I don't get this...

[spence]

Kid started Scouting when he was six years old.

Almost-Eagle Scout denied award because he is gay - U.S. News

-spence

[FinS 32]

I am an eagle scout actually, and its in interesting subject, although I won't share my views on the subject its just one of those rules that has been there for a long time.
similar story, when i was still in scouting, when i was younger, I went to camp every year. One year we get a new conselor, really nice guy, eagle scout In Us and again in the Philiipines, very impressive scouting resume, and you would never ever expect he was gay. some how it was found out, and the fired him and kicked him out of scouting. It was the entire kid's life, just taken away.
Liek I said I wont share my view on it, but this stuff isnt new its been going on for a long time

[PRBuzz]

Don't ask, don't tell! Unless someone finds out and tells for you at its finest.: (
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[sburnsey931]

It baffles me that this stuff still exists. Freedom in the USA should not be exclusive
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[Bronko]

Total disgrace.
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[Fly Rod]

where is the disgrace....It is a known fact....no gays in the Boy Scouts....thats the motto

What's the problem????????? U do not get it

[RIROCKHOUND]

Originally Posted by Fly Rod

where is the disgrace....It is a known fact....no gays in the Boy Scouts....thats the motto

What's the problem????????? U do not get it

Bronko summed it up nice.
In the motto huh?
I don't remember it being "we're the BSA, and we only bang chicks..."

what a shameful story. Makes me have 1st let a lone 2nd thoughts about letting my son join someday...

[scottw]

Originally Posted by RIROCKHOUND

what a shameful story. Makes me have 1st let a lone 2nd thoughts about letting my son join someday...

just send him to Girl Scouts instead...tell him that gender is a state of mind and not a physical limitation...

[JohnR]

Rock - maybe by the time he is old enough it will have changed, maybe it won't. I foresee that it will within the next 20 years. If we threw everything away that was 90% good and 10% bad, we would never have anything.


The local council has stated they would like to see it changed but national hasn't - yet.

For someone that has a kid in Scouts, I can tell you he will be a better young man because of it and the good, far, far, outweighs the bad.

[Bronko]

Yea and at one point women couldn't vote and blacks we're slaves. The kid is a teenager probably struggling with some pretty serious issues both socially and emotionally and they are going to deny him the award? Total joke. The kid is gay, big deal. The Boy Scouts of America should be ashamed of themselves.
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[Nebe]

Sad story on many levels.
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[likwid]

The "Duty to God" bit is a total joke. Half the troops in MA ignore it/don't discuss it/dismiss it as people have their own beliefs and have a right to have them.

Quick Flyrod! Go rat em out!

[buckman]

It's a private organization . While I don't agree with it they can do what they want
There are few organizations that have accomplished what the Boy Scouts have for as long as they have. It's a wonderful organization that really could do without this rule
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[JohnR]

Originally Posted by Bronko

Yea and at one point women couldn't vote and blacks we're slaves. The kid is a teenager probably struggling with some pretty serious issues both socially and emotionally and they are going to deny him the award? Total joke. The kid is gay, big deal. The Boy Scouts of America should be ashamed of themselves.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

What he said. Thankfully they didn't throw the country away before those wrongs were righted, don't through Scouting away today on something that will likely change in the future.

Originally Posted by buckman

It's a private organization . While I don't agree with it they can do what they want
There are few organizations that have accomplished what the Boy Scouts have for as long as they have. It's a wonderful organization that really could do without this rule
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It is a private organization

[spence]

I think we'd all agree with the positive values of Scouting...that's what makes it all the more absurd.

-spence

[The Dad Fisherman]

I'd be curious to see what organization holds His Units Charter. 75-80% of Scouting units are chartered through religious organizations. The Mormon Church is the #1 organization that holds charters for scouting units and the United Methodist church is #2. The Catholic Church is #3

I'm betting there is more to this story than just a dink scoutmaster....there is a whole committee and chartered organization involved that may be part of it.

Wouldn't be an issue in our unit....

[The Dad Fisherman]

Originally Posted by The Dad Fisherman

75-80% of Scouting units are chartered through religious organizations. The Mormon Church is the #1 organization that holds charters for scouting units and the United Methodist church is #2. The Catholic Church is #3

I guess you guys missed this. It might even be more than 80%

If the offical stand of these religions is that Homosexuality is a sin, and 3/4 of your organization's units are chartered through these religions...why would you says its OK and risk losing the support and backing for most of your units....that would take down scouting in no time.

Its a private organization and can choose its members as it see fit. Your unit can choose its members as it see fit....there is no rule that says you have to accept anybody. You can accept a boy and not accept his parent if you so choose. (this happens in cases of custody where one of the parents is noithing but a distraction)

2 things have to happen if this is ever going to get fixed....either the different church's stands on homosexuality need to change or more units need to start being chartered through civic organizations.

until then I doubt you will see anything change on this front. I would like nothing more than to be wrong and have it change....but as of now thats the stance...join if you want to...its a great organization that teaches a lot of useful skills to youth.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by The Dad Fisherman

I guess you guys missed this. It might even be more than 80%

If the offical stand of these religions is that Homosexuality is a sin, and 3/4 of your organization's units are chartered through these religions...why would you says its OK and risk losing the support and backing for most of your units....that would take down scouting in no time.

Its a private organization and can choose its members as it see fit. Your unit can choose its members as it see fit....there is no rule that says you have to accept anybody. You can accept a boy and not accept his parent if you so choose. (this happens in cases of custody where one of the parents is noithing but a distraction)

2 things have to happen if this is ever going to get fixed....either the different church's stands on homosexuality need to change or more units need to start being chartered through civic organizations.

until then I doubt you will see anything change on this front. I would like nothing more than to be wrong and have it change....but as of now thats the stance...join if you want to...its a great organization that teaches a lot of useful skills to youth.

TDF, if a large number of scout units are chatrered through, say, the Catholic church. Does that mean that all of those units (chartered by the Catholic Church) would automatically expel a kid for being gay? Or does the local scoutmaster have any discretion in that case?

TDF, you know way more about this than I do...would you be OK with your kids going camping with fellow teenagers, or scoutmasters, who were gay? Even if you could not be there? I have to admit that would worry me.

[The Dad Fisherman]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

TDF, if a large number of scout units are chatrered through, say, the Catholic church. Does that mean that all of those units (chartered by the Catholic Church) would automatically expel a kid for being gay?

Not automatically...but all it takes, as of now, is for one parent to make it an issue. Our troop is Chartered by the Catholic Church (Actually the K of C holds our Charter). Each unit is different though. The BSA sets a set of Guidelines on how to run a unit. Some units may embrace the outdoors as their basis of their program, some may embrace the religious beliefs as their basis.

A civic organization, such as the 4-H, may make Animal Husbandry and Gardening the basis of their program

The Mormon Church, who is the largest holder of unit charters, makes scouts mandatory for their youth as part of their youth development. They are required to do 2 years of it.

Advancement is advancement....what ever is written is what needs to be done to advance...no more, no less.

Never saw anything written down in the BSA handbook about sexuality....my Job as Scoutmaster is to make sure they do the requirements as written....all the way from Scout to Eagle...not up to me to pass judgement...last time I looked there was only one that was Qualified to do that.

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

Or does the local scoutmaster have any discretion in that case?

Just like every program can be different, every Scoutmaster can be as well. Some, unfortunately, are on a big Power/Ego trip and think they call all the shots. What a lot of parents don't realize is that the scoutmaster can be removed. He is assigned that position by the Chartered Organization, and if they don't want you they are well in their rights to remove you...no questions asked. So parents can speak up if they are dissastisfied.

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

TDF, you know way more about this than I do...would you be OK with your kids going camping with fellow teenagers, or scoutmasters, who were gay? Even if you could not be there? I have to admit that would worry me.

Myself, I would not have a problem with a gay Scoutmaster. The same rules of Youth Protection Training apply. No 1 on 1 situations, 2 deep at all times. and as far as a Gay scout...BSA does Venture Scouts which is Coed, so you go Camping with Heterosexual teens of both sexes...they aren't allowed to fraternize when camping so the same would apply for Gay scouts....this is a camping trip not a singles cruise.

I am also on pretty much every campout...I'm the 1st one up and the last one asleep. Not on my Watch

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by The Dad Fisherman

Not automatically...but all it takes, as of now, is for one parent to make it an issue. Our troop is Chartered by the Catholic Church (Actually the K of C holds our Charter). Each unit is different though. The BSA sets a set of Guidelines on how to run a unit. Some units may embrace the outdoors as their basis of their program, some may embrace the religious beliefs as their basis.

A civic organization, such as the 4-H, may make Animal Husbandry and Gardening the basis of their program

The Mormon Church, who is the largest holder of unit charters, makes scouts mandatory for their youth as part of their youth development. They are required to do 2 years of it.

Advancement is advancement....what ever is written is what needs to be done to advance...no more, no less.

Never saw anything written down in the BSA handbook about sexuality....my Job as Scoutmaster is to make sure they do the requirements as written....all the way from Scout to Eagle...not up to me to pass judgement...last time I looked there was only one that was Qualified to do that.



Just like every program can be different, every Scoutmaster can be as well. Some, unfortunately, are on a big Power/Ego trip and think they call all the shots. What a lot of parents don't realize is that the scoutmaster can be removed. He is assigned that position by the Chartered Organization, and if they don't want you they are well in their rights to remove you...no questions asked. So parents can speak up if they are dissastisfied.



Myself, I would not have a problem with a gay Scoutmaster. The same rules of Youth Protection Training apply. No 1 on 1 situations, 2 deep at all times. and as far as a Gay scout...BSA does Venture Scouts which is Coed, so you go Camping with Heterosexual teens of both sexes...they aren't allowed to fraternize when camping so the same would apply for Gay scouts....this is a camping trip not a singles cruise.

I am also on pretty much every campout...I'm the 1st one up and the last one asleep. Not on my Watch

"I'm the 1st one up and the last one asleep. Not on my Watch"

Good end to a good post. Thanks.

[detbuch]

If sexual orientation should not be an issue, perhaps "Girl" Scouts and "Boy" Scouts should not be separated and the organization could just be The Scouts.

[The Dad Fisherman]

Originally Posted by detbuch

If sexual orientation should not be an issue, perhaps "Girl" Scouts and "Boy" Scouts should not be separated and the organization could just be The Scouts.

2 different organizations...

the Boy Scouts do offer a program that is Co-Ed...It is called Venture scouts. it is available to both Boys and Girls between the ages of 14-21.

[Tagger]

# 1 above anything else is youth protection . People are still confused about gay and pedophiles . Pedophiles get their prey , even in big macho college football programs . How to detect them ? I don't know . Unfortunately these creeps keep getting associated with gays .

[spence]

Originally Posted by detbuch

If sexual orientation should not be an issue, perhaps "Girl" Scouts and "Boy" Scouts should not be separated and the organization could just be The Scouts.

I think you're mixing orientation and gender.

-spence

[scottw]

Originally Posted by spence

I think you're mixing orientation and gender.

-spence

"mixing orientation and gender"

isn't that the definition?

[Saltheart]

Kids start scouting at a very young age. My opinion is that most and in fact almost all understand nothing about why their sexual preference is what it is at 10 years old. So they join and as they mature they make a decision about hot dogs or tacos (I use this expression for humor but on purpose because to me its as unimportant to me whether you like boys or girls as it is whether you like hot dogs or tacos). This decision is actually made after the scouting has had a long time to influence their character and likely influenced their sexual preferences along the way. So since scouting spans these formative years , its rediculous for them to ban something at the end of a kids scouting experience that probably developed during the many years it takes to go through the program to Eagle Scout.

Anyway , I think the adult(s) who would deny a lifelong scout his Eagle Badge because he is gay is a far bigger threat to kids and scouting than the individual kids who may opt to be gay as they grow up.

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by Saltheart

Kids start scouting at a very young age. My opinion is that most and in fact almost all understand nothing about why their sexual preference is what it is at 10 years old. So they join and as they mature they make a decision about hot dogs or tacos (I use this expression for humor but on purpose because to me its as unimportant to me whether you like boys or girls as it is whether you like hot dogs or tacos). This decision is actually made after the scouting has had a long time to influence their character and likely influenced their sexual preferences along the way. So since scouting spans these formative years , its rediculous for them to ban something at the end of a kids scouting experience that probably developed during the many years it takes to go through the program to Eagle Scout.

Anyway , I think the adult(s) who would deny a lifelong scout his Eagle Badge because he is gay is a far bigger threat to kids and scouting than the individual kids who may opt to be gay as they grow up.

This process of awakening to who you are or what you actually believe repeats itself millions of times in innumerable situations. It is the cause of countless broken ties. The divorce rate is driven by this process. Friendships, partnerships--private or business or political or religious or . . .--are dissoved by it. In some instances, the relationships survive by placing more value in the relationship and by sacrificing private desires and realities. But most part ways either amicably or angrily. In few, if any, situations do the relationships survive by redefining the structure, the entity through which the relationship is created. Rather, the individual agrees, despite his inner desires, to abide by the rules of engagement. If the structure is changed to accomodate the individual, then it is different from the original agreement that all others agreed to.

If the young almost Eagle Scout has discovered late that he cannot abide the rules and beliefs of the organization to which he has so long been a part of, should the Scouts change their rules to accomodate him, or should he decide that accepting a trophy of accomplishment, from an organization that does not recognize the value of who he is, would be a sham?

If President Obama finally realizes, after a lifetime of being a free market capitalist, that he is really a socialist, or marxist, and "comes out" by declaring his new-found discovery of who he is, should we compassionately say "that's OK, brother, lead on the ship of state as you choose," or should we boot him out?

[likwid]

Originally Posted by detbuch

Rather, the individual agrees, despite his inner desires, to abide by the rules of engagement.

So you want him to lie, which is against the rules.

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by likwid

So you want him to lie, which is against the rules.

No, I don't want him to lie. If he chooses to lie, that is HIS decision based on whether it is more important for him to be a Scout and get whatever rewards he thinks that entitles him to. But if he chooses to be honest, realizing he cannot live up to scouting ideals and rules, and realizing that scouting ideals do not agree with his own, he can part ways with the organization and pursue life in his "true" way.

[likwid]

Originally Posted by detbuch

If he chooses to lie, that is HIS decision based on whether it is more important for him to be a Scout and get whatever rewards he thinks that entitles him to.

Oh, so its his fault. I see.