I rarely copy and paste... but this is great

[spence]

Originally Posted by scottw

he parroted gross, inflammatory distortions years after they were shown to be inaccurate...

By Reason Magazine? Perhaps he didn't have a subscription, or his could have gotten wet in the mail...that does sometimes happen.

A real number is certainly debate able and probably impossible to accurately count, but even in the same article you quoted from the author admits at least 100,000 dead from sanctions since 1990. There have been several studies and they all seem to indicate that UN sanctions were very hard on the Iraqi people.

But if this is all you really have then I'm quite dissapointed. To ignore the whole of the imam and his wife's works at the expense of a single statistic demonstrates a total lack of willingness to even accept that he may be a tolerant and moderate Muslim, simply because he doesn't fit what you think a moderate should be.

Really sad.

I haven't referred to anyone as a terrorist in this issue...the type of inflammatory rhetoric based on flasehoods from a supposed "moderate" muslim leader can hardly result in bridge building in either direction...

You've asserted "guilt by association" which is even worse.

Again, I'm not sure you have a clue what a moderate Muslim looks like at the International level, or would even accept one if you did.

what he said was quite clear and you seem to be going through great contortions to explain it away..

No it's called being reasonable, I'm practicing to get a monthly slot at Reason.com.

-spence

[spence]

Originally Posted by buckman

A terrorist no, a terrorist sympathizer yes.

Based on what? This is the "go to" guy by even Bush on Islamic outreach issues.

The way I see it, the sanctions were brought on by a mad man dictator.
Damn, Spence, you have argued on many, many occasions that the sanctions were working. Not to mention that we should keep sanctions in place for Iran.

I've argued that the sanctions were very effective at keeping Saddam's military ambitions under control. Certainly they came at a high price...

I believe the context I've usually used is that in 2003 we were under little pressure to depose Saddam as Bush insisted as there was no immediate threat...because of the sanctions.

And while we are at it...how about the US lives lost in Bosnia or the first Iraq war to save Muslims. Does that effect the "Islamic perspective"?????

It does to some degree. I'm not sure Desert Storm was seen by Muslims as the US out to save them, but more as hired guns by the Saudis. Also, I don't think people think of specific events as much but they look at a pattern over time. Once measure of good faith may be lost if it's not followed up, and in a pretty dysfunctional region to begin with...this isn't always easy.

Iran is another good example. The US has been meddling in Iranian affairs for 50 years and yet we wonder why there's a lack of trust! Wether we had good reasons for specific actions may justify some of our own actions, but we can't ignore that there's another perspective that STILL INFLUENCES POLICY AND PERCEPTION TODAY.

-spence

[buckman]

Originally Posted by spence

Based on what? This is the "go to" guy by even Bush on Islamic outreach issues.


I've argued that the sanctions were very effective at keeping Saddam's military ambitions under control. Certainly they came at a high price...

It does to some degree. I'm not sure Desert
I believe the context I've usually used is that in 2003 we were under little pressure to depose Saddam as Bush insisted as there was no immediate threat...because of the sanctions.


Storm was seen by Muslims as the US out to save them, but more as hired guns by the Saudis. Also, I don't think people think of specific events as much but they look at a pattern over time. Once measure of good faith may be lost if it's not followed up, and in a pretty dysfunctional region to begin with...this isn't always easy.

Iran is another good example. The US has been meddling in Iranian affairs for 50 years and yet we wonder why there's a lack of trust! Wether we had good reasons for specific actions may justify some of our own actions, but we can't ignore that there's another perspective that STILL INFLUENCES POLICY AND PERCEPTION TODAY.

-spence

Sad that the "go to" Muslim thinks we are as guilty as the terrorist, as do you.



"we can't ignore that there's another perspective that STILL INFLUENCES POLICY AND PERCEPTION TODAY."......yes, a hate for all other religions to the point where you are willing to kill your own. Guess what religions group that is???????

[spence]

Originally Posted by buckman

Sad that the "go to" Muslim thinks we are as guilty as the terrorist, as do you.

Please post the quote. I think know the one you're talking about and that's clearly not what he meant...

-spence

[spence]

Originally Posted by buckman

......yes, a hate for all other religions to the point where you are willing to kill your own. Guess what religions group that is???????

On the surface this seems like a tragic oversimplification. Please explain...

-spence

[Typhoon]

I agree 100% with Ron Paul.

The muslims do have have some responsibility to use discretion though. They wouldn't allow a neo-nazi recruitment center to be built next to an Auschewitz memorial.

[Nebe]

This place is 7 blocks away from ground zero. That's not 'right nextdoor'
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[spence]

Originally Posted by Typhoon

I agree 100% with Ron Paul.

The muslims do have have some responsibility to use discretion though. They wouldn't allow a neo-nazi recruitment center to be built next to an Auschewitz memorial.

And the fact seems to be that discretion has been used.

Instead of a Terror Recruitment Center as all Muslims would naturally desire , they planned to offer fitness equipment, a prayer area, space for the performing arts and even a kitchen for cooking classes.

I'm sure ScottW will argue the kitchen is really a "duel use facility" that could easily be reconfigured for the manufacture of chemical and biological weapons.

-spence

[buckman]

Originally Posted by Typhoon

I agree 100% with Ron Paul.

The muslims do have have some responsibility to use discretion though. They wouldn't allow a neo-nazi recruitment center to be built next to an Auschewitz memorial.

Or a temple in Mecca.*

*talking point 9 from the daily "How to be a bigot" email

[buckman]

Originally Posted by spence

And the fact seems to be that discretion has been used.

Instead of a Terror Recruitment Center as all Muslims would naturally desire , they planned to offer fitness equipment, a prayer area, space for the performing arts and even a kitchen for cooking classes.

I'm sure ScottW will argue the kitchen is really a "duel use facility" that could easily be reconfigured for the manufacture of chemical and biological weapons.

-spence

My God Spence...it sounds so wondeful. cooking classes ? Where do I sign up?

[Typhoon]

Originally Posted by buckman

Or a temple in Mecca.*

*talking point 9 from the daily "How to be a bigot" email

I'm being a bigot?

I'm sure my McDonalds franchise would not get the green light in Mecca.

[buckman]

Originally Posted by Typhoon

I'm being a bigot?

I'm sure my McDonalds franchise would not get the green light in Mecca.

No, not you...me. Everyone knows I'm the racist, bigot one on here.

And I'm sure they are not making Christmas cookies in the cooking classes

[spence]

Originally Posted by Typhoon

I'm being a bigot?

I'm sure my McDonalds franchise would not get the green light in Mecca.

No, Buck is just poking fun at himself. When he says silly things he secretly fears he's being a bigot. He knows better, he just can't help it.

I don't think I'd expect a Temple in Mecca considering that Islam is the state law. Comparing this to America where we (ARE SUPPOSED TO) value the ability for people to worship freely makes sense on some levels - i.e. to study the different cultures and people - but not on others - i.e to justify actions that may run contrary to our values.

As for McDonalds in Mecca, I've read that there are McDonalds all over Saudi Arabia, including around Mecca.

-spence

P.S. YOU HAVE THE BEST STRAWS IN FAST FOOD!!!

[fishpoopoo]