Debate number two

[spence]

Here's a list of the books he's authored...There's some really radical stuff here we should all be afraid of

Education: An American Problem. Bill Ayers, Radical Education Project, 1968, ASIN B0007H31HU

Hot town: Summer in the City: I ain't gonna work on Maggie's farm no more, Bill Ayers, Students for a Democratic Society, 1969, ASIN B0007I3CMI

Good Preschool Teachers, William Ayers, Teachers College Press, 1989, ISBN 978-0807729472

The Good Preschool Teacher: Six Teachers Reflect on Their Lives,

William Ayers, Teachers College Press, 1989, ISBN 978-0807729465
To Teach: The Journey of a Teacher, William Ayers, Teachers College Press, 1993, ISBN 978-0807732625*

To Become a Teacher: Making a Difference in Children's Lives, William Ayers, Teachers College Press, 1995, ISBN 978-0807734551

City Kids, City Teachers: Reports from the Front Row, William Ayers (Editor) and Patricia Ford (Editor), New Press, 1996, ISBN 978-1565843288

A Kind and Just Parent, William Ayers, Beacon Press, 1997, ISBN 978-0807044025

A Light in Dark Times: Maxine Greene and the Unfinished Conversation, Maxine Greene (Editor), William Ayers (Editor), Janet

L. Miller (Editor), Teachers College Press, 1998, ISBN 978-0807737217

Teaching for Social Justice: A Democracy and Education Reader, William Ayers (Editor), Jean Ann Hunt (Editor), Therese Quinn (Editor), 1998, ISBN 978-1565844209

Teacher Lore: Learning from Our Own Experience, William H. Schubert (Editor) and William C. Ayers (Editor), Educator's International Press, 1999, ISBN 978-1891928031

Teaching from the Inside Out: The Eight-Fold Path to Creative Teaching and Living, Sue Sommers (Author), William Ayers (Foreword), Authority Press, 2000, ISBN 978-1929059027

A Simple Justice: The Challenge of Small Schools, William Ayers, Teachers College Press, 2000, ISBN 978-0807739631

Zero Tolerance: Resisting the Drive for Punishment, William Ayers (Editor), Rick Ayers (Editor), Bernardine Dohrn (Editor), Jesse L.

Jackson (Author), New Press, 2001, ISBN 978-1565846661

A School of Our Own: Parents, Power, and Community at the East

Harlem Block Schools, Tom Roderick (Author), William Ayers (Author), Teachers College Press, 2001, ISBN 978-0807741573

Refusing Racism: White Allies and the Struggle for Civil Rights, Cynthia Stokes Brown (Author), William Ayers (Editor), Therese Quinn (Editor), Teachers College Press, 2002, ISBN 978-0807742044

On the Side of the Child: Summerhill Revisited, William Ayers, Teachers College Press, 2003, ISBN 978-0807744000

Fugitive Days: A Memoir, Bill Ayers, Beacon Press, 2001, ISBN 0807071242 (Penguin, 2003, ISBN 978-0142002551)

Teaching the Personal and the Political: Essays on Hope and Justice, William Ayers, Teachers College Press, 2004, ISBN 978-0807744611

Teaching Toward Freedom: Moral Commitment and Ethical Action in the Classroom, William Ayers, Beacon Press, 2004, ISBN 978-080703269-5

Sing a Battle Song: The Revolutionary Poetry, Statements, and Communiques of the Weather Underground 1970-1974, Bernardine Dohrn, Bill Ayers, and Jeff Jones, Seven Stories Press, 2006, ISBN 978-1583227268

Handbook of Social Justice in Education, William C. Ayers, Routledge, June 2008, ISBN 978-0805859270

City Kids, City Schools: More Reports from the Front Row, Ruby Dee (Foreword), Jeff Chang (Afterword), William Ayers (Editor), Billings,
Gloria Ladson (Editor), Gregory Michie (Editor), Pedro Noguera (Editor), New Press, August 2008, ISBN 978-1595583383

[fishsmith]

Originally Posted by justplugit

I think it's worth looking into.

I wouldn't want a bunch of abandoned homes on my street, but WTF, 2 1/2 x your salary = house you can afford. Why did this go away?

chit, I had to buy on a main road because I couldn't swing the cost of a nieghborhood

Fook it, I'm way off topic now, might have to go the church of the 'Grumpy Old Farts' forum.

Taking a step back, Me and my family have our health, so when push comes to shove, we've got all we need.

Time to go fishing.

[RIJIMMY]

Originally Posted by spence

Yes, he's currently a "Distinguished Professor" at the University of Chicago and seen as an expert on many social issues. Sounds pretty mainstream to me.

-spence

there is also a collection of professors at major universities who believe Bush and Cheney planned 9/11. I heard them on a talk show a few years ago. They are actively teaching today. So Spence, using employment at a university as a qualification for mainstream doesnt fly with me.

[justplugit]

Originally Posted by spence

Here's a list of the books he's authored...There's some really radical stuff here we should all be afraid of

Education: An American Problem. Bill Ayers, Radical Education Project, 1968, ASIN B0007H31HU

Hot town: Summer in the City: I ain't gonna work on Maggie's farm no more, Bill Ayers, Students for a Democratic Society, 1969, ASIN B0007I3CMI

Good Preschool Teachers, William Ayers, Teachers College Press, 1989, ISBN 978-0807729472

The Good Preschool Teacher: Six Teachers Reflect on Their Lives,

William Ayers, Teachers College Press, 1989, ISBN 978-0807729465
To Teach: The Journey of a Teacher, William Ayers, Teachers College Press, 1993, ISBN 978-0807732625*

To Become a Teacher: Making a Difference in Children's Lives, William Ayers, Teachers College Press, 1995, ISBN 978-0807734551

City Kids, City Teachers: Reports from the Front Row, William Ayers (Editor) and Patricia Ford (Editor), New Press, 1996, ISBN 978-1565843288

A Kind and Just Parent, William Ayers, Beacon Press, 1997, ISBN 978-0807044025

A Light in Dark Times: Maxine Greene and the Unfinished Conversation, Maxine Greene (Editor), William Ayers (Editor), Janet

L. Miller (Editor), Teachers College Press, 1998, ISBN 978-0807737217

Teaching for Social Justice: A Democracy and Education Reader, William Ayers (Editor), Jean Ann Hunt (Editor), Therese Quinn (Editor), 1998, ISBN 978-1565844209

Teacher Lore: Learning from Our Own Experience, William H. Schubert (Editor) and William C. Ayers (Editor), Educator's International Press, 1999, ISBN 978-1891928031

Teaching from the Inside Out: The Eight-Fold Path to Creative Teaching and Living, Sue Sommers (Author), William Ayers (Foreword), Authority Press, 2000, ISBN 978-1929059027

A Simple Justice: The Challenge of Small Schools, William Ayers, Teachers College Press, 2000, ISBN 978-0807739631

Zero Tolerance: Resisting the Drive for Punishment, William Ayers (Editor), Rick Ayers (Editor), Bernardine Dohrn (Editor), Jesse L.

Jackson (Author), New Press, 2001, ISBN 978-1565846661

A School of Our Own: Parents, Power, and Community at the East

Harlem Block Schools, Tom Roderick (Author), William Ayers (Author), Teachers College Press, 2001, ISBN 978-0807741573

Refusing Racism: White Allies and the Struggle for Civil Rights, Cynthia Stokes Brown (Author), William Ayers (Editor), Therese Quinn (Editor), Teachers College Press, 2002, ISBN 978-0807742044

On the Side of the Child: Summerhill Revisited, William Ayers, Teachers College Press, 2003, ISBN 978-0807744000

Fugitive Days: A Memoir, Bill Ayers, Beacon Press, 2001, ISBN 0807071242 (Penguin, 2003, ISBN 978-0142002551)

Teaching the Personal and the Political: Essays on Hope and Justice, William Ayers, Teachers College Press, 2004, ISBN 978-0807744611

Teaching Toward Freedom: Moral Commitment and Ethical Action in the Classroom, William Ayers, Beacon Press, 2004, ISBN 978-080703269-5

Sing a Battle Song: The Revolutionary Poetry, Statements, and Communiques of the Weather Underground 1970-1974, Bernardine Dohrn, Bill Ayers, and Jeff Jones, Seven Stories Press, 2006, ISBN 978-1583227268

Handbook of Social Justice in Education, William C. Ayers, Routledge, June 2008, ISBN 978-0805859270

City Kids, City Schools: More Reports from the Front Row, Ruby Dee (Foreword), Jeff Chang (Afterword), William Ayers (Editor), Billings,
Gloria Ladson (Editor), Gregory Michie (Editor), Pedro Noguera (Editor), New Press, August 2008, ISBN 978-1595583383

Who knows what's in those books?
I'd have to read them all for myself before calling him a mainstream educational professsor.

They, like any books ,could of been written by an author who believes, "if you can't convice them with facts, smother them with

[spence]

Originally Posted by RIJIMMY

there is also a collection of professors at major universities who believe Bush and Cheney planned 9/11. I heard them on a talk show a few years ago. They are actively teaching today. So Spence, using employment at a university as a qualification for mainstream doesnt fly with me.

If you read my post you'd know that that wasn't the single basis for my assertion. Nice try...

And Justplugit, it's not about smothering with BS. Rather the product of his work is a good indication as to his state of mind. I see a person focused on teaching and social issues, not a rabbid terrorist.

-spence

[Nebe]

People change. People learn. People evolve.

All things that McCain followers struggle with.

[striperman36]

Originally Posted by Nebe

People change. People learn. People evolve.

All things that McCain followers struggle with.

What has McCain evolved into, other than a beltway has been.

[RIJIMMY]

Boston Police Commissioner Ed Davis calls Barack Obama’s connection to William Ayers, an unrepentant terrorist who was part of the Weather Underground — an anti-war group that planted bombs and killed cops — “troubling.” I say it is outrageous.

The Weather Underground did damage right here in Boston. On Sept. 23, 1970, BPD Officer Walter Schroeder was gunned down outside a Brighton bank that had just been robbed by five members of the Weather Underground. One of the terrorists opened fire on the cop. With bullets from a machine gun the group ripped off from a National Guard armory in Newburyport just weeks earlier, Schroeder was shot in the back and killed.

Schroeder left behind a wife and nine children, aged 17, 15, 13, 10, 9, 7, 6, 2 and 11 months. The gunman, William “Lefty” Gilday, was captured along with three accomplices. The armed getaway driver, Katherine Powers, fled and remained on the lam for 23 years. When she was finally caught, Powers was treated with the same despicable reverence that Obama’s friend Ayers has been given by the media. Like Ayers, Powers was profiled as a hapless revolutionary caught up in the tumult of the Vietnam War rather than what she truly is: a cop-killing lowlife.

That fact was not lost on Schroeder’s daughter, Clare, who delivered a powerful victim impact statement at Powers’ sentencing in 1993. “Powers’ crimes, her flight from justice and her decision to turn herself in have been romanticized utterly beyond belief,” Schroeder said. “My father’s life was cut short for no reason, shot in the back with a bullet of a coward while Ms. Powers waited to drive that coward to safety.” The Weather Underground was also involved in a Brinks robbery in Nyack, N.Y., that left two cops and a Brinks security guard dead. Those murders also left nine children fatherless.

So for Obama to think it is OK to launch his political career in the living room of two Weather Underground members, Ayers and his wife Bernadine Dohrn — the couple, like Powers, went underground as fugitives after a bomb-making factory blew up on a residential Manhattan block, killing three people — and then explain the association away by saying, “I was 8,” is outrageous. People need to wake up and realize that Obama’s anti-American pals, the Rev. Jeremiah Wright and William Ayers, are not just “troubling.” The associations are frightening.

[The Dad Fisherman]

Guilt by Association
By David Knowles
Oct 7th 2008 9:27AM

In philosophical parlance, it is known as the "Bad Company Fallacy." Guilt-by-association posits that if you befriend someone who has questionable beliefs, then, by definition, you too have questionable beliefs.

This "company you keep" critique has been a running theme in this year's race for the White House, and it exploded this week when Sarah Palin and John McCain decided to try refocus Barack Obama's associations with William Ayers and Jeremiah Wright into a central theme of their campaign.

Obama has fired back with McCain's involvement in the Keating 5 scandal, and, in terms of questionable religious affiliations, we watched the rise and fall of one-time spiritual adviser John Hagee.

McCain was forced to denounce Hagee, and Obama was forced to exit Trinity. McCain has called his role in the Savings and Loan scandal his ethical "asterisk," Obama has repudiated the Weathermen. Obama has called his housing deal with Tony Rezko a "bone headed" move. And McCain has been desperately trying to distance himself from President Bush. And so it goes.

On the Veep front, we've seen the video of warding off witches at Sarah Palin's Pentecostal church, and learned of Todd Palin's affiliation with the secessionist Alaska Independence Party. Joe Biden's son, we now know, was a lobbyist.Further on down the list, we have the people who work for the respective campaigns. Rick Davis, McCain's campaign manager, runs a lobbying firm that did well by Fannie and Freddie over the past few years. Obama briefly had a guy who was on his VP search committee who was Fannie Mae's chief executive.

As we tread through this thicket of sticky burs, it's hard not to notice that amid all the one-upmanship there's a whole lot of "do as I say, not as I do" going on with these people. The double standards are so prevalent that each campaign seems more intent on screaming "He did it, too!" rather than examining its own motives. They compile lists of the other guy's wrongs, as if whoever has the biggest number of questionable affiliations at the end of the day will automatically be declared the loser.

Well, I would suggest to you that guilt by association is not a good metric for picking a president. Instead, let's try to focus on voting records and policy proposals. I know that's a whole lot less splashy, in a tabloid sense of the word, than concocting a scandal du jour. It may not get the blood boiling like all the imagined conversations between our candidates and their tainted associates. But maybe, just maybe, it's a more sensible way to go.

[spence]

So now "bank robber" = "terrorist"? You're really out there on this one.

Granted I wasn't old enough to see it first hand, but the Vietnam war certianly did seem to bring out the worst in a lot of people. Doesn't mean you aren't responsible for your actions, but it sounds like eventually people were.

Reminds me of the story some years ago about some relious wacko's burning rock music. The pastor holds up a copy of "Demons and Wizards" (Uriah Heep baby) as an example of how evil it is.

If he bothered to actually listen to the song, he'd know it was about a demon who met a wizard in the woods who turned him to do good for the world.

Old LP's have a very low melting point.

-spence

[EarnedStripes44]

Pop, that was good piece on guilt by association.

[RIJIMMY]

Originally Posted by spence

So now "bank robber" = "terrorist"? You're really out there on this one.

Granted I wasn't old enough to see it first hand, but the Vietnam war certianly did seem to bring out the worst in a lot of people. Doesn't mean you aren't responsible for your actions, but it sounds like eventually people were.

Reminds me of the story some years ago about some relious wacko's burning rock music. The pastor holds up a copy of "Demons and Wizards" (Uriah Heep baby) as an example of how evil it is.

If he bothered to actually listen to the song, he'd know it was about a demon who met a wizard in the woods who turned him to do good for the world.

Old LP's have a very low melting point.

-spence

where did I call anyone a terrorist????

[spence]

Originally Posted by RIJIMMY

On Sept. 23, 1970, BPD Officer Walter Schroeder was gunned down outside a Brighton bank that had just been robbed by five members of the Weather Underground. One of the terrorists opened fire on the cop.

In the post you quoted.

-spence

[Nebe]

just so we are all on the same page here. Dont think that terrorist means a radical muslim who is fighting for the rights of his fellow man.

All of these laws that have been put into place to make it easy to spy on terrorists can be used on you and me. terrorist is a very loose term. For example if I started handing out flyers and started rallying people to obstruct the powers of this country, I would be a terrorist. So my friends... as McCain loves to say.. there is no way out of the %$%$%$%$fest that this country may be in in say 5 or 10 years.. any form of revolution will be called a terrorist uprising.

just wait. A total economic colapse will certianly create tons of 'terrorists'

1984 anyone?

[gone fishin]

Originally Posted by The Dad Fisherman

Guilt by Association
By David Knowles
Oct 7th 2008 9:27AM

In philosophical parlance, it is known as the "Bad Company Fallacy." Guilt-by-association posits that if you befriend someone who has questionable beliefs, then, by definition, you too have questionable beliefs.

This "company you keep" critique has been a running theme in this year's race for the White House, and it exploded this week when Sarah Palin and John McCain decided to try refocus Barack Obama's associations with William Ayers and Jeremiah Wright into a central theme of their campaign.

Obama has fired back with McCain's involvement in the Keating 5 scandal, and, in terms of questionable religious affiliations, we watched the rise and fall of one-time spiritual adviser John Hagee.

McCain was forced to denounce Hagee, and Obama was forced to exit Trinity. McCain has called his role in the Savings and Loan scandal his ethical "asterisk," Obama has repudiated the Weathermen. Obama has called his housing deal with Tony Rezko a "bone headed" move. And McCain has been desperately trying to distance himself from President Bush. And so it goes.

On the Veep front, we've seen the video of warding off witches at Sarah Palin's Pentecostal church, and learned of Todd Palin's affiliation with the secessionist Alaska Independence Party. Joe Biden's son, we now know, was a lobbyist.Further on down the list, we have the people who work for the respective campaigns. Rick Davis, McCain's campaign manager, runs a lobbying firm that did well by Fannie and Freddie over the past few years. Obama briefly had a guy who was on his VP search committee who was Fannie Mae's chief executive.

As we tread through this thicket of sticky burs, it's hard not to notice that amid all the one-upmanship there's a whole lot of "do as I say, not as I do" going on with these people. The double standards are so prevalent that each campaign seems more intent on screaming "He did it, too!" rather than examining its own motives. They compile lists of the other guy's wrongs, as if whoever has the biggest number of questionable affiliations at the end of the day will automatically be declared the loser.

Well, I would suggest to you that guilt by association is not a good metric for picking a president. Instead, let's try to focus on voting records and policy proposals. I know that's a whole lot less splashy, in a tabloid sense of the word, than concocting a scandal du jour. It may not get the blood boiling like all the imagined conversations between our candidates and their tainted associates. But maybe, just maybe, it's a more sensible way to go.

Well written - thanks for posting this Kevin.

[justplugit]

Originally Posted by spence

And Justplugit, it's not about smothering with BS. Rather the product of his work is a good indication as to his state of mind. I see a person focused on teaching and social issues, not a rabbid terrorist.

-spence

Sorry Spence, looked like i missed out on some good dicussions by goin fishin.

I would have to read his books or attend one of his courses to find out WHAT he is teaching to come to a conclusion as to his state of mind.

[RIJIMMY]

might not agree or like it, but this is a damn effective political ad

[mekcotuit]

McCain has a link to William Ayers also:

"This morning John McCain put out a list of 100 former ambassadors who are supporting his campaign. Number two is Leonore Annenberg, the wife of Ambassador William Annenberg, the founder of the Annenberg Institute of Reform, which funded the Annenberg Challenge, which once had two famous board members: former "domestic terrorist" William Ayers and Sen. Barack Obama.

So either we should all be outraged that John McCain is supported by a family who funded a foundation that hired a domestic terrorist, or this whole William Ayers thing is just plain silly. I choose the latter.

The Annenbergs, if you don't know, are a famous American publishing family, very Republican going back generations. They got their start in newspapers in the days when big cities had a dozen or 15 competing dailies and papers literally hired thugs to rough up and occasionally kill corner newsboys so as to claim space on more profitable street corners."