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Old 09-05-2013, 06:24 AM   #61
scottw
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whatever happened to sitting down with these dictators over tea, without any pre-conditions and fixing these problems without having to resort to military action?

wasn't long ago that Pelosi, O, Kerry, Clinton and others were telling us that Assad was brilliant, highly educated, a reformer who would fundamentally change his country, Hope & Change for Syria or something....guess we never learn

best quote of the weekend by one of the befuddled sycophant media types on one of the big three propaganda outlets ...."after making his statement in the Rose Garden, the President played a round of golf"

yup.....

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Old 09-05-2013, 07:06 AM   #62
Jim in CT
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Building a coalition implies you're going to take action. Unless you plan to invade preemptive a public facing coalition does nothing.

The tough talk is because you assume they're not going to think they can get away with it.

Not attacking right away and working to build consensus takes a lot more resolve than simply pushing the button.

-spence
"Building a coalition implies you're going to take action. Unless you plan to invade preemptive a public facing coalition does nothing."

Absolutely, totally, one hundred percent bullsh*t.

Consider NATO, which was a coalition formed to keep the Soviet Union from getting any ideas about invading member nations. The existence of NATO did not involve any pre-emptive military action against anyone, it was purely preventative. And it worked.

A coalition can be a very effective deterrent. Unfortunately, it requires that the leaders of the nations in the coalition, are taken seriously by their adversaries, and that's clearly not the case with our Dear Leader Obama.
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Old 09-05-2013, 07:19 AM   #63
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We're talking about localized action here, not a long-term defence strategy...very different things.

-spence
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Old 09-05-2013, 07:27 AM   #64
Jim in CT
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I really can't decide where I stand on this one...
I agree 100%.

On the one hand, this guy has killed tens of thousands of civilians with bullets. But we are only willing to attack when 1,000 more are killed with gas, and that's that much worse than killing a larger number of children with guns?

On the other hand, I do believe that the strong have the responsibility to protect the weak, and if no one else can save these kids, is it not worth doing? But then again, if we kill/remove Assad, there's no way of knowing that whoever replaces him, won't do the same thing to his political opponents?

It's a mess. That part of the world is a godawful mess. Very difficult to know what the right thing to do is. But when I was in the Marines, all I ever prayed for, was a worthwhile mission. Trying to save inncocent civilians is about as noble as it gets. But peace, at least lasting peace, doesn't seem to work in that part of the world.

I had a colonel who used to say, "as long as those people hate each other more than they love their own children, there can be no possible peace." I guess that just about sums it up.
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Old 09-05-2013, 07:31 AM   #65
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We're talking about localized action here, not a long-term defence strategy...very different things.

-spence
So why can an international coalition work as a defensive deterrent against the Soviet Union, but not against pip-squeak Syria?

Enlighten me.

It's common sense Spence. Most people (not all, but most) can be controlled with a sufficient threat of force.
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Old 09-05-2013, 08:04 AM   #66
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So why can an international coalition work as a defensive deterrent against the Soviet Union, but not against pip-squeak Syria?

Enlighten me.

It's common sense Spence. Most people (not all, but most) can be controlled with a sufficient threat of force.
Very different situations. One if focused on a long-term defensive position with a very clear mandate.

The other is reactive in nature, responding to an isolated and incremental event that has a less clear mandate.

Can't just rubber stamp on onto the other...very different.

-spence
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Old 09-05-2013, 08:24 AM   #67
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We're talking about localized action here, not a long-term defence strategy...very different things.

-spence
Spence, seriously you think this will be a localized action???
No one can predict what the outcome will be. We are not talking Grenada here
but a match that could set off the start of WW 111.
There are no simple solutions to this problem. Either side ,in this on going war,
could spread these chemical weapons, and neither side can be trusted.
Throwing a few missiles will not destroy all their chemical weapons and it
will end up being our troops on the ground to find and destroy them.
Once started this will neither be localized or short term.

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Old 09-05-2013, 08:50 AM   #68
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Spence, seriously you think this will be a localized action???
No one can predict what the outcome will be. We are not talking Grenada here
but a match that could set off the start of WW 111.
There are no simple solutions to this problem. Either side ,in this on going war, could spread these chemical weapons, and neither side can be trusted. Throwing a few missiles will not destroy all their chemical weapons and it will end up being our troops on the ground to find and destroy them. Once started this will neither be localized or short term.
The WW3 talk is just fear mongering. None of the major players would benefit from it and hence it's not likely.

The point here wasn't to destroy all the chemical weapons, it was to send a message that the international community doesn't allow the use of them. At this point what's the cost of doing nothing?

-spence
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Old 09-05-2013, 08:58 AM   #69
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At this point what's the cost of doing nothing?

-spence
Spoken like a true disciple of Obama, who via his penchant for voting "present", is a great believer in doing nothing.

Spence, the potential cost of doing nothing, is enormous. I cannot believe you don't already know this, but the cost of doing nohting, is that it sends a message to Assad and others like him, that the US is too impotent to prevent this kind of thing in the future.

The cost of doing nothing is that it invites subsequent war crimes.

How can you really ask that? Are you that naive? Or do you literally have zero empathy for anyone who wasn't as lucky as you and I, to be born in a place that values freedom?
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Old 09-05-2013, 09:06 AM   #70
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Spoken like a true disciple of Obama, who via his penchant for voting "present", is a great believer in doing nothing.

Spence, the potential cost of doing nothing, is enormous. I cannot believe you don't already know this, but the cost of doing nohting, is that it sends a message to Assad and others like him, that the US is too impotent to prevent this kind of thing in the future.

The cost of doing nothing is that it invites subsequent war crimes.

How can you really ask that? Are you that naive? Or do you literally have zero empathy for anyone who wasn't as lucky as you and I, to be born in a place that values freedom?
Jim, I believe you are actually agreeing with Spence on this. Spence backs doing something, sending the message that the "international community," whatever that is, does not allow the use of really nasty weapons. Good old fashioned guns, and such, (the very weapons that regular folks should not possess and would be banned by the "international community") are OK.
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Old 09-05-2013, 09:23 AM   #71
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The WW3 talk is just fear mongering. None of the major players would benefit from it and hence it's not likely.

It doesn't appear that neither of the previous World Wars benefited anyone, but they happened anyway because of, among other things, escalating local and national disputes. Wasn't one of the reasons not to respond "irrationally" to various radical Islamic provocations exactly to avoid inflaming what the radicals wanted--a major worldwide jihad against the West and the infidels?

The point here wasn't to destroy all the chemical weapons, it was to send a message that the international community doesn't allow the use of them. At this point what's the cost of doing nothing?
-spence
Apparently, the "international community" is divided on many, many issues. Various nations within that "community" have stockpiles of such weapons. Not sure of why this international community would produce and stock stuff that it doesn't allow the use of.

And this "community" seems often to be paralyzed against "doing" something because, it seems, it usually contradicts itself. It really appears to be a house divided against itself, a rather rickety, crumbling house. Within such a "community" the cost of doing nothing, in the end, is not much different than doing "something."

The difference, when the dust settles, temporarily, is who gets what. Who is getting what in the dispute between tyrants and jihadists might make a difference to the U.S., but the tyrants may be more to our benefit than the others. And if it were really for the liberation of individuals from the oppression of a dictatorial State, and from the tyranny of an intolerant religion, it might be beneficial for us to actually fight for that liberation rather than merely send a message. Even unilaterally. But the Arab Spring, so far, doesn't indicate such liberation.

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Old 09-05-2013, 09:24 AM   #72
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LOL.
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Old 09-05-2013, 11:01 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by spence View Post
The WW3 talk is just fear mongering. None of the major players would benefit from it and hence it's not likely.

The point here wasn't to destroy all the chemical weapons, it was to send a message that the international community doesn't allow the use of them. At this point what's the cost of doing nothing?

-spence
Fear mongering and not likely?????
If you really think that, you have your head in the sand.
Iran would use any excuse for attacking Israel preemptively before Israel could
destroy their growing nuclear program. You don't think Israel would hesitate to
use nuclear weapons if attacked with chemical weapons? Once nuclear weapons are in play, it's any body's guess. Your not dealing with rational people here but with a myriad of countries with different agendas.
As stated before, NO ONE knows what the outcome of either attacking or not attacking would lead to. O got us into this mess with his pre election rhetoric.

BTW, please explain what O's red line is when it comes to Iran getting nuclear weapons in the very near future and what will he do. Hope he has built up a coalition and has a plan. Not likely.
Spence, this is not like Clinton sending a missile into an abandoned aspirin factory.

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Old 09-05-2013, 12:27 PM   #74
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Iran would use any excuse for attacking Israel preemptively before Israel could destroy their growing nuclear program.
I think there's zero chance Iran makes a pre-emptive strike on Israel. They are fully aware Tehran would be vaporized in an hour. Iran has no where to hide.

Quote:
Your not dealing with rational people here but with a myriad of countries with different agendas.
And for all of them the number one agenda item is staying in power.

This is pretty much the Syria story as well. Assad recognized he need to start showing some reforms as the Arab Spring heated up and had a new administration willing to talk...but the resistance was more than he gambled on and escalated quickly into a full on civil war.

Quote:
As stated before, NO ONE knows what the outcome of either attacking or not attacking would lead to. O got us into this mess with his pre election rhetoric.
That's nonsense, it would be a messy situation no matter what.

Quote:
BTW, please explain what O's red line is when it comes to Iran getting nuclear weapons in the very near future and what will he do. Hope he has built up a coalition and has a plan. Not likely.
Spence, this is not like Clinton sending a missile into an abandoned aspirin factory.
Iran will get a nuke regardless of any red line...even Israel can't stop them now...the bigger question is if that's a show stopper. Remember, that regime doesn't want to lose power as well.

-spence
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Old 09-05-2013, 02:25 PM   #75
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I think there's zero chance Iran makes a pre-emptive strike on Israel. They are fully aware Tehran would be vaporized in an hour. Iran has no where to hide.


for all of them the number one agenda item is staying in power.

This is pretty much the Syria story as well. Assad recognized he need to start showing some reforms as the Arab Spring heated up and had a new administration willing to talk...but the resistance was more than he gambled on and escalated quickly into a full on civil war.


That's nonsense, it would be a messy situation no matter what.


Iran will get a nuke regardless of any red line...even Israel can't stop them now...the bigger question is if that's a show stopper. Remember, that regime doesn't want to lose power as well.

-spence
"I think there's zero chance Iran makes a pre-emptive strike on Israel. They are fully aware Tehran would be vaporized in an hour. Iran has no where to hide"

Spence, think for a minute. Many of these people (perhaps the leaders of Iran, perhaps not) are so committed to their cause, that they don't fear consequences, that's how you get so many suicide bombers. You can't necessarily apply logic to these people. The kooky president of Iran has said he would gladly be a martyr to wipe Israel off the map. Whether or not he means it, who knows?

"for all of them the number one agenda item is staying in power."

Not for all of them. For some, the really scary ones, the number one item is serving Allah, even if, or especially if, they have to die in the process.

"Iran will get a nuke regardless of any red line...even Israel can't stop them now"

Sure they can. Israel has nukes today. Iran doesn't.

My bet is that Iran never gets a nuclear weapon, and it won't be Obama that stops them, it will be Israel. The Israelis will never allow Iran to get a nuke, they will do whatever it takes to stop that, and they will be justified to do it. That's my prediction.
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Old 09-05-2013, 03:51 PM   #76
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Spence, Jim did a nice job answering you point for point. Nothing further to say.

You and I are both speculating here as to the results of O's plan of a "shot across the bow" working,without need for further action or escalation of problems in the region. If that is your thinking, and it works, my hat will be off to you.
My problem has been, since day one, that there was no strategy or end game plan
and shooting from the hip, instead of looking at all your options , usually
doesn't turn out well. No crystal ball here, just looking at present and past history in that region.

Only time will tell.

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Old 09-05-2013, 03:57 PM   #77
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Backing the uprising in Iran sure looks like it might have been a good move .
Since this is all about credibility, won't that all change with a new President? I thought that's what happened when Bush left?
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Old 09-05-2013, 04:11 PM   #78
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The number one tool that governments use to strengthen their power hold on their country is fear. All this stuff is is fear mongering to get the people of this world to give in.
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Old 09-05-2013, 05:52 PM   #79
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Reuters- Russia sending a missile cruiser into the Mediteranian
to be joined by a destroyer and frigate.
No problem here, they say they don't want to get involved in a conflict in Syria.
We should feel much better now. Just a scare tactic, nothing could escalate.

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Old 09-05-2013, 06:29 PM   #80
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Fearmongering
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Old 09-05-2013, 06:40 PM   #81
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LOL.
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ROFLMAO is more like it.

I've never been more afraid of things to come.Obama and his supporters (sorry buckman this includes the mainstream GOP) are about to do something really stupid for which America and the west in general really don't need to be involved in.

Both sides have complete and total hatred of America,hell they can't even decide if they like themselves as inter-tribal warfare has been going on for a thousand+ years over who's the successor to muhammad.

As harsh as it may sound...LET THESE PEOPLE KILL ONE ANOTHER,its a win-win situation for the world.
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Old 09-05-2013, 10:49 PM   #82
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ROFLMAO is more like it.

I've never been more afraid of things to come.Obama and his supporters (sorry buckman this includes the mainstream GOP) are about to do something really stupid for which America and the west in general really don't need to be involved in.

Both sides have complete and total hatred of America,hell they can't even decide if they like themselves as inter-tribal warfare has been going on for a thousand+ years over who's the successor to muhammad.

As harsh as it may sound...LET THESE PEOPLE KILL ONE ANOTHER,its a win-win situation for the world.
I agree. As Sarah Palin said "let Allah sort it out"
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Old 09-06-2013, 06:48 AM   #83
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I've never been more afraid of things to come.
No need for us to be afraid of things to come, the new buzz word for those
favoring a strike is "fear mongering". Like a few words will do away with all the
unknowns of getting involved in a tinderbox of crazies.

I wonder what the O sheepels would be saying if this mess was caused by a Bush
red line ????
LOL

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Old 09-06-2013, 09:01 AM   #84
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As unAmercan as this sounds, at this point I trust Russian intelligence more then our own . They believe the rebels released the gas.
Let's not forget , The Boston bombing wouldn't have happened if the Russians were in charge .
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Old 09-06-2013, 09:24 AM   #85
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As unAmercan as this sounds, at this point I trust Russian intelligence more then our own . They believe the rebels released the gas.
Let's not forget , The Boston bombing wouldn't have happened if the Russians were in charge .
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As unamerican as this sounds, I'd rather have a beer with Putin than Obama. (Although I'd leave my Super Bowl ring at home if i had one). Putin has more street smarts than Obama and seems to have a plan for everything he does. Putin could out smart Obama one on one. The dude has Moxie.......even though he is a commie bastard.
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"I know a taxidermy man back home. He gonna have a heart attack when he see what I brung him!"
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Old 09-06-2013, 09:38 AM   #86
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As unAmercan as this sounds, at this point I trust Russian intelligence more then our own . They believe the rebels released the gas.
Let's not forget , The Boston bombing wouldn't have happened if the Russians were in charge .
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The same way we flew planes into the World Trade Center?
Weren't the Tsarnaev's from Russia?

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Old 09-06-2013, 10:26 AM   #87
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The same way we flew planes into the World Trade Center?
Weren't the Tsarnaev's from Russia?
Let's not get stupid here
The Russians warned us not once but twice about the Tsarnauv's
That's a known fact .
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Old 09-06-2013, 11:07 AM   #88
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Oh I don't know Buck, look how fast and accurate the WH came up with the
intelligence report on how "the tape" was the reason for the uprising in Libiya
and the deaths of 4 Americans in Benghazi.

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Old 09-06-2013, 12:02 PM   #89
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Oh I don't know Buck, look how fast and accurate the WH came up with the
intelligence report on how "the tape" was the reason for the uprising in Libiya
and the deaths of 4 Americans in Benghazi.
Not true ! They said it was terrorism from day one . LMAO
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Old 09-06-2013, 05:18 PM   #90
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Let's not get stupid here
The Russians warned us not once but twice about the Tsarnauv's
That's a known fact .
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It is also well known the Chechens got the Russians with their pants down.
definition of oxymoron;
military intelligence....

Call me naive,but I will be very surprised if the rebels gassed themselves to get our help. It is this type of conspiracy theory that I put in the WTC category.

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