No lockdown, no masks, nNo hysteria... NO PROBLEM: Sweden didn't go into a lockdown a

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by Pete F.

He's not a college history professor and TV personality like Sandbrook

Sandbrook went to Sweden and reported on what he saw. He provided some economic charts which he didn't invent.

If you want to say that a mere history professor cannot truly describe what he sees, that may be more a comment on your narrow minded way of understanding.

You need to learn that simple anecdotal evidence proves nothing but sounds great when it seems to validate your point.

I wasn't trying to prove anything. I don't know the answer as you seem to think you do. The people of Sweden he talked to and observed, if Sandbrook isn't lying, seem to be happy that they didn't have to experience a lockdown.

As far as your claim that VT and Sweden had the same results
Sweden's infection and death rate is far greater than Vermont's
Vermont population is 625K with 1572 infections and 58 deaths
Sweden population is 10.5M with 158K infections and 2600 deaths

I didn't say they had the same results, I said the "same" result you noted--"And many doctors could say the same in Vermont"

Would you like to compare New York's stats to Sweden. Comparing stats might tell a story. If the people of Sweden are happier with their results than we are, that might tell a story.

I honestly don't know. Do you?

[Pete F.]

Originally Posted by detbuch

I didn't say they had the same results, I said the "same" result you noted--"And many doctors could say the same in Vermont"

Would you like to compare New York's stats to Sweden. Comparing stats might tell a story. If the people of Sweden are happier with their results than we are, that might tell a story.

I honestly don't know. Do you?

What I do know is the USA has the highest number of infections and deaths in the world and the CDC, changing its Covid-19 testing guidelines, no longer recommends testing for most people without symptoms, even if they've been in close contact with someone known to have the virus. Many doctors are puzzled by the agency's change.

Tweety: spends 6 months explaining he wants less covid testing so that his numbers look better.

CDC: suddenly changes guidelines to cut back on testing without explanation.

Media: "we have no info about why the CDC would do such a perplexing thing, it is an unknowable mystery".

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by Pete F.

What I do know is the USA has the highest number of infections and deaths in the world and the CDC, changing its Covid-19 testing guidelines, no longer recommends testing for most people without symptoms, even if they've been in close contact with someone known to have the virus. Many doctors are puzzled by the agency's change.

Tweety: spends 6 months explaining he wants less covid testing so that his numbers look better.

CDC: suddenly changes guidelines to cut back on testing without explanation.

Media: "we have no info about why the CDC would do such a perplexing thing, it is an unknowable mystery".

So you shift to your usual change the subject as a means to insert another supposed black mark for Trump. It becomes a futile endeavor to respond to your posts, since the responses just become spring boards for some new attack point for you.

That's a good strategy in war, but a killer of rational conversation.

Very, very often, if we wait a few days, we find that what seemed like a nefarious action, is actually the opposite. Let's wait and see. There is already this response in the Washington Times: https://www.washingtontimes.com/news...-not-argue-an/

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by PaulS

How about wearing a mask?

And the states that had shutdowns and slowly opened were decreasing until the virus started to come back from the other states. You're the one brought up driving a car (which we use to take my dad to his Drs. appts). my wearing a mask is pretty noninvasive.

I wear a mask, and can't believe people make a stink about it. Similarly, I can't believe you'd deny the parallel between accepting deaths from car accidents (we don't ban cars) and accepting deaths from disease (no school, closing bars, restaurants, churches, etc)

All large social gatherings, except BLM protests and the VMA awards, are banned it seems. It's absurd that you'd equate our societal shutdown, with having to obey speed limits. As I said, anything to avoid admitting your side might have flawed logic.

[Pete F.]

Originally Posted by detbuch

I didn't say they had the same results, I said the "same" result you noted--"And many doctors could say the same in Vermont"

Would you like to compare New York's stats to Sweden. Comparing stats might tell a story. If the people of Sweden are happier with their results than we are, that might tell a story.

I honestly don't know. Do you?

Originally Posted by Pete F.

What I do know is the USA has the highest number of infections and deaths in the world and the CDC, changing its Covid-19 testing guidelines, no longer recommends testing for most people without symptoms, even if they've been in close contact with someone known to have the virus. Many doctors are puzzled by the agency's change.

Tweety: spends 6 months explaining he wants less covid testing so that his numbers look better.

CDC: suddenly changes guidelines to cut back on testing without explanation.

Media: "we have no info about why the CDC would do such a perplexing thing, it is an unknowable mystery".

Originally Posted by detbuch

So you shift to your usual change the subject as a means to insert another supposed black mark for Trump.
Who changed the subject? "Would you like to compare New York's stats to Sweden."
It becomes a futile endeavor to respond to your posts, since the responses just become spring boards for some new attack point for you.

That's a good strategy in war, but a killer of rational conversation.

Very, very often, if we wait a few days, we find that what seemed like a nefarious action, is actually the opposite. Let's wait and see. There is already this response in the Washington Times: https://www.washingtontimes.com/news...-not-argue-an/

That's not a response, just confusing baloney without evidence.

Alison Galvani
Director of the Center for Infectious Disease Modeling and Analysis (CIDMA), Burnett and Stender Families' Professor of Epidemiology, Yale University
The CDC just revised their testing guidance to exclude people without symptoms. Our work on the ‘silent’ spread underscores the importance of testing people who have been exposed to #COVID-19 regardless of symptoms. This change in policy will kill.

Meanwhile in places where it is not just the flu, that actually shut down and don't claim they have done a great job while having the worst results in the world.

New covid-19 deaths, yesterday:

Spain: 52
France: 16
Japan: 15
Canada: 7
UK: 16
Germany: 9

United States: 1,290

Population of countries above: 426 million
Population of United States: 328 million

[Got Stripers]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

I wear a mask, and can't believe people make a stink about it. Similarly, I can't believe you'd deny the parallel between accepting deaths from car accidents (we don't ban cars) and accepting deaths from disease (no school, closing bars, restaurants, churches, etc)

All large social gatherings, except BLM protests and the VMA awards, are banned it seems. It's absurd that you'd equate our societal shutdown, with having to obey speed limits. As I said, anything to avoid admitting your side might have flawed logic.

Are you seriously trying to suggest because we don’t ban cars to prevent less than 40,000 deaths yearly, that we shouldn’t have closed down like we did? That’s an argument you could never win. First those 40K car deaths aren’t all due to cars, many are due to alcohol, animal strikes or just driver fatigue. We will I’m sure surpass 200,000 deaths soon and that’s WITH a partial to full (depending on local government) shut down, I can’t even imagine the death toll if we hadn’t shut down. If you are making the case that the old, the medically vulnerable, or the brave first responders should have been sacrificed so the economy didn’t crash, Trump would in the back of his self centered pea brain probably wish that were the track they took.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by Got Stripers

Are you seriously trying to suggest because we don’t ban cars to prevent less than 40,000 deaths yearly, that we shouldn’t have closed down like we did? That’s an argument you could never win. First those 40K car deaths aren’t all due to cars, many are due to alcohol, animal strikes or just driver fatigue. We will I’m sure surpass 200,000 deaths soon and that’s WITH a partial to full (depending on local government) shut down, I can’t even imagine the death toll if we hadn’t shut down. If you are making the case that the old, the medically vulnerable, or the brave first responders should have been sacrificed so the economy didn’t crash, Trump would in the back of his self centered pea brain probably wish that were the track they took.

What I said, is that there are MANY cases where we accept that a meaningful (and fully preventable) number of deaths will occur, in order to maintain a quality of life. But we aren't willing to maintain or normal way of life for covid. I'm not saying the lockdowns were wrong, I don't know, too many "experts" contradicting each other for me to say anything with any confidence. But I can make a valid case that we make many public policy decisions that we know will result in American deaths. The reason we don't do it, is because we don't want to deal with the imposition on our lives.

"those 40K car deaths aren’t all due to cars"

but the deaths would be avoided if there were no cars. Not all covid deatsh are strictly related to covid either. We know there has been overcounting, and we know some were already very sick and didn't have long to live anyway.

You're not refuting my case.

"We will I’m sure surpass 200,000 deaths soon and that’s WITH a partial to full (depending on local government) shut down, I can’t even imagine the death toll if we hadn’t shut down."

Yet some countries didn't shut down, and don't have death rates that exceeded ours. Lots of moving pieces, and I don't understand the science enough to conclude the correlation between lockdowns and lives saved. But the existence of countries that didn't lock down and have low death rates, appear to contradict your assumption that death rates decrease with the magnitude of the lockdowns. CT and NY have brutal lockdowns and some of the highest death rates in the nation.

Also, in the worst flu season ever, we never discussed for a second, these kinds of shutdowns.

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by Pete F.

Who changed the subject? "Would you like to compare New York's stats to Sweden."

The thread was about an article re Sweden's lack of lockdown. You made some kind of possible comparison to that article's message to Vermont. I figured if Vermont's lockdown and stats was supposed to be relevant to the Sweden article, then so would NY's lockdown and stats--all notions supposedly having some significance to what was said in the article. You skipped over the NY vs Sweden relevance and jumped to the CDC change in testing policy. Seemed like a complete change of subject to me.

That's not a response, just confusing baloney without evidence.

The Washington Times article was indeed a response.
I wasn't confused by it. There is no evidence that the CDC new policy is supposed to be some order by Trump to make statistics look better.
That's conjecture. It also mentions that it is left to the states to continue testing as they wish. Which really is more in line with federalism than some edict from the high and mighty federal government.


New covid-19 deaths, yesterday:

Spain: 52
France: 16
Japan: 15
Canada: 7
UK: 16
Germany: 9

United States: 1,290

Population of countries above: 426 million
Population of United States: 328 million

Sweden had one new death.

[Ian]

Originally Posted by detbuch

Your point?

You're right, its the same # of people.

[Got Stripers]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

What I said, is that there are MANY cases where we accept that a meaningful (and fully preventable) number of deaths will occur, in order to maintain a quality of life. But we aren't willing to maintain or normal way of life for covid. I'm not saying the lockdowns were wrong, I don't know, too many "experts" contradicting each other for me to say anything with any confidence. But I can make a valid case that we make many public policy decisions that we know will result in American deaths. The reason we don't do it, is because we don't want to deal with the imposition on our lives.

"those 40K car deaths aren’t all due to cars"

but the deaths would be avoided if there were no cars. Not all covid deatsh are strictly related to covid either. We know there has been overcounting, and we know some were already very sick and didn't have long to live anyway.

You're not refuting my case.

"We will I’m sure surpass 200,000 deaths soon and that’s WITH a partial to full (depending on local government) shut down, I can’t even imagine the death toll if we hadn’t shut down."

Yet some countries didn't shut down, and don't have death rates that exceeded ours. Lots of moving pieces, and I don't understand the science enough to conclude the correlation between lockdowns and lives saved. But the existence of countries that didn't lock down and have low death rates, appear to contradict your assumption that death rates decrease with the magnitude of the lockdowns. CT and NY have brutal lockdowns and some of the highest death rates in the nation.

Also, in the worst flu season ever, we never discussed for a second, these kinds of shutdowns.

I can’t say for certainty, but I would bet countries that didn’t shut down and did reasonably well, are not full of the selfish it’s all about me and my rights and my fun American youth. If we didn’t lock down I’d bet the numbers would be really high and the shut down would have been required even if late and the damages far worse.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by Got Stripers

I can’t say for certainty, but I would bet countries that didn’t shut down and did reasonably well, are not full of the selfish it’s all about me and my rights and my fun American youth. If we didn’t lock down I’d bet the numbers would be really high and the shut down would have been required even if late and the damages far worse.

You may well be right. But then why did NY allow anti police protests?

[Got Stripers]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

You may well be right. But then why did NY allow anti police protests?

I thought I addressed that, because it’s our right.

[Pete F.]

Originally Posted by detbuch

Sweden had one new death.

Hey remember when Trump said in Tulsa that he wanted to decrease COVID-19 testing and Trump's critics said he definitely means it so this needs to be investigated immediately and Trump and you said no I was joking so media ignored it and now it turns out he was of course totally serious?
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by Got Stripers

I thought I addressed that, because it’s our right.

No. NYC banned all large gatherings, except for anti police protests. So please point me to the section of the constitution, which specifies that the right to assembly can be rescinded except for assemblies which help democrats win elections? Diblasio said very explicitly, that liberal protesters had the right, but no one else did.

Defend that.

[Pete F.]

Now tell us about Tulsa and who’s that pizza man that loved Tweety?
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by Pete F.

Hey remember when Trump said in Tulsa that he wanted to decrease COVID-19 testing and Trump's critics said he definitely means it so this needs to be investigated immediately and Trump and you said no I was joking so media ignored it and now it turns out he was of course totally serious?
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

I don't remember him saying that he wanted to decrease the testing. I remember him saying jokingly that he told his people to slow down the testing because they were doing so much that it created larger numbers of cases. I also remember him being proud of the most testing in the world. I also remember that he did not actually tell anybody to do less testing. That nobody could find evidence or acknowledgement that he told anybody to do less testing. And that his sarcasm was exactly to call attention to the amount of testing being done, attention he didn't think, rightly, that he was being given credit for.

And Sweden had one new death.

[Pete F.]

Interesting that some think we should emulate Sweden in virus control but we can’t do healthcare similar to theirs because they are a more heterogeneous society and therefore it would never succeed here.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[Got Stripers]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

No. NYC banned all large gatherings, except for anti police protests. So please point me to the section of the constitution, which specifies that the right to assembly can be rescinded except for assemblies which help democrats win elections? Diblasio said very explicitly, that liberal protesters had the right, but no one else did.

Defend that.

If Trump pulled the trigger on some foreign engagement that brought protesters out in numbers, I have no doubt N.Y. would have been forced to allow it if the numbers were of the same size. The same would have been true in any other state, if the movement of the time brings people out in the streets there is little enforcement can do provided its peaceful, in spite of Covid restrictions. The looters and fu*ck heads destroying property are just idiots, they are doing exactly what a Trump wants them to do (think on that for a minute), the more they burn, destroy and ruin the livelihoods of local citizens, the more Trump takes pleasure (still pondering that) in pointing his law and order finger to say see what’s coming if you don’t elect me. He stokes it and he loves to see the rioting, it’s perfect campaign fodder for him and his base.

[Pete F.]

Originally Posted by detbuch

And Sweden had one new death.

And now for the rest of the story

https://icds.ee/en/covid-19-policy-i...of-admiration/

[Pete F.]

Originally Posted by detbuch

I don't remember him saying that he wanted to decrease the testing. I remember him saying jokingly that he told his people to slow down the testing because they were doing so much that it created larger numbers of cases. I also remember him being proud of the most testing in the world. I also remember that he did not actually tell anybody to do less testing. That nobody could find evidence or acknowledgement that he told anybody to do less testing. And that his sarcasm was exactly to call attention to the amount of testing being done, attention he didn't think, rightly, that he was being given credit for.

As usual there is video

Claiming that you have done the "most" testing in the world is playing with numbers. Testing percentage based on population was lower than many other countries at that time. Since then we have gotten better at testing but if recent reports are true it seems we are now going, once again, in the wrong direction for political reasons.
https://ourworldindata.org/coronavirus-testing

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by Pete F.

As usual there is video

Claiming that you have done the "most" testing in the world is playing with numbers. Testing percentage based on population was lower than many other countries at that time. Since then we have gotten better at testing but if recent reports are true it seems we are now going, once again, in the wrong direction for political reasons.
https://ourworldindata.org/coronavirus-testing

We've already seen these videos and discussed them. They are misleading. As Spence used to say, it's in the archives. No point in beating a dead horse with you. You just keep repeating the same chit no matter that it's been debunked. You keep applying the Nazi big lie method knowing enough people will believe it.

[Pete F.]

Originally Posted by detbuch

We've already seen these videos and discussed them. They are misleading. As Spence used to say, it's in the archives. No point in beating a dead horse with you. You just keep repeating the same chit no matter that it's been debunked. You keep applying the Nazi big lie method knowing enough people will believe it.

He said it and said he wasn’t kidding and then lied some more

Tweety’s the master gaslighter
Just don’t believe your lying eyes and trust in Tweety
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by Pete F.

He said it and said he wasn’t kidding and then lied some more

Tweety’s the master gaslighter
Just don’t believe your lying eyes and trust in Tweety
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

As I've said, I already discussed these. They are selected tidbits made to look like something they're not. You need to cling to you're misinforation videos to pump up your narrative. And you will keep doing so.

[Pete F.]

Originally Posted by detbuch

As I've said, I already discussed these. They are selected tidbits made to look like something they're not. You need to cling to you're misinforation videos to pump up your narrative. And you will keep doing so.

No narrative required

5M infected
180K dead

It is what is
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by Pete F.

No narrative required

5M infected
180K dead

It is what is
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

Old news.

[Pete F.]

Originally Posted by detbuch

Old news.

In the past 14 days
45K new cases
1200 more deaths
Hotspots in Tweety’s states
Must be time to quit testing and go to school
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by Pete F.

In the past 14 days
45K new cases
1200 more deaths
Hotspots in Tweety’s states
Must be time to quit testing and go to school
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

Old news.

[Pete F.]

CDC director Redfield is walking back CDC guideline not to test asymptomatics!!! Facing criticism, he now says “testing may be considered for all close contacts of confirmed or probable Covid-19 patients.”

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by Pete F.

CDC director Redfield is walking back CDC guideline not to test asymptomatics!!! Facing criticism, he now says “testing may be considered for all close contacts of confirmed or probable Covid-19 patients.”

I'm guessing the significant part of this for you is the "facing criticism"

[Pete F.]

Senior White House Official Tells CNN That "Everybody" in America Will Get COVID-19; White House Statement Is Consistent With Trump's Reported Desire to Execute a "Herd Immunity" Pandemic Response; Experts Say Such a Plan Would Kill Millions

The only solution to this is to protect yourself and your family and your community from the President of the United States by ignoring him and any entity under his command. Put your trust in state and local health officials and national and international medical experts.