Memo is out

[spence]

Originally Posted by detbuch

Did the Democrats elaborate further what they meant by mischaracterized? If not, their statement would be, as WDMSO would say, innuendo.

They certainly did in their response to the memo which is classified.

My understanding is that the FISA court assumes that evidence is verified. That the court would not consider unverified information as evidence--so would not have granted this warrant if it had known it was not verified. And the Republicans (McCain) who contributed to its creation were trying to stop Trump from being the nominee. Certainly, the Democrats were an opposition party. The motivation, in either case, was anti-Trump. And the McCain original contribution which ended well before the dossier became "evidence" for a warrant does not diminish the Clinton campaign motivation.

I believe the FISA standard is just that it has to be reasonable not that is has to be verified. Steele is a known reputable source and of lot of the Dossier has proven to have merit. But it also certainly sounds like there were many pieces of evidence used to justify the warrant according to those who have read it.

I am not aware of a FISA warrant on Page surveillance before the one issued with the dossier being used as evidence. I've heard of one that was dismissed before the dossier was used. And if there was already a FISA warrant to surveil Page, why would the FBI have to apply for a new one.

He already was under surveillance and the warrant had been renewed three times I believe. For that to occur they would have to have shown the previous warrants were producing valuable information and/or bring new evidence.

I'm not sure how long they last but I do know a FISA warrant is time bound.

Another factor to consider is how all this came about. Steele was concerned there was a real crime going on and contacted the FBI himself.

[scottw]

Spence is butchering the timeline and distorting facts...I feel mislead reading his memos

[spence]

Originally Posted by scottw

Spence is butchering the timeline and distorting facts...I feel mislead reading his memos

Be specific or be gone.

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by spence

Be specific or be gone.

If you read my post just before this one by you, you will note a concern about your FISA warrants on Page timeline. You keep stating that there were FISA warrants on Page before the "dossier" granted one. I didn't find a record of any. But if there were, they apparently were not fruitful enough to continue being granted since the FISA application, submitted shortly before the "dossier" one, was not allowed. Were there actually previous warrants, or are you confusing the current one with some supposed previous ones?

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by spence

They certainly did in their response to the memo which is classified.

Well, until we know what the Dems meant by mischaracterized, their statement is of no use. And since the memo was declassified, why would responses to it be classified? And if those in-committee responses are still somehow classified, explanations given outside of the official committee briefs need not be classified. Democrats whether from the committee or not, can give personal opinions about how the memo mischaracterizes.

I believe the FISA standard is just that it has to be reasonable not that is has to be verified.

"Reasonable" is too vague and subjective to be used as a standard to allow intrusion of 4th Amendment rights. The standard is much higher than merely being reasonable: "Known as Woods procedures after Michael J. Woods, the FBI Special Agent attorney who developed this layer of approval, DOJ verifies the accuracy of every fact stated in the application. If anything looks unsubstantiated, the application is sent back to the FBI to provide additional evidentiary support – this game of bureaucratic chutes and ladders continues until DOJ is satisfied that the facts in the FISA application can both be corroborated and meet the legal standards for the court."

Steele is a known reputable source and of lot of the Dossier has proven to have merit. But it also certainly sounds like there were many pieces of evidence used to justify the warrant according to those who have read it.

That's just evasive gibberish. The "dossier" is not a verified document.

He already was under surveillance and the warrant had been renewed three times I believe. For that to occur they would have to have shown the previous warrants were producing valuable information and/or bring new evidence.

Again, I don't know of which warrant you are referring to. There was an application for a warrant to surveil Page, just prior to the one under discussion, that was not allowed. Which, according to your statement, should have been allowed if the previous warrants (if they existed) were producing valuable information or bringing new information. When the "dossier" was submitted as evidence on the next try, the warrant was granted.

Another factor to consider is how all this came about. Steele was concerned there was a real crime going on and contacted the FBI himself.

Conjecturing motivation which seems sketchy to begin with could well be considered as mischaracterization. Did he on his own volition, out of some idealistic compulsion, go about digging up dirt? We can't know that, nor is it relevant to the accuracy of the "dossier." We do know that he was paid a great deal of money to do it.

[spence]

Originally Posted by detbuch

Well, until we know what the Dems meant by mischaracterized, their statement is of no use. And since the memo was declassified, why would responses to it be classified? And if those in-committee responses are still somehow classified, explanations given outside of the official committee briefs need not be classified. Democrats whether from the committee or not, can give personal opinions about how the memo mischaracterizes.

I think the fact that they've stated it, documented it and asked the Republicans to make it public says quite a lot.

"Reasonable" is too vague and subjective to be used as a standard to allow intrusion of 4th Amendment rights. The standard is much higher than merely being reasonable: "Known as Woods procedures after Michael J. Woods, the FBI Special Agent attorney who developed this layer of approval, DOJ verifies the accuracy of every fact stated in the application. If anything looks unsubstantiated, the application is sent back to the FBI to provide additional evidentiary support – this game of bureaucratic chutes and ladders continues until DOJ is satisfied that the facts in the FISA application can both be corroborated and meet the legal standards for the court."

Reasonable here is in context of the FBI's process...which doesn't require information to be proven. The standard is very high which is why to your point above FISA requests are rarely denied.

That's just evasive gibberish. The "dossier" is not a verified document.

It's a collection of items some verified and some not. That doesn't invalidate the entire collection.

Again, I don't know of which warrant you are referring to. There was an application for a warrant to surveil Page, just prior to the one under discussion, that was not allowed. Which, according to your statement, should have been allowed if the previous warrants (if they existed) were producing valuable information or bringing new information. When the "dossier" was submitted as evidence on the next try, the warrant was granted.

I think some of the Dossier was included in the last extension which was signed off on by Trump appointees.

Conjecturing motivation which seems sketchy to begin with could well be considered as mischaracterization. Did he on his own volition, out of some idealistic compulsion, go about digging up dirt? We can't know that, nor is it relevant to the accuracy of the "dossier." We do know that he was paid a great deal of money to do it.

I have no idea how much Steele was paid. His employer was paid a decent amount although I'd assume if you want good quality research it doesn't come cheap.

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by spence

I think the fact that they've stated it, documented it and asked the Republicans to make it public says quite a lot.

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Reasonable here is in context of the FBI's process...which doesn't require information to be proven. The standard is very high which is why to your point above FISA requests are rarely denied.

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It's a collection of items some verified and some not. That doesn't invalidate the entire collection.

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I think some of the Dossier was included in the last extension which was signed off on by Trump appointees.

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I have no idea how much Steele was paid. His employer was paid a decent amount although I'd assume if you want good quality research it doesn't come cheap.

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[spence]

Originally Posted by detbuch

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I know right?

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by spence

I know right?

"Know" ????????????????

[scottw]

Originally Posted by detbuch

"Know" ????????????????

he's clearly lost his mind