IF ---

[scottw]

[QUOTE=RIROCKHOUND;619831]Quote: Yeah,. damn it's hot lately...according to the instruments, the planet hasn't warmed since 1998 (coffee break) and we may be in a cycle of cooling, that's gonna piss AL Gore off..Quote


If you are going to post cute edits to stuff, double-check some of it.
10 of the hottest years on records are in the last 15 years.

That Arctic sea ice must just need a coffee break, thats why it keeps disappearing....

damn this planet, get on board already.

I said the planet hasn't warmed since 1998, that's the baseline that the left uses to point to the begining of the end, there is some controversy over the "Hockeystick" but that might be too confusing for you...we have been cooler since 1998 despite an overall increase in CO2 since then, there are more than a few scientists that are now predicting an overall cooling of the planet, have you been outside??? Sunspot activity, or lack there of being one of the culprits for both the current cooling and the spike in 1998 but overall we're heading in the opposite direction from the alarmists claims which is why "climate change" is now replacing "global warming", that way they can get ya coming or going...are you sure your GPA was that high?

[buckman]

Originally Posted by spence

Not really funny or ironic. Desperate? Yes.

-spence

Your right it's a sad statement on the attitude of the left in this state. Thanks for bringing me to my senses.

Why would I be desperate? My guy's in the lead

[Swimmer]

Originally Posted by The Dad Fisherman

Underage..I thought Interns are from College, hence 18 or over.

Boy and they say the Liberals make up Chit

Some of the interns in Congress are underage, from various high schools all over the country. Boy some of them liberals sure make up chit.

[Swimmer]

Originally Posted by EarnedStripes44

McCain has straight answers until that reporter in Maine asked him today 3 times about Sarry Palins foreign policy experience. He tried to talk about energy and laying pipe instead...

Palin living closer to Russia qualifies as foreign policy experience

[spence]

Originally Posted by buckman

Why would I be desperate? My guy's in the lead

Actually Obama is still ahead in the electoral college by most measures, and that's about all that matters. Obama has a lot of cash as well and could use this to his advantage to rebut GOP lies.

McCain will probably loose a few points as the Palin bubble starts to deflate, but it's way to close a race to say your guy is in the lead.

-spence

[Nebe]

Originally Posted by buckman

Your right it's a sad statement on the attitude of the left in this state. Thanks for bringing me to my senses.

Why would I be desperate? My guy's in the lead

correction. Your guy's VP is in the lead

[Backbeach Jake]

McCain has straight answers until that reporter in Maine asked him today 3 times about Sarry Palins foreign policy experience. He tried to talk about energy and laying pipe instead...

Thanks ES44, I just couldn't help myself...

[Joe]

Global warming, the value of diplomacy, the age of the earth, carbon dating, evolution, the big bang, the value of sex education...all

[Crafty Angler]

To get on point here, let's start with History.

Unfortunately, many Americans are woefully ignorant of history - not only their own but that of the world around them - and they are therefore doomed to repeat it, just as we are now beginning to do.

Regardless of who is elected, neither outcome can fill you with a great deal of optimism about the future. Simply put, I believe that if McCain is elected we'll end up in a military conflict that will be staggering in terms of loss and it is not going to be in the Middle East.

And sadly, if Obama is elected, I'm afraid we'll suffer a loss to our country of an entirely different kind that will be just as difficult for us as a nation to recover from.

Electing the McCain/Palin ticket will just be a continuation of the Bush doctrine.

To give the devil his due, I do have to admit that Bush and Cheney - or more accurately, Cheney and Bush - have made great use of that terrible attack on our own soil during the first term of their administration.

They initially used our justifiable outrage and anger over the attack to pursue a military objective - bringing OBL to justice - and then used the fear of a repeat attack, using Al Queda as the boogieman under the bed, to keep the country hypnotized and hysterical.

And while they played us like the suckers in an enormous game of 3 Card Monty, they shoveled obscene amounts of money to their friends at KBR and Halliburton - and assorted other shell companies based offshore - outsourcing troop support. These contractors were protected by a well-armed private army of mercenaries (Blackwater) who are not answerable to anyone but the Executive Office and are fully funded by our tax dollars. This is the redistribution of both wealth and power, indeed.

They also used the fear of a repeat of a 9-11 style event to justify the passage of bills like the Patriot Act that are violations of our Constitutional rights as Americans. They later used that same unreasonable fear to make unsubstantiated claims about WMD's and Al Queda's supposed links to Iraq to depose and execute a former U.S. ally after abandoning the real mission in Afganistan.

That so many Americans are so easily led is nothing less than frightening to me.

Economically speaking, the GOP's main objective has always been a reverse Robin Hood. Steal from the poor and give to the rich to redistribute the wealth in this country thus widening the gap between the wealthy and the working poor.

It is a throwback to Reagan's success in breaking the back of the air traffic controllers that has led us to where we stand today, "we" being those of us who are ass over teakettle busy working trying to make ends meet, raise children, put food on the table and keep our homes while many slide further into debt. BUsh's economic plan is really the fulfillment of the Reagan theory of trickle down economics - which essentially means if you feed a horse enough oats, sooner or later enough may come out the back end to feed the sparrows. Picking through detritus to survive is not an easy or pleasant chore.

Finally, it should come as a surprise to absolutely no one - IF you know your history - that the Republicans now abrogating our rights and determining how we are able to live our lives are quite literally the great- and great-great grandchildren of the robber barons of a century ago who amassed the previously unheard of wealth they are now building upon. And the working middle class again has the same burden to bear that their great grandparents fought so hard to overcome. He who ignores history is doomed to repeat it.

In terms of national security, we are at a watershed moment for our country with this election and perhaps we are witnessing the last days of the empire. I would hope it's not so but the policy of military colonization that spread England's military resources too thin toppled their empire just as it had for the Romans centuries earlier. Pick an empire, any of them if you know your history, and you'll see a pattern.

Our military resources are stretched paper thin right now and the mud has yet to hit the fan. The real threat to global security is rapidly regaining strength and we can't do a damned thing about it.

Russia has invaded Georgia, a sovereign state on their border and by Russia's own admission, has designs on Poland. Okay, class, what happened in Poland not all that many years ago? And what did it lead to?

Bush has voiced his objection to the invasion of Georgia and can't do a damned thing about it other than try to place weapons in Poland that are just going to enrage the bear. Stay tuned, the best is yet to come if your know your history and understand current geo-politics. That is the genuine threat today in the world. And that is the next global security issue our next President will face.

So, who do you want to deal with it?

You know what McCain's response will be. If he becomes ill or dies, do you want to leave that decision to someone like Palin?

That's your decision in November.

[RIJIMMY]

Crafty, I can't even begin to respond but appreciate the well thought out posting. Its intersting that the "real" genuine threat in the world is Russia. Just curious, when has Russia attacked the US, when have Russian soliders fought US soliders? Try.....never. Thats our biggest threat? Are you afraid communism is coming back? Yet, you dismiss the events of 9/11 as pur republican fear mongering? As you state, not learning from history is a major problem. I'm afraid the history books you're learning from were copyrighted in 1985.

[Nebe]

Jim When has Iraq attacked us? dah.....


Nice post crafty..

[spence]

Originally Posted by RIJIMMY

Crafty, I can't even begin to respond but appreciate the well thought out posting. Its intersting that the "real" genuine threat in the world is Russia. Just curious, when has Russia attacked the US, when have Russian soliders fought US soliders? Try.....never. Thats our biggest threat? Are you afraid communism is coming back? Yet, you dismiss the events of 9/11 as pur republican fear mongering? As you state, not learning from history is a major problem. I'm afraid the history books you're learning from were copyrighted in 1985.

I find it more than ironic that Conservatives are the first to cheerlead the Bush Doctrine as necessary in the post 9/11 world, when it's built on a radically liberal idiology.

The real threat to the American people, today, is the growing position of non-democratic states who are s#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&g the wealth of this country dry, and Russia is certianly among them.

Sometime in this century the %$%$%$%$ is going to hit the fan and we will simply lack the money and influence to do much about it.

-spence

[PaulS]

Originally Posted by spence

I
The real threat to the American people, today, is the growing position of non-democratic states who are s#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&g the wealth of this country dry, and Russia is certianly among them.

-spence

Do you mean Kansas, Kent, Tenn, SC, Wy, ND, SD, etc.?

[spence]

Originally Posted by PaulS

Do you mean Kansas, Kent, Tenn, SC, Wy, ND, SD, etc.?

Nation states

-spence

[PaulS]

OK, otherwise I was going to have to go back and throw Alaska in there.

[RIROCKHOUND]

[QUOTE=scottw;620372]

Originally Posted by RIROCKHOUND

I said the planet hasn't warmed since 1998, that's the baseline that the left uses to point to the begining of the end, there is some controversy over the "Hockeystick" but that might be too confusing for you...we have been cooler since 1998 despite an overall increase in CO2 since then, there are more than a few scientists that are now predicting an overall cooling of the planet, have you been outside??? Sunspot activity, or lack there of being one of the culprits for both the current cooling and the spike in 1998 but overall we're heading in the opposite direction from the alarmists claims which is why "climate change" is now replacing "global warming", that way they can get ya coming or going...are you sure your GPA was that high?

This really should be another thread, buthere we go..

More than a few scientists is not the consensus.
Show me the science. I don't have the time or desire to dig through boks and references in scientific journals and post it. You would just accuse the authors of being communists anyways

Sunspot was in vouge to argue against climate change a few years ago. Pretty well proven it does not account for the changes measured in recent (century scale) changes. Prior to anthropogenic CO2 forcing solar may have had a measurable impact, but that is overwhelmed by the present CO2 effects.

Climate change has always been the term I've preferred BECAUSE global warming is too simple, the earth does not 'have a fever' but it will cause significant changes in temperature, precipitation and other climatatic events. It is larger and much more complex than that.

The 'Hockey-stick' was refuted (by a mathematician who worked for an oil consulting firm) and then further supported by the original Author (Mann) and other studies.

Go to URI 23 Sept. Mike Mann will be talking all about climate change.
Ask him about the hockey-stick then.

http://climateprogress.org/wp-conten.../nasa-2007.jpg

Where is the trend of global cooling??

Show me the science Scott.

[RIJIMMY]

getting back to Crafty's post, I wish there was an independent organization to analysis on all the "conclusions" noted by Crafty and other voices of the Democratic party. Is anyone familiar with Six Sigma techniques? Its data bases analysis and can be used to determine cause and effect. Its used in analzing business and engineering processes. I would love to see it applied to all the "symptoms" of Bush's policies to really determine what the true source of the problem is. There are no independent voices when it comes to the current economic situation. I think an un-biased, data driven cause and effect analysis would shed a lot of light on our situtaiton. As Crafty and many others feel strongly about their opinions, I wonder how much is based on fact and not perception. personally, I doubt the impact of Bush's policies on our current situation. for example, Obama is blaming the Lehman and Merrill issue on Bush. I doubt anything Bush said or did had any influence whatsoever on any decisiosn made by the management of those two companies. We need independent analysis.

[sokinwet]

The Bush administration housing policy promoted "homeownership" over affordable rental housing. While on it's face it appears to be a noble aim "the american dream" of everyone owning a home, the fact is that most major housing organizations felt that this was impractical. Many people are not ready or able to afford the responsibilities of homeownership. Low downpmt. requirements, reduced underwriting standards, failure to monitor lending practices, pushing Fannie & Freddie to purchase all these "questionable" loans. These were all driven by the administrations housing policies. While nobody was making some of these "fools" refinance their houses multiple times, policy makers and regulators should have realized that the "housing bubble" would self correct eventually and cause this mortgage mess that is in fact the major factor in the failure of the investment banks. Lots of blame to pass around...uninformed borrowers, predatory lenders, $ blind investors and the administration that let it happen without 1 effort to reign in the problem before it was too late.l

[RIJIMMY]

Originally Posted by sokinwet

The Bush administration housing policy promoted "homeownership" over affordable rental housing. While on it's face it appears to be a noble aim "the american dream" of everyone owning a home, the fact is that most major housing organizations felt that this was impractical. Many people are not ready or able to afford the responsibilities of homeownership. Low downpmt. requirements, reduced underwriting standards, failure to monitor lending practices, pushing Fannie & Freddie to purchase all these "questionable" loans. These were all driven by the administrations housing policies. While nobody was making some of these "fools" refinance their houses multiple times, policy makers and regulators should have realized that the "housing bubble" would self correct eventually and cause this mortgage mess that is in fact the major factor in the failure of the investment banks. Lots of blame to pass around...uninformed borrowers, predatory lenders, $ blind investors and the administration that let it happen without 1 effort to reign in the problem before it was too late.l

But yet, many on this board were saying a few months ago that Bushs policy is what drive housing prices up and thus made it impossible for new homeowners to buy a house. So which is it? You cant have both.
BTW - if the administration tried to reign in the problem, it would have been to STOP loans to people less qualified for loans. Want to wager who that might be? You'd have the NAACP and La RAZA all over them. Next time you read " We're an equal opportunity lender". Think about what that means!

[RIJIMMY]

By comparing neighborhoods with similar median income levels in New York City, researchers discovered that homeowners in predominantly black or Hispanic neighborhoods were more likely than those in predominantly white neighborhoods to receive their mortgages from a subprime mortgage lender.

As many homeowners know, subprime mortgages are more difficult to maintain because of adjustable interest rates, and higher fees and penalties. Thus, they are more likely to lead to foreclosure. Additionally, credit card companies often target subprime borrowers because they often have poor credit histories that prevent them from qualifying for more desirable credit lines and interest rates.

[EarnedStripes44]

Originally Posted by PaulS

OK, otherwise I was going to have to go back and throw Alaska in there.

toss in Alabama too

[RIJIMMY]

Intersting, yup...all Bush's fault

The government-sponsored company is reworking its accounting back to 2001 in the wake of the scandal that forced out Mr. Raines and the former finance chief J. Timothy Howard, and brought a record $400 million fine in a settlement with regulators.
Mr. Howard and Mr. Raines, who was a White House budget director under President Bill Clinton, were among some 30 current and former Fannie Mae executives and directors under review for possible disciplinary action or termination.

[RIROCKHOUND]

I don't blame Bush, I blame greedy banks, lenders and borrowers!

[Joe]

There's no such thing as independent analysis. The scientific community and the academic worlds are not populated by conservatives so any analysis or facts they offer can be refuted as "liberal" views.

[RIROCKHOUND]

Originally Posted by Joe

There's no such thing as independent analysis. The scientific community and the academic worlds are not populated by conservatives so any analysis or facts they offer can be refuted as "liberal" views.

Stop stirring %$%$%$%$

I know a lot of conservative scientists.
Hell,
I know a young earth creationist who is a paleontologist...
figure that one out....

People need to push climate change PAST politics.
It is a bigger, separate issues.

[spence]

Originally Posted by RIROCKHOUND

People need to push climate change PAST politics.
It is a bigger, separate issues.

Well, I guess that's exactly the problem. This entire debate is a political one, when it should be a scientific one.

The irony of it all, is that Conservatives typically see the climate debate as an inhibitor of business growth, while those on the Left (and us smarter than you Independents) see the response to climate change as a vehicle for business growth via new Energy Technologies.

But Conservatives have been in charge the past 8 years and have effectively killed the debate. Yes, Gore should have pushed for more when VP, but the country was fat dumb and happy and China wasn't consuming nearly as much coal and oil as they do today.

If this nation doesn't wake up and embrace energy tech as the next revolution...your children are not going to enjoy the same quality of life we have today. And the denials from the Right will be largely to blame.

-spence

[spence]

Originally Posted by RIJIMMY

Is anyone familiar with Six Sigma techniques? Its data bases analysis and can be used to determine cause and effect. Its used in analzing business and engineering processes. I would love to see it applied to all the "symptoms" of Bush's policies to really determine what the true source of the problem is.

The problem is, there's been no variation in Bush Policy. Incompetence, dishonesty, cronyisim, etc... have all been pretty consistent thoughout both terms

More interesting would be to use QFD to choose the next President!

-spence

[Joe]

Originally Posted by RIROCKHOUND

I know a lot of conservative scientists.

Oil company geologists don't count - neither do tobacco addiction tweakers. A stirring aside, I have a great deal of respect for scientists and academics.
You, know, there was a time when people were recruited from the academic community to work with the government to solve problems - when thier opinions held weight. There's this notion now that if you don't work in traditional business, or you don't come from the military, you really did not work for a living.
What separated this country from others - what made us great, was that in the 19th century, while european nations were investing in social welfare programs, the US was investing in education. Education brought about upward mobility and the rise of a middleclass.

[sokinwet]

"But yet, many on this board were saying a few months ago that Bushs policy is what drive housing prices up and thus made it impossible for new homeowners to buy a house. So which is it? You cant have both"
Jim - You need to read and understand the post before you respond. Housing prices are indeed driven "up" by easing credit standards....a simple function of the market that even a layman should understand. Fannie/Freddie and the entire secondary market are major factors in todays crisis. Purchase of risky mortgages by these institutions and investment banks is the reason were all in this mess today...and their policies have been driven by big money, hedge funds, unregulated investment firms....who until now have been making a killing....and who has been the champion of this hand off approach? I'll let you figure that out. Regarding your NY comment...yes..."lower income" neighborhoods are the hardest hit because of their inability to qualify by traditional morthgage standards. The fact that foreclosures are now striking hard at middle class America shows the extent of this problem. I won't even comment on your "veiled" racist comments.

[spence]

Originally Posted by Joe

Oil company geologists don't count - neither do tobacco addiction tweakers. A stirring aside, I have a great deal of respect for scientists and academics.

Figures you pink panty wearing liberal pussy.

Acedemics simply are the product of Liberal universities, they all have an agenda, and it's not to do God's work.

But the scientists who work for big business are another breed entirely. They get paid a hell of a lot of money. Logic would dictate that only the best and brightest would see such compensation.

And you DARE question their findings?

By that measure alone I have much more faith in the guy from those Exxon commercials working to save the world, than I would from a Rev. Wright humping libber like RIROCKHOUND.

-spence