A question for the Obama apologists

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by spence

The point is, Congress people will act like Congress people. They're concerned primarily with personal impact and one sided agendas.

Oh? I never heard that before. Something new . . . or something you have observed by your more realistic understanding of contexts? I double checked the official guide on how and for what Congress people act--the Constitution. It lists 18 things in which Congress has the responsibility to act. None of the 18 says that members are to be concerned primarily with personal impact and one sided agendas. Each of the 18 are enumerated as duties not agendas. And they are very specific, not encumbered by conflicting or various "sides."

This is crystal clear with the current House behavior. Cruze's motivation is establishing himself on the National stage to run for President,

The House behavior to which you refer was about the funding of a law which was imperfectly written, and which itself has been an "agenda" of progressives for a century. An agenda that is not listed as one of the 18 ways on which Congress is supposed to act. And, yes, Congress can override Supreme Court decisions. It is actually the final arbiter of what is federal law, not the SCOTUS.

I understand, however, that you have no truck with such notions. The Constitution, for you, is an outdated document which was written in a different context than that in which we currently live. High sounding concepts such as liberty, especially individual liberty, no longer apply. We are all totally interdependent in such a way that individualism is an obstacle to efficient social order and good governance thereof. And it is through government, highly centralized and staffed with expert bureaucrats, that we must achieve what is good for all.

The "perception" that a Cruze could be acting honorably to perform his Constitutional duty to country and constituents is probably for you, naïve. Your reading of the relevant context, with its variables and relative agendas, is that what he is doing is only for a run at the presidency.

House Republicans are generally terrified that more Tea Party candidates are going to back stab them in the primaries.

Actually, the Tea Party has felt that it has been back stabbed by Republicans whom they helped to victory, and who have abandoned promises that helped them get elected. Any new candidates the Tea Party runs to replace back stabbing Congress people will be to right the ship.

Obama simply said that as President he saw you need a broader perspective.

-spence

Yes, yes, the "perspective" thing. I know, I know, the official guide to what the POTUS's perspective should be is irrelevant. That perspective is much narrower than what modern presidents must have. They are responsible for so much more, just about everything, so that one person couldn't actually handle it and do it well--that jack of all trades but master of none syndrome. So as a mere Senator, or regular person, one could not be "perceived" as being capable of understanding budgetary problems, especially involving trillions of dollars. But, being elected to the presidency, the master of all things, one evolves into a wider sphere of vision, of contexts, of variables, of relativities, of a massively broad perspective which encompasses the totality of the American nation.

Really?

[buckman]

Originally Posted by spence

Curious if you affectionately refer to your information sources as your "dealer".

-spence

Ok. That did get a chuckle out of me but what I said is fact
Look up the word . It helps understand reality
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[Raven]

when i flush the toilet
i think of Obama

[spence]

Originally Posted by detbuch

So as a mere Senator, or regular person, one could not be "perceived" as being capable of understanding budgetary problems, especially involving trillions of dollars. But, being elected to the presidency, the master of all things, one evolves into a wider sphere of vision, of contexts, of variables, of relativities, of a massively broad perspective which encompasses the totality of the American nation.

Has nothing to do with understanding, it's about measurement.

-spence

[basswipe]

From Spence's responses it is quite easy to answer your question Jim:Yes Obama and his followers Can Have IT Both Ways.Unfortunately its the American citizen taking it both ways.

[Sea Dangles]

Originally Posted by spence

Has nothing to do with understanding, it's about measurement.

-spence

Another detbutch beatdown has Spence grasping at straws.
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[spence]

Originally Posted by basswipe

From Spence's responses it is quite easy to answer your question Jim:Yes Obama and his followers Can Have IT Both Ways.Unfortunately its the American citizen taking it both ways.

Should talk to Sen. Cruz about his doomsday mission then.

This is pretty telling...

http://www.politico.com/story/2013/1...753.html?hp=l7

I'm surprised actually. Ted Cruz is a really smart guy, too bad he can't see past his own arrogance.

-spence

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by spence

Should talk to Sen. Cruz about his doomsday mission then.

"Doomsday mission"? Are you reneging on your devotion to "perspectives"? Cruz has a broader perspective than "Republican after Republican" who want to end the budget impasse. What budget? The continuing resolution is a means to AVOID a budget. Raising the debt ceiling is a means to spend, again, even more money than the government has.

And Obamacare does the same. And it is not popular or desired by a majority of citizens.

Anonymous quotes to the contrary, the mess republicans are in is the mess that everybody is in, and that mess includes obamacare, which Republicans didn't vote for. It is not Republicans who have not passed budgets, it is not Republicans who passed Obamacare, but it is Republicans who have also contributed to the debt and also maintained business as usual for the Federal Gvt.

Who cares if they believe they'll get blamed for it all. Most people, including me, don't give a rat's behind if they do. What tea partiers and constitutionalists care about is getting rid of debt, getting rid of oppressive tyrannical mandates (including Obamacare), restoring principled constitutional gvt. and making this, again, a country of free, responsible people, not a populace who must depend on government bureaucracy to sustain their lives.

Cruz's broader "perspective" includes all of that. I have heard him speak on talk shows and he says a lot more than is represented in the article you cite. And the perspective from which he speaks is not a "doomsday mission," but a restoration to sanity and a brighter, once again flourishing nation of individuals who can innovate and produce far more than herds and groups who are all prodded into one way by centralized regulations.

This is pretty telling...

http://www.politico.com/story/2013/1...753.html?hp=l7

I'm surprised actually. Ted Cruz is a really smart guy, too bad he can't see past his own arrogance.

-spence

It is that "arrogance" that allows him to see past the insular fear of timid Republicans who care for their image more than fighting for what is right. And it is that "arrogance" that gives him the courage not to care what Spence, or politico, or timid Republicans wish to brand him with snotty and irrelevant comments.

As for Obamacare and should it be repealed, read from the same issue of Politico that you cite this article by one of the progressive's favorite billionaires, Warren Buffet: http://moneymorning.com/ob-article/o...e=t-oc-buffett

[Fishpart]

Politico, now there is an unbiased source. Should be named Pravda...
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[spence]

Originally Posted by Sea Dangles

Another detbutch beatdown has Spence grasping at straws.
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Perhaps your drive by pot shots aren't conducive towards thinking.

-spence

[spence]

Originally Posted by detbuch

It is that "arrogance" that allows him to see past the insular fear of timid Republicans who care for their image more than fighting for what is right. And it is that "arrogance" that gives him the courage not to care what Spence, or politico, or timid Republicans wish to brand him with snotty and irrelevant comments.

I watched the guy on MTP Sunday, he's all about Ted. His courage is driven by ego, his arrogance blinds him to the consequences of politics by anarchy.

A majority doesn't want the HCB de-funded by the way. Cruz's behavior isn't in any way backed by public opinion.

Nor is raising the debt ceiling a means to spend more, it's a means to pay the bills. Spending happens to be declining faster than anticipated right now. Perhaps the Tea Party should focus on reinforcing a positive than legislation through threats...it's not a long-term strategy.

As for Warren Buffet. Did you seriously mean to reference an article quoting him from nearly 3-1/2 years ago? It looks like Money Morning doesn't have a lot of editorial oversight.

-spence

[buckman]

[QUOTE=spence;1016210]I watched the guy on MTP Sunday, he's all about Ted. His courage is driven by ego, his arrogance blinds him to the consequences of politics by anarchy.

A majority doesn't want the HCB de-funded by the way. Cruz's behavior isn't in any way backed by public opinion.

Nor is raising the debt ceiling a means to spend more, it's a means to pay the bills. Spending happens to be declining faster than anticipated right now. Perhaps the Tea Party should focus on reinforcing a positive than legislation through threats...it's not a long-term strategy.

As for Warren Buffet. Did you seriously mean to reference an article quoting him from nearly 3-1/2 years ago? It looks like Money Morning doesn't have a lot of editorial oversight.

-spence[/
Your comical Spence, everything you said about Cruz is verbatim the way Obama behaves. It is the reason we have a poorly thought out "Obama Care" law . And the reason He, the Congress and the Senate want out of it.
And for Christ sake , Buffet makes his billions projecting into the future.
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[spence]

Originally Posted by buckman

Your comical Spence, everything you said about Cruz is verbatim the way Obama behaves. It is the reason we have a poorly thought out "Obama Care" law . And the reason He, the Congress and the Senate want out of it.
And for Christ sake , Buffet makes his billions projecting into the future.
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I love it, the old Congressional Exemption misinformation train...

-spence

[Piscator]

Originally Posted by spence

I love it, the old Congressional Exemption misinformation train...

-spence

Spence,

Just curious, straight up question, on a score of 1-10 where do you rate this President?
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[buckman]

Originally Posted by spence

I love it, the old Congressional Exemption misinformation train...

-spence

I should have said " subsidized "
And where do you come up with the statement that most Americans don't want Obamacare defunded?
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[spence]

Originally Posted by buckman

I should have said " subsidized "
And where do you come up with the statement that most Americans don't want Obamacare defunded?
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Congress has the same employer contribution they had before. This is made up outrage to stir the pot...

As for public opinion. People are certainly confused about the HCB but polls I've seen just last week indicated they certainly don't think it should be defunded and most appear to like key changes for pre existing conditions etc...
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[buckman]

Originally Posted by spence

Congress has the same employer contribution they had before. This is made up outrage to stir the pot...

As for public opinion. People are certainly confused about the HCB but polls I've seen just last week indicated they certainly don't think it should be defunded and most appear to like key changes for pre existing conditions etc...
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

There were laws passed, specifically, to ensure that Congress the Senate staffers and the president are taking care of them protected. If not , then why pass those amendments .
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[justplugit]

Originally Posted by Piscator

Spence,

Just curious, straight up question, on a score of 1-10 where do you rate this President?
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And before we turn this page, the answer is ??????????????

[fishbones]

Originally Posted by spence

Congress has the same employer contribution they had before. This is made up outrage to stir the pot...

As for public opinion. People are certainly confused about the HCB but polls I've seen just last week indicated they certainly don't think it should be defunded and most appear to like key changes for pre existing conditions etc...
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

Spence, please show us which polls you've seen that indicated most of the public doesn't want it defunded. You always ask for proof if someone posts something you don't agree with. It should be expected of you as well.

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by spence

I watched the guy on MTP Sunday, he's all about Ted. His courage is driven by ego, his arrogance blinds him to the consequences of politics by anarchy.

Your drive-by opinion needs some proof or evidence other than your "perception."

Is ego not a portion of courage? Most of the "great" men of history would be perceived as being driven by ego. Are you implying that ego is bad? Perhaps you perceive that your opinions or actions are devoid of ego. Perhaps your own arrogance blinds you to those perceptions and opinions of others as if what you propose without some proofs is obviously true. That is ego and arrogance of a high order.

And "political anarchy"? What we have now is an anarchy. Our government does not operate by consistent principles, and it has abandoned the constitutional structure which provided those principles. A structure which provided the rule of law rather than rule by men. Rule by men rather than law is anarchy. What Cruz is attempting is a restoration of principles that promote individual freedom and the rule of law, not anarchy. See this article by Thomas Sowell: http://www.gopusa.com/commentary/201.../?subscriber=1

A majority doesn't want the HCB de-funded by the way. Cruz's behavior isn't in any way backed by public opinion.

Public opinion can be a useful guide in deciding legislation, but only if it is informed by principle and truth, not misguided by spin and lies. Cruz's behavior is backed by principal and constitutional order. If that makes him an attractive candidate for President, I say hooray!

Nor is raising the debt ceiling a means to spend more, it's a means to pay the bills. Spending happens to be declining faster than anticipated right now. Perhaps the Tea Party should focus on reinforcing a positive than legislation through threats...it's not a long-term strategy.

Yes, by definition, it gives you more to spend. And the U.S. Gvt. takes in monthly enough to pay current bills. But the constant expansion of government has constantly required more money. And the need to abandon budgets and the borrowing of more money. And the debt that has been accrued by constantly borrowing has become impossible to pay unless the borrowing stops.

And your perception of Tea Party "threats" are perceived by them as means to fiscal and legislative sanity. If sanity is a threat, so be it. Wasn't the so-called government "shutdown" a threat to avoid any compromise?

As for Warren Buffet. Did you seriously mean to reference an article quoting him from nearly 3-1/2 years ago? It looks like Money Morning doesn't have a lot of editorial oversight.

-spence

I know that you "perceive" things of long ago as not relevant to today, but 3-1/2 years ago? Has so much changed? And, if anything, what Buffet said seems more likely now than when he said it. I found it very interesting that those who will benefit the most are the greedy investors from whom Obama wants wealth redistributed to the rest of us.

[spence]

Originally Posted by detbuch

I know that you "perceive" things of long ago as not relevant to today, but 3-1/2 years ago? Has so much changed? And, if anything, what Buffet said seems more likely now than when he said it. I found it very interesting those who will benefit the most are the greedy investors from whom Obama wants wealth redistributed to the rest of us.

Looks like the quote was even taken out of context...ha, seems like everything is these days.

http://www.factcheck.org/2013/09/war...-on-obamacare/

-spence

[spence]

Originally Posted by fishbones

Spence, please show us which polls you've seen that indicated most of the public doesn't want it defunded. You always ask for proof if someone posts something you don't agree with. It should be expected of you as well.

Use your Google, plenty of information out there.

-spence

[spence]

Originally Posted by buckman

There were laws passed, specifically, to ensure that Congress the Senate staffers and the president are taking care of them protected. If not , then why pass those amendments .
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Initially Congress was automatically exempt from the exchanges because they already had insurance...then Republicans amended the bill to force Congress on the exchanges while keeping their existing employer contributions.

There is no there there. This is wingnut talking point fluffery.

-spence

[spence]

Originally Posted by Fishpart

Politico, now there is an unbiased source. Should be named Pravda...
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Yet another example of what's wrong.

-spence

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by spence

Looks like the quote was even taken out of context...ha, seems like everything is these days.

http://www.factcheck.org/2013/09/war...-on-obamacare/

-spence

Interesting. Yes, taking out of context has been around for a long time. By all "sides."

But, according to factcheck, Buffet actually did say "unfortunately, we came up with a bill that really doesn't attack the cost situation that much. [Actually, various predictions now say that it does--costs will substantially rise.] And he actually did say in a response to a question if he was in favor of scrapping this and going back to start over, "I would be if I were President Obama."

Though he preferred it to the status quo, he also said "I would rather see a plan C that really attacks cost . . . The American Public is not behind this bill." He seems to support the bill as "a step in the right direction" but not an answer to health care costs. So a compromise on it to "improve" it is another way of saying come up with something different. Which is not so different than what Republicans, or even Cruz, are saying.

Of course as an economic statist who has benefited tremendously by manipulating investments through government regulations, and who may find ways to gain more wealth through investments available because of Obamacare, he wouldn't be totally against it. Just a personal thought for which I have no proof--perhaps arrogance and ego on my part.

How about answering the rest of my post.

[spence]

Originally Posted by buckman

There were laws passed, specifically, to ensure that Congress the Senate staffers and the president are taking care of them protected. If not , then why pass those amendments .
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This is for you buck...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...fox-news-host/

“As it turns out, it looks as if more personnel were sent in to the World War II memorial to keep people out than the State Department sent to Benghazi.”

Really?
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[buckman]

Originally Posted by spence

This is for you buck...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...fox-news-host/

“As it turns out, it looks as if more personnel were sent in to the World War II memorial to keep people out than the State Department sent to Benghazi.”

Really?
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

Leave it you you to make a joke of Benghazi and WW2 vets in the same post ... Really ?
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[spence]

Originally Posted by buckman

Leave it you you to make a joke of Benghazi and WW2 vets in the same post ... Really ?
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Not me, that was Fox News...

-spence

[spence]

Originally Posted by detbuch

Of course as an economic statist who has benefited tremendously by manipulating investments through government regulations, and who may find ways to gain more wealth through investments available because of Obamacare, he wouldn't be totally against it. Just a personal thought for which I have no proof--perhaps arrogance and ego on my part.

That he has constructive criticism doesn't negate his pretty consistent support...

-spence

[spence]

Sowell's piece is disturbing on two fronts. While certainly spending is used to hamper legislation I'm not aware of it being used to eliminate legislation that's backed by law.

Secondly, his remarks that incoming tax revenues can pay off interest is silly. If the government has no money to continue operations it will still impact our credit because we can't fund other obligations.

As for Cruz's behavior being principled I'm not sure how that can be said with a strait face. This entire showdown is a marketing event.

-spence