Movie 13 Hours will re-open Benghazi discussion

[spence]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

We had an unarmed, predator drone over the annex during much of the 12 hour fight, sending real-time video to the white house. Plus we had radio contact with multiple people on the scene. If that's not sufficient eyes on the ground to send in aircraft, then I can't fathom an active-battle scenario that is, I just can't.

The drone was already in the area performing surveillance.

Has anyone ever itemized exactly what assets were within a 12 hour flight time of Benghazi? That I'd like to see. It has to be a long list, because that's a huge radius.

The 2014 House investigation did look into this and found no assets that could have helped. It's not just flight time, for instance the F-16's in Aviano that JohnR mentioned were configured for training and not combat. There were no C130's nearby.

There are also logistical considerations like tankers to refuel, AWACS, search and rescue etc...

I just think it's pretty absurd that in this whole Clinton hate fest people would discount we had a lot of very smart and dedicated American's trying like hell to sort this out.

[scottw]

Originally Posted by spence

I just think it's pretty absurd that in this whole Clinton hate fest people would discount we had Bob trying like hell to sort this out.

fixed it

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by spence

The drone was already in the area performing surveillance.


The 2014 House investigation did look into this and found no assets that could have helped. It's not just flight time, for instance the F-16's in Aviano that JohnR mentioned were configured for training and not combat. There were no C130's nearby.

There are also logistical considerations like tankers to refuel, AWACS, search and rescue etc...

I just think it's pretty absurd that in this whole Clinton hate fest people would discount we had a lot of very smart and dedicated American's trying like hell to sort this out.

"The drone was already in the area performing surveillance."

according to the book, a drone showed up ove rth ebattle, after the former SEALs asked for it. We have sent assets to the rescue with less than that.

"The 2014 House investigation did look into this and found no assets that could have helped"

Which means what, exactly? If there were 8 guys that could have been flown in (like Glen Doherty did), that could have made ALL the difference.

"pretty absurd that in this whole Clinton hate fest "

When she keeps flip-flopping about the video, she deserves an avalance of criticism.


If there were no assets within a 12-hour flight time, that generates a new line of very fair criticism...why the hell wasn't there anything within a 12 hour flight radius of a well-known hotspot? Has anyone asked that? Whose job is it, to make sure that we don't send people into harm's way with no possible means of support, and why hasn't that person been publicly fired for this?

A 12 hour flight time represents a huge chunk of the planet. If ther ewa snothing in that radius to help these people, that's almost as bad as if there were assets that were never sent.

I can't fathom the reluctance to be outraged. That has zip to do with politics.

And again, her behavior in the aftermath, was revolting.

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

"The drone was already in the area performing surveillance."

according to the book, a drone showed up ove rth ebattle, after the former SEALs asked for it. We have sent assets to the rescue with less than that.

"The 2014 House investigation did look into this and found no assets that could have helped"

Which means what, exactly? If there were 8 guys that could have been flown in (like Glen Doherty did), that could have made ALL the difference.

"pretty absurd that in this whole Clinton hate fest "

When she keeps flip-flopping about the video, she deserves an avalance of criticism.


If there were no assets within a 12-hour flight time, that generates a new line of very fair criticism...why the hell wasn't there anything within a 12 hour flight radius of a well-known hotspot? Has anyone asked that? Whose job is it, to make sure that we don't send people into harm's way with no possible means of support, and why hasn't that person been publicly fired for this?

A 12 hour flight time represents a huge chunk of the planet. If ther ewa snothing in that radius to help these people, that's almost as bad as if there were assets that were never sent.

I can't fathom the reluctance to be outraged. That has zip to do with politics.

And again, her behavior in the aftermath, was revolting.

Jim, you're not going to get answers to your questions because Spence, and others, are answering different questions. They continue to point out that a bunch of "investigations" claimed that it was not strategically possible to get help to Benghazi in time.

We are told to get over it, that it has been covered over and over, that it just wasn't possible to get help there. Spence, and others, are not interested in the possibility that help could have gotten there in time, as did Doherty as you point out, or as the guys in the movie did, even though they didn't leave to help as soon as they could have or as they would have liked because some superior told them not to go.

Such arguments are of no interest to Spence, and others. The bunch of "investigations" supposedly tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help them Big Bang.

Also of no interest to Spence, and others, is the question of, ultimately, why (as you ask over and over and get no answer) were there no resources available for a situation like Benghazi. Spence, and others, are not interested in that question. They are only focused like a laser on the bunch of "investigations" which say that the resources were not available.

Or, I should say, they are focused on THAT PART of the bunch of "investigations" which say that resources were not available. But, strangely, the bunch of investigations did reveal a great deal of incompetence in all facets of the Benghazi situation. And much of the answer to your questions is revealed in that part of the bunch of "investigations." But the answer to your questions, as revealed by that part of the bunch of "investigations," could be, if explored too closely, very embarrassing to the beloved Hillary.

And so there is this myopic insistence on the end conditions, not the preliminary planning. Even though it was the preliminary planning which set in unanswerable stone the "fact" that no resources were available.

Of course, that part of the bunch of investigations is easily dismissed as some impersonal "systemic" failure. Actual names and people are not identified, and, somehow, the beloved Hillary is not involved in the system snafu. Ambassador Stephens is an exception to the anonymity as he is heavily implicated in the systemic snafu. As wdmso points out, "He repeatedly asked for more security . . . but again he felt it was safe to be in Benghazi He's the Boss" By this assertion, it is clear that the Ambassador suffered from a sort of schizophrenia. He repeatedly asked for more security even though he felt it was safe.

Now, the beloved Hillary, had ultimate trust in this schizoid person, and gave him the Ambassadorship not because she is a poor judge of such things . . . after all, she was secstate and is about to be POTUS. Her obvious, apparent, and well documented accomplishments qualify her for the high and highest callings in our nation. After all, she WAS the wife of the most popular President in the past half century. And she IS a woman. Her impeccable qualifications would argue against her being a poor judge of such things. And there was no reason whatsoever for her not to sign off on his idea of a low, actually nonexistent, profile of American power stationed in his compound. (Maybe not even having resources available to get there in time.) There is absolutely no doubt that she knew how dangerous the situation was in Libya. But she just knew that it was a good plan. It would show the Libyan people that we trusted them and that they should trust us. It was, actually, a brilliant plan. It came from the highest ideals in human nature. It was that kind of motherly, nurturing love that only women are capable of.

That she didn't consider that there were these brutish men roaming about with the basest, most cruel, instincts, should not be an indication of poor judgment. Or maybe she actually did consider it, but the good people of Libya, after all, would protect our people because we showed them our trust and love. And we must understand that it was systemic failure, not her judgment, that led to the death of our people.

And we must be pointed to folks under Hillary within the "system" as being the source of systemic failure. After all, as wdmso points out, Stephens was "the Boss."

Well, actually, Hillary was the Boss.

[JohnR]

Spangdahlem in Germany has a squadron of F16C/Ds - 1500 miles away

Aviano in Italy has 2 squadrons of F16C/Ds - 850 miles away
Both of those locations, if they had anything approaching alert, might have A2A loaded and not A2G

Lakenheath UK - has 2 squadrons of F15E Strike Eagles which are probably the ideal kit in central/western Europe for something like this. (2 F15Es made the round trip from Lakenheath in June 2015 to early retire some bad guys in Libya so yes it can be done)

Pro: with the right loadups they could have been effective (or really overkill) and the guys on the ground did have laser designation devices.

Ideal would have been an AC130 or even Reaper UAVs with Hellfire (better for small targets) but a Reaper would have been at extreme range limits with little to no loiter time if out of Sigonella. Just doesn't have the legs. There have been discussions on whether or not AC130s were in Italy or not.

Onsite was (reportedly) an RQ4 Global Hawk which I do not believe can be armed. So I believe reports of an armed drone onsite are false.

Other US assets in range:

Navy - nothing really in range, nearest CSG was 3,000 miles away.

Air Force has B1Bs in Qatar and looks like some AC130 (GoogleMaps that date window) but they would not have the speed to get on station for hours (The B1s could). Might have something at Al Dahra, UAE (F15Es).

Nothing is available without heavy tanking support.

Interestingly, SOEUR with US ARMY SOF and Navy Seal units are stationed at Panzer Kaserne (worked there when well wet behind the ears) which is just down the street from Patch Barracks EUCOM and Kelly Barracks HQ AFRICOM - both which would have been heavily interested and listening into what was going on in Benghazi. And they would want to get down there quick but would not have been down in time.

[wdmso]

Seems many suffer a lack of Perspective of the big picture and just ingnore certain explanations unless they follow the rights narrative of how it all went down no matter all the investigations that fail to support their version?
Avano air base f16 are tasked with supporting. Afgan mission. They are not pre staged to cover Libya as they were when we conducted mission over Libya
Here is a real world example
In Iraq I called in 9nine medivac after an ied strike on my convoy we had to use a mtc which was text message because our radios could not reach our base at : alasad which was 2 hrs away . from the time the ied blew up the truck secured the area treated the guy i called the medicvac and it landed with cobra escort 2.5hrs later . from an air base with mediavac on station..in an active combat zone . perspective.
We all wish the outcome would have been different. Clearly it could have been worse
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[scottw]

Originally Posted by wdmso

Seems many suffer a lack of Perspective of the big picture and just ingnore certain explanations unless they follow the rights narrative

Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

you mean like the people that blamed a movie

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by wdmso

Seems many suffer a lack of Perspective of the big picture and just ingnore certain explanations unless they follow the rights narrative of how it all went down no matter all the investigations that fail to support their version?

If the 12 hour attack is what is meant when alluding to "how it all went down", isn't that only a part of the picture, the effect, the final part? Wouldn't the "big picture" include all the causes which led to the final effect? Wasn't the poor planning, the inadequate security, the misperception of al Qaeda and its affiliates being defeated and on the run, the overall poor judgment in how the consulate was established part of the "big picture"? And didn't "all the investigations" support that version of the "big picture"?

Avano air base f16 are tasked with supporting. Afgan mission. They are not pre staged to cover Libya as they were when we conducted mission over Libya

Is it part of the failure in the big picture that there was no help within a reasonable time/distance to cover an attack on the consulate?

Here is a real world example
In Iraq I called in 9nine medivac after an ied strike on my convoy we had to use a mtc which was text message because our radios could not reach our base at : alasad which was 2 hrs away . from the time the ied blew up the truck secured the area treated the guy i called the medicvac and it landed with cobra escort 2.5hrs later . from an air base with mediavac on station..in an active combat zone . perspective.
We all wish the outcome would have been different. Clearly it could have been worse

I couldn't clearly follow your description of the real world example, but it seems that it is an example of having options for help in an emergency. If options for help at Benghazi were available, rather than it could have been worse, couldn't it have been better?

Of course, the narrative of the "left" only focuses on the effect, that there was no way that help could have arrived in time. So that's that. That's the only picture that counts. That's as big as the picture needs to be. Shut up and get over it.

[scottw]

Originally Posted by detbuch

Wasn't the poor planning, the inadequate security, the misperception of al Qaeda and its affiliates being defeated and on the run, the overall poor judgment in how the consulate was established part of the "big picture"? And didn't "all the investigations" support that version of the "big picture"?

bingo....and of course the lies that followed that were political in nature....followed by the condescension of collectivist narcissism aimed at anyone asking obvious questions

what does it matter?...shut up and get over it!

[JohnR]

Originally Posted by wdmso

Seems many suffer a lack of Perspective of the big picture and just ingnore certain explanations unless they follow the rights narrative of how it all went down no matter all the investigations that fail to support their version?
Avano air base f16 are tasked with supporting. Afgan mission. They are not pre staged to cover Libya as they were when we conducted mission over Libya

F16s are periodically at Bagram over the past 13 years and they came from Hill, Shaw, and 10 other mostly CONUS bases, yes, including the 2 squadrons from Aviano. So you know what unit was providing cover out of Bagram in September 2012? F16s from Aviano? Or A10s and F15Es from all over the world?

F16s were at Aviano.

Originally Posted by wdmso

Here is a real world example
In Iraq I called in 9nine medivac after an ied strike on my convoy we had to use a mtc which was text message because our radios could not reach our base at : alasad which was 2 hrs away . from the time the ied blew up the truck secured the area treated the guy i called the medicvac and it landed with cobra escort 2.5hrs later . from an air base with mediavac on station..in an active combat zone . perspective.
We all wish the outcome would have been different. Clearly it could have been worse
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

Yes, perspective, and a different animal. Medevac with Marine escorts from Al Asad are a different animal than Strike or CAS from air force fighter/bomber/attack. Just saying. To be clear, I am just saying what was available in the possible area. From semi available to barely available.

Originally Posted by scottw

bingo....and of course the lies that followed that were political in nature....followed by the condescension of collectivist narcissism aimed at anyone asking obvious questions

what does it matter?...shut up and get over it!

That is part of the problem. For a country that had been at war for 10 years at that point it was not acting like a country at war. Politics and Lawfare getting in the way of and not doing the best to support the people - like WDMSO - in the field. This is an institutional problem that is not just under Obama's watch, happened under Bush as well. Though it can be argued it has gone from bad to worse under Obama.

[wdmso]

Again just saying if it took me 3 hrs to get a medvac from a base 2 hour drive and 30 min flight.time In an active combat zone Not sure why some find 12 hrs to respond someplace not in an active combat zone. With cia assets on the ground which I am sure only a few higher officers even knew they were there .. With 2 spontaneous attacks
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[spence]

Originally Posted by wdmso

Again just saying if it took me 3 hrs to get a medvac from a base 2 hour drive and 30 min flight.time In an active combat zone Not sure why some find 12 hrs to respond someplace not in an active combat zone. With cia assets on the ground which I am sure only a few higher officers even knew they were there .. With 2 spontaneous attacks
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

I believe it was in the House Armed Services report that even the head of USAFRICOM had no idea the CIA annex existed.

[spence]

Originally Posted by detbuch

Jim, you're not going to get answers to your questions because Spence, and others, are answering different questions. They continue to point out that a bunch of "investigations" claimed that it was not strategically possible to get help to Benghazi in time.

Yes, let's discount the millions poured into bi-partisan investigations that have for the most part reached similar conclusions.

Instead we should fixate on long-since discredited conspiracy theories.

[JohnR]

So, just saw the movie, good considering it is based on a horrible situation. Authentic mostly and pretty true to the book.

Seemed fair with established facts and did tread a bit into the unestablished.

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by spence

Yes, let's discount the millions poured into bi-partisan investigations that have for the most part reached similar conclusions.

I didn't discount the investigations. I referred to them as backing up the "big picture" of incompetent support policy for the consulate.

Instead we should fixate on long-since discredited conspiracy theories.

What discredited conspiracy theory was I fixated on?

[ecduzitgood]

Maybe Clinton had an affair with him and he threatened to go public
Maybe there was a video to blame....
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[scottw]

Originally Posted by scottw

I think if he announced free government supplied Ben & Jerry's he'd lock up the nomination today....


maybe get his own flavors...Bernie Brickle and Sanders Swirl

BOOM!

my flavor names were much better though I don't think I'd eat it based on the name...ick#@!$

http://thehill.com/blogs/in-the-know...ders-ice-cream

[spence]

What happened to the movie? Oh yes, it's supposed to not be very good.

FOX News of course is blaming liberal movie critics...because conservatives take accountability for their actions.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by spence

What happened to the movie? Oh yes, it's supposed to not be very good.

FOX News of course is blaming liberal movie critics...because conservatives take accountability for their actions.

So because some critics don't like the movie...what, exactly? That means she didn't do anyhting wrong? And if the movie was universally hailed as a masterpiece, you would conclude that she's unfit to be POTUS? Right, right...

It was pretty good, as John said, fairly true to the book. But not a documentary.

[scottw]

Spence is clearly losing what is left of his mind

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by scottw

Spence is clearly losing what is left of his mind

Nothing is (to the) left of his mind? Ha! See what I did there?

He is devoted, that's for sure. When Nixon left in disgrace, I think his approval rating was around 25%. Spence is at least that devoted.

[ecduzitgood]

Originally Posted by scottw

Spence is clearly losing what is left of his mind

I think he hit his head when the weld on his office chair broke
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[spence]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

So because some critics don't like the movie...what, exactly? That means she didn't do anyhting wrong? And if the movie was universally hailed as a masterpiece, you would conclude that she's unfit to be POTUS? Right, right...

No, I'm saying that FOX is blaming liberal movie reporters for the movies poor performance. Which is a shame because they hoped to use the movie to kill Clinton's campaign.

[spence]

Originally Posted by ecduzitgood

I think he hit his head when the weld on his office chair broke
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

I didn't hit my head but it was an epic spill.

[JohnR]

Originally Posted by spence

What happened to the movie? Oh yes, it's supposed to not be very good.

FOX News of course is blaming liberal movie critics...because conservatives take accountability for their actions.

Actually, if this were a fiction movie not based on the death of 4 people it would be excellent. The fact that four people did lose their lives and many others suffered varying levels of injury prevents (me at least) from rating the movie with stars. Is it worth seeing? Abosultely. Is it worth seeing just as a movie and forgetting its association with RL? Yes.

[justplugit]

Originally Posted by JohnR

To be clear, I am just saying what was available in the possible area. From semi available to .

BTW, where were our vast coalition of countries invented by Hilarey and Obama when we needed them during the attack.
Just a phone call away, was that even considered during the attack ????

[spence]

Originally Posted by justplugit

BTW, where were our vast coalition of countries invented by Hilarey and Obama when we needed them during the attack.
Just a phone call away, was that even considered during the attack ????

Can't remember which report but yes they did evaluate assistance from regional allies.

[justplugit]

If your recollection allows, did they call Turkey, where we have bases,
and at 1300 miles from Libya would be less than an hour for a jet fighter ?
Can't believe there wasn't one plane , if not readied, could be readied in
short time.

[JohnR]

Originally Posted by justplugit

If your recollection allows, did they call Turkey, where we have bases,
and at 1300 miles from Libya would be less than an hour for a jet fighter ?
Can't believe there wasn't one plane , if not readied, could be readied in
short time.

Anything at 1300MPH has just a few minutes of fuel. Reasonable cruise speeds are 440-520 knots for F15/16/18 type aircraft NOT loaded down with ordinance (F18 probably has to start flying backwards due to canted tanks and racks but I digress). A10s and AC130s are in the high 200/ low 300 kts range. In my earlier examples F15s from UK and Incirlik, B1s from PG area are the extreme ranges of what is remotely possible assuming early notification, some reasonable alert status, and a State department on the ball. The just mentioned three are not very likely.

And forget about drones - Predators are around 100kts (and don't have the range. The rumored Predator must have already been on station for other purposes - unless it was another drone (Reaper or GH) which had longer range and could have been further out.

From a realistic view only Aviano and Spangdelham (an extra hour in just flight time) were practical and it would need to have some level of alert status, available tanking, host nation permission, and some luck - oh and a properly operating State department. The guys on the ground would move heaven and earth for these people if the information was known.

[justplugit]

Thanks John. Plausible explanation.

I remember Bush saying we were at war with a new kind of enemy after
9/11 and would need to fight differently. That was 15 years ago, and the talk
of small highly trained, quick response groups to respond to terror attacks is evidently not complete.
Of course cutting the military budget has not helped.