon, Fidel Castro, and Paul Robeson.[2] A National Lawyers Guild attorney, Leonard Boudin was the law partner of Victor Rabinowitz, himself counsel to numerous left-wing organizations.

1965, her last year at Bryn Mawr was spent studying in the Soviet Union. She was paid 75 rubles a month by the Soviet government and, according to her résumé, taught on a Soviet collective farm.


In the 1960s and 1970s, Boudin became heavily involved with the Weather Underground, along with Cathy Wilkerson, was a survivor of the 1970 Greenwich Village townhouse explosion, the premature detonation of a nail bomb that had been intended for a soldiers' dance at Fort Dix, New Jersey.[3] Boudin was 27 at the time.

A declassified FBI report on foreign contacts of the Weather Underground Organization produced by the FBI’s Chicago Field Office reported that, "On February 10, 1976, a source in a position to possess such information advised that Leonard Boudin ... had indicated to a friend that Kathie [sic] was presently in Cuba."[citation needed] The law firm of Rabinowitz, Boudin, Standard, Krinsky & Lieberman, P.C., provide legal representation for the Cuban government in the United States.

In 1981, when Kathy Boudin was 38 years old, she and several members of the Weather Underground and the Black Liberation Army robbed a Brinks armored car at the Nanuet Mall, in Nanuet, New York. After Boudin dropped her infant son, Chesa, at a baby sitter's, she took the wheel of the getaway vehicle, a U-Haul truck.

She waited in a nearby parking lot as her heavily armed accomplices took another vehicle to a local mall where a Brinks truck was making a delivery. They confronted the guards and gunfire immediately broke out, severely wounding guard Joe Trombino and killing his co-worker, Peter Paige. The four then took $1.6 million in cash and met with Boudin.

An alert high-school student called the police after spotting the gang abandoning the getaway vehicle and entering the U-Haul. A police officer spotted and pulled over the U-Haul, but they could see only Boudin in the driver's seat. Boudin then got out of the cab, and raised her hands.

The police officers who caught them testified that Boudin, feigning innocence, pleaded with them to put down their guns and got them to drop their guard; Boudin said she remained silent, that the officers relaxed spontaneously. After the police lowered their weapons, six of the men in the back of the truck armed with automatic weapons came out of the back of the truck, surprising the four police officers, one of whom, Waverly Brown, was killed instantly. Boudin and David Gilbert, a Weatherman radical and the father of Boudin's infant son, allegedly acted as decoys as well as getaway drivers: The Brinks robbers the police were searching for were all from the Black Liberation Army and drove a red car. Officer Edward O'Grady lived long enough to empty his revolver, but as he reloaded, he was shot several times with an M16. Ninety minutes later, he died in hospital. The other two officers escaped with only minor injuries. The occupants of the U-Haul scattered, some climbing into another getaway car, others carjacking a nearby motorist while Boudin attempted to flee on foot. An off-duty corrections officer, Michael J. Koch, apprehended her shortly after the shootout. When she was arrested, Boudin gave her name as Barbara Edson.


The majority of the defendants received three consecutive sentences of 25 years to life, making them eligible for parole in the year 2058. Boudin hired Leonard Weinglass to defend her. Weinglass, a law partner of Boudin's father, arranged for a plea bargain and Boudin pled guilty to one count of felony murder and robbery, in exchange for one twenty-year to life sentence.


Boudin and Gilbert's son Chesa Boudin was adopted by former Weatherman leaders Bill Ayers and Bernardine Dohrn

She is presently an adjunct professor at Columbia University School of Social Work, a controversial appointment.




she sure has some experiences to share