Israel and World War Three

[spence]

There's no way to justify the seemingly random terror attacks that Isreal has...

That being said, their actions have often been over the top.

An objective person looks to where the power is, and tries to stay objective.

It's all relative.

-spence

[RIJIMMY]

sooo, Isreal pulled out of gaza, demolished jewish settlers houses, had the miltary pull civilains from their own homes and kept EVERY promise they made.

Over the top? Maybe to their own people, when are the Palesinians going to do someting....anything, other than provoke and kill???

[RIJIMMY]

September 12 2005
Completion of Israel's unilateral disengagement plan. Israel removes all Jewish settlements and military equipment from the disputed territory of the Gaza Strip, ending its control of the area taken from Egypt as a result of the Six-Day War of 1967.

[RIJIMMY]

Take a look at this....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli...tember_12_2005

notice how the outline says,,,,Isreal Complies, Isreal Withdraws, Isreal agrees...etc. the you have, Isreal responds to missle attacks, Isreal hit with Suidice bombers, etc.....
seems a little off balance,,no?

[spence]

Originally Posted by RIJIMMY

Maybe to their own people, when are the Palesinians going to do someting....anything, other than provoke and kill???

I think the important point you're missing is that for the most part the Palestenian people are completely disenfranchised.

It's not a level playing field, which contributes a lot to the use of terror...a leveling force.

The notion that Isreal's %$%$%$%$ has never stunk is pretty absurd...but as I indicated earlier...there's plenty of blame on both sides.

Looks like the situation is getting worse today...a dangerous game being played for sure.

-spence

[RIJIMMY]

Didnt say that, but they are at least trying, with NO support from Arab countries

[spence]

Originally Posted by RIJIMMY

Take a look at this....notice how the outline says,,,,Isreal Complies, Isreal Withdraws, Isreal agrees...etc. the you have, Isreal responds to missle attacks, Isreal hit with Suidice bombers, etc.....
seems a little off balance,,no?

Read the history from an Arab perspective and it looks quite different

-spence

[RIJIMMY]

I didnt read it from any persectuve, since Im not jewish nor Arab (actually I am part Lebanese).

I just dont think Isreals actions are unjustified, they have taken extreme measures (gaza pullout) for peace, they then should take extreme measures on the other end, war.

[spence]

Originally Posted by RIJIMMY

I just dont think Isreals actions are unjustified, they have taken extreme measures (gaza pullout) for peace, they then should take extreme measures on the other end, war.

I think individual actions like the Gaza pull-out need to be looked at in context. Yes, the images of the IDF pulling Jewish settlers out of their homes in Gaza were dramatic...but should they have been there in the first place?

It's not like that was a concession as much as a strategic change in position or policy.

It's a very complicated mix of issues for sure.

-spence

["uffah!!"]

Spence, what ever you do for a living, its the wrong thing. You should be in Washington,DC solving the worlds problems. I have never seen one person be on the wrong side of sooooooo many isues in my life. The only thing I agree with, is the fact that this administration needs a big change. And that change is replace all the Democrats with new ones.

[NaCl H2O]

Originally Posted by spence

I think the important point you're missing is that for the most part the Palestenian people are completely disenfranchised.

It's not a level playing field, which contributes a lot to the use of terror...a leveling force.

The notion that Isreal's %$%$%$%$ has never stunk is pretty absurd...but as I indicated earlier...there's plenty of blame on both sides.

Looks like the situation is getting worse today...a dangerous game being played for sure.

-spence

If the playing field was level, Israel would be wiped off the face of the map.

[spence]

Originally Posted by uffah!!

Spence, what ever you do for a living, its the wrong thing. You should be in Washington,DC solving the worlds problems. I have never seen one person be on the wrong side of sooooooo many isues in my life. The only thing I agree with, is the fact that this administration needs a big change. And that change is replace all the Democrats with new ones.

And how exactly am I on the wrong side of this issue? Simply because I put the welfare of 300 million americans ahead of 6 million Israelis?

I'd like you to let me know what side of this issue I'm on, because I don't think you really have a clue

-spence

[Skip N]

Originally Posted by spence

And how exactly am I on the wrong side of this issue? Simply because I put the welfare of 300 million americans ahead of 6 million Israelis?

I'd like you to let me know what side of this issue I'm on, because I don't think you really have a clue

-spence

You seem to be blaming Isreal for everything and not putting any blame on the Palestinian thugs who start most of this, Isreal has every right to bomb the %$%$%$%$ out of Hamas and Hezballah anytime one of the groups fire rockets and kill Isreali children. I cant beleieve you are on the side of the Palestinians on this issue, You are so on the wrong side. Suporting the Palestinians and thier tacics is not much differerent than showing support for Al Qeada. They are pretty much the same in the tacics they use. This my friend, is why you are on the wrong side of this conflict. All you seem to do is rip Isreal and attempt to justfy the "Palestinian cause" Whatever the hell the damn cause is anyway.

Props to Isreal for taking action again Lebanon, if Hezbalah is storing arms and organizing murder in Isreal, i say good for Isreal for protecting its people. But i know you have a problem with Isreal going on the offesive and protecing its citizens from being slaughtered, dont you Spence?

Isreal has the right to take action, just like the US had the right to take action after our people were slaughterd on 9/11. Only in Isreal, they see mini 9/11's on a daily basis, rocket attacks, suicide bombings etc.

[spence]

Originally Posted by Skip N

Suporting the Palestinians and thier tacics is not much differerent than showing support for Al Qeada. They are pretty much the same in the tacics they use. This my friend, is why you are on the wrong side of this conflict.

Skippy, your mind is in a very small box indeed

And please don't pretend to understand what my position is, because you...like Uffah don't get it.

-spence

[Skitterpop]

Spence is a well read diplomat and a decent guy...give him a break

I never said who I thought was right or wrong...it cannot be that simple.

What I have said before and am saying now is that this recent conflagration, only one of many over numerous years, could become a catalyst for a World War of an even more pronounced and elevated stature then the one we have been living already for some years.

Its scary really.

Let us try to get along if you will....

[spence]

Originally Posted by Skitterpop

Spence is a well read diplomat and a decent guy...give him a break

Awwww shucks

I never said who I thought was right or wrong...it cannot be that simple.

Agreed. It is very complicated and there's been bad behavior on both sides...that's not a statement of parity mind you.

What I have said before and am saying now is that this recent conflagration, only one of many over numerous years, could become a catalyst for a World War of an even more pronounced and elevated stature then the one we have been living already for some years.

It's becoming more clear what Israel intends here, to drive a wedge between the various Palestenian factions. It certainly is risky though...

I think a key factor is that a broader war really doesn't benefit anyone in this situation. Israel looks to be after some incremental gain that may help stabalize the Palestenian government...if it doesn't destroy it in the process.

It's like chemotherapy

-spence

[spence]

Originally Posted by Skip N

All you seem to do is rip Isreal and attempt to justfy the "Palestinian cause" Whatever the hell the damn cause is anyway.

This is a very interesting statement, I can't believe Skippy is that stupid.

Skippy, could you please elaborate?

-spence

[MakoMike]

Originally Posted by spence

I think the important point you're missing is that for the most part the Palestenian people are completely disenfranchised.

Sure you got the right word there Spence? If I'm not mistaken they recently used their franchise to elect a Hezbolla government.

[RIJIMMY]

Hamas
but its all the same.

[Skitterpop]

Israel bombards Beirut amid spiraling attacks




Thursday, July 13, 2006; Posted: 12:04 p.m. EDT (16:04 GMT)

var clickExpire = "-1";


if(!cnnUseDelayedCSI){cnnAddCSI('imageChanger0','/2006/WORLD/meast/07/13/mideast/imgChng/p0-0.exclude.html','pNo=0');}
var cnnStoryUrl = 'http://robots.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/07/13/mideast/index.html';var cnnDisplayDomesticCL = 1; var cnnDisplayIntlCL = 1;
BEIRUT, Lebanon (CNN) -- Israel's warplanes bombed Beirut's international airport and its navy blockaded Lebanon's ports in a sharp escalation of a military campaign Thursday.



Hezbollah guerrillas fired scores of rockets from Lebanon into northern Israel in the most intense bombardment in years.
Some 45 people and two soldiers have been killed inside Lebanon since Wednesday, the country's health ministry said, while the rocket attacks killed at least one woman in Israel.
Beirut's Rafik Hariri International Airport was forced to close after Israeli fighter jets hit all three of its runways, leaving huge craters that made them unusable.
Two other Lebanese airports were attacked Thursday morning, the Israel Defense Forces said.
The IDF gave no details, but Lebanese army sources said that the Rayak Air Base in the Bekaa Valley near the Syrian border had been hit as well as a small military airport in Qulayaat in northern Lebanon.
Israel said it targeted the international airport in the capital's suburbs because it was a transfer point for weapons and supplies to Hezbollah, the militant group that captured two Israeli soldiers and killed eight others in raids this week.
Lebanese Interior Minister Ahmed Fatfat called the airport strikes a "general act of war," saying they had nothing to do with Hezbollah but were instead an attack against the country's "economic interests," especially its tourism industry. All Beirut-bound flights are having to be diverted.
Lebanese Information Minister Ghazi Aridi called for a comprehensive cease-fire, saying the Lebanese government had nothing to do with the Hezbollah attacks.
After Israel's airport strike, planes began dropping leaflets warning residents of an impending attack on an area of southern Beirut where Hezbollah leader Hassan Nasrallah is believed to live. (Watch initial reports on the runway bombings -- 6:00)
If such a strike happened, Hezbollah said it would attack the northern Israeli city of Haifa, where 300,000 people live.
The U.S. Navy moved a small military tug out of Haifa after the threat.
Israel: 'We mean business'

Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas said Thursday he fears a "regional war is mounting" with Israel's military campaigns in Lebanon and Gaza, where forces were deployed after last month's capture of an Israeli soldier.
"This is not our interest and will not bring peace and stability to the region," Abbas said, referring to "this [Israeli] aggression."
President Bush said all countries had a right to defend themselves butwarned Israel to take care not to "weaken" Lebanon's government.
Bush also stressed during a visit to Germany that Syria "needs to be held to account."
Hezbollah enjoys substantial backing from Syria and Iran and is considered a terrorist organization by the United States and Israel. The group holds posts in Lebanon's government.
Israeli Security Cabinet Minister Isaac Herzog said: "We are taking strong measures so that it will be clear to the Lebanese people and government ... that we mean business."
The United Nations will send a team to the Middle East to urge both sides to use restraint, a spokesman for Secretary-General Kofi Annan said Thursday.
Captives named

Israeli airstrikes were aimed at targets used by Hezbollah for storing weapons, the IDF said.
Warplanes also hit al-Manar television station because Hezbollah uses it to incite and recruit activists, the IDF said. A broadcast tower was destroyed and three people injured, but the station was able to continue broadcasting, al-Manar editor Ibrahim Moussawi said.
Israel's Cabinet authorized a "severe and harsh" response to the abduction of the two soldiers, named Thursday as Ehud Goldvasser, 31, from Nahariya, and Eldad Regev, 26, from the Haifa suburb of Kiryat Motzkin.
Hezbollah called for a prisoner exchange but, as in Gaza, Israel has rejected the call.
Hezbollah chief Nasrallah told reporters that seizing the soldiers was "our natural, only and logical right" to win freedom for Hezbollah prisoners held by Israel.
Nasrallah said the two soldiers had been taken to a place "far, far away" and that an Israeli military campaign would not win their release.
More than 70 Katyusha rockets have hit Israel in the past 24 hours, the IDF said.
Missiles critically injured one person and hurt at least 10 others in Safed, about 13 miles (20 kilometers) from the Lebanese border, which local officials said not been hit by Hezbollah rockets since 1972. (Watch the rocket's explosion and town chaos -- 1:45)
Also in northern Israel, a woman was killed and 15 people hurt in a rocket attack in Nahariya, and at least 38 people were injured when rockets hit the Arab village of Carmiel, Israeli ambulance services said.
CNN's Barbara Starr and John Vause and journalist Anthony Mills in Beirut contributed to this report.

[spence]

Originally Posted by MakoMike

Sure you got the right word there Spence? If I'm not mistaken they recently used their franchise to elect a Hezbolla government.

Yes, it's the right word...the elections were only recently, hence the conditional "for the most part".

And I believe there were some Hizbolla members elected along with Hamas, just not as many.

The key of course is that the people are looking for stability. I don't believe they elected Hamas as an endorsement of terrorisim, but rather Hamas was simply less corrupt than the PLO! The non-militant wings of these parties are a major provider of basic services to many people over there...

This isn't a good vs evil debate as much as some would like you to believe...fundamentally it's about humans dealing with reality, which is quite nuanced anyway you slice it. A child blown up by a homicide bomber, or an errant IDF strike doesn't really care what was motivating the violence.

-spence

[RIJIMMY]

lets send Jimmy Carter over there, I bet he can use some of those great diplomacy skills he used to free the US hostages from Iran to free the Israeli hostages......oh wait a minute....

[spence]

Originally Posted by RIJIMMY

lets send Jimmy Carter over there, I bet he can use some of those great diplomacy skills he used to free the US hostages from Iran to free the Israeli hostages......oh wait a minute....

Well, what goes around comes around...those hostages might have never been taken had the US not meddeled so much in the Iranian government

-spence

[RIJIMMY]

Originally Posted by spence

Well, what goes around comes around...those hostages might have never been taken had the US not meddeled so much in the Iranian government

-spence

of course, we deserved it! I wonder how many of you could have predicted Spence's response?

[Skip N]

Originally Posted by RIJIMMY

of course, we deserved it! I wonder how many of you could have predicted Spence's response?

I'm waiting for the "Its Bush's fault" response next. Its so predictable.

[Skip N]

[QUOTE=Skitterpop]Spence is a well read diplomat and a decent guy...give him a break QUOTE]

So i cant challenge his views because he's a "decent guy"? Get real and learn how to debate. Just because someones a solid gut doesnt mean i cant challenge his views.

I'm sure Jimmy Carter's a pretty good guy too, but he's a nut when it comes to his political views!

[Skitterpop]

Can you read Skip?

[spence]

Originally Posted by RIJIMMY

of course, we deserved it! I wonder how many of you could have predicted Spence's response?

Not placing blame, just trying to remain objective. There are a lot of lessons to be learned from history, and to ignore the role that our influence has had on many global events doesn't bode well for the future.

Our leaders have done a number of bad things thinking they were in the public interest at the time, some of them may have been worth it...and some not. This isn't a liberal notion, it's just reality.

-spence

[Flaptail]

Question "Do you believe in God?" Answer "No", bang your dead.

Question "Do you believe in God?" Answer "yes", Question, "Do you believe in my God?" Answer "No", bang your dead. George Carlin

Religion, one of the best and worst things ever to be. Causes more death, war, turmoil than any other one single cause. Besides oil of course.

Yes, the world is holdin on by a thread and total chaos is only a breath away. We are in tow many places where we don't belong, fighting to "right" causes that have been and will be around for the next thousand years. We know nothing of tribal and factional infighting and should not meddle in something that will never cease to be.

10% of Salvadoran nationals live and work in the US, most illegally.
20% of Mexican nationals live and work here also, along with like and higher percentages of Brazilians, Guatemalans etc. 80% of those only are here for the money and could care less about our country itself. They send thier money home, spend little here and when they die they are sent home to be buried. Time to become a more insular country and stop being the worlds top cop, administer of culture, political ideologies and religion.

Yes the world is about to go boom, war is good for the economy you know, and when it's all over and the world scene is a different place we will lick our wounds and somehow come to the realization that we were wrong and eventually tee shirts, hats, sneakers, electronics and just about everything else will carry a label made in Iran, made in Iraq made in Syria just like now going to Old Navy and buying shirts made in Viet Nam.

Carry on.

[clambelly]

the two sides have been fighting since before the birth of Christ.
however...the UN and the EU almost always lay the blame for these things right in the lap of Isreal. its like being an older brother and having a little brother who is always causing trouble. you smack the kid down when he's doing something wrong and mom and dad tell you that its your fault for hitting him. puhlease...the terrorist groups are enabled by the left and their sympathic view points towards them, and their blantent hatred for Isreal.

in case anyone hasn't noticed, Europe is a pretty anti-semetic place these days.