turkey already bombing syria

[Pete F.]

Do you think the Turks will figure out who’s PKK or just kill them all and let God sort them out. Ask an Armenian
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[Sea Dangles]

I did ask an Armenian.
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[nightfighter]

This move is nothing short of dishonorable...

Further, it plays right into Putin's playbook... Turkish interests here have nothing to do with US interests.

Consider this; Turkey has banned the word Kurd, and any variants, from its language and jails anyone speaking the Kurdish language. That's solid modern thinking, right?

The Russians went it alone in Afghanistan, and were forced to withdraw. They are not going to make the same mistakes in this region again, but the motives are much the same as they were back then. Just playing with different officials in the countries... Money, arms, food, all the same collateral we use to influence and buy friends.

[JohnR]

Originally Posted by Pete F.

Do you think the Turks will figure out who’s PKK or just kill them all and let God sort them out. Ask an Armenian
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Not sure you really care to the point in your quest to opposite Trump on everything. The Turks don't care. They will kill them all, like the Armenians, Persians, Sunnis, Shias, Cossacks, Azerberjiani, and every other big and small groups within a thousand miles. It is what they do.

[wdmso]

President Tayyip Erdogan said on Thursday Ankara will send the 3.6 million Syrian refugees in Turkey to Europe if European countries label the country's military incursion in Syria as an occupation.

There is Zero chance the Pentagon or our intel agency's. Wasnt aware of this build up. So Trump knew all along . And he green lighted the op with the promise to pull out of the operation area..

He loves his Strong men
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[Got Stripers]

He has so much family interests tied up in Turkey is it really surprising anyone? Allies make us stronger, Trump doesn’t understand the benefits of multiple allies and clearly doesn’t understand the long term harm by abandoning one in their time of need.
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[scottw]

Originally Posted by Got Stripers

He has so much family interests tied up in Turkey is it really surprising anyone?
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like clintons, bidens, kerrys and pelosis have in Ukriane probably just by coincidence...good greif

[Got Stripers]

Big difference in having financial interest and allowing a foreign leader tell you what they want and obliging to protect those interests. Now I’m not saying that is specifically what happened, but it’s pretty clear one phone call made the difference. No consultation with our partners, our allies, our military, just Cheeto making a decision on his own because he is the smartest president of all time as he has told us repeatedly. Most every other president has put interests in a blind trust and have divulged their taxes, Trump as King and above the law and accepted practice, believes he can do anything.

I believe the republican tide is changing, this move to green light Turkeys occupation will make the impeachment vote in the senate a lot closer than he’d like. There is no cure for stupid and this move was beyond stupid, it’s insane.
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[spence]

Originally Posted by Got Stripers

I believe the republican tide is changing, this move to green light Turkeys occupation will make the impeachment vote in the senate a lot closer than he’d like. There is no cure for stupid and this move was beyond stupid, it’s insane.
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Even worse considering Trump can't even say we got anything in return. Considering how depraved, reckless and patently irresponsible this action was you have to wonder what the motivation really is.

[Pete F.]

Just what did Erdogan and Kusher talk about in their late February meeting in Ankara?
Who else was there to represent the US government?
Why did Erdogan go silent about Kashoggi?
Did Erdogan sell out Hamas to be able to attack the Kurds without interference, and we agreed to it?

There is always a quid pro quo in these negotiations.

[scottw]

Originally Posted by Got Stripers

Big difference in having financial interest and allowing a foreign leader tell you what they want and obliging to protect those interests. Now I’m not saying that is specifically what happened


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this is insane

[scottw]

Originally Posted by spence

you have to wonder what the motivation really is.

he was abducted by aliens and they planted it in his brain

[scottw]

Originally Posted by Pete F.

Just what did Erdogan and Kusher talk about in their late February meeting in Ankara?
Who else was there to represent the US government?
Why did Erdogan go silent about Kashoggi?
Did Erdogan sell out Hamas to be able to attack the Kurds without interference, and we agreed to it?

There is always a quid pro quo in these negotiations unless you are a democrat.

fixed it

[Got Stripers]

Scott you will defend him even if it means going down with the ship, we all understand it, it colors every post of whataboutism you put up.

Reckless impulsive foreign policy that kills alliances, harms our allies, betrays the men and women fighting along side the Kurds is wrong. Abandoning the brave Kurds who have been our foot soldiers, who sacrificed over ten thousand with an equal number wounded to help our cause sends a clear message to the world; agreements and alliances with Trump mean absolutely nothing.

Gee I wonder why China walks away quickly every time they meet.

[scottw]

Originally Posted by Got Stripers

Scott you will defend him

when have I ever defended him? I don't like him but I like the democraps a lot less....

you, on the other hand, are on a relentless, mindless jihad

[Sea Dangles]

Originally Posted by scottw

when have I ever defended him? I don't like him but I like the democraps a lot less....

you, on the other hand, are on a relentless, mindless jihad

The guy posts nutty crap and then looks up to see if I will acknowledge his drivel. Very strange cat.
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[Got Stripers]

Nutty like echoing the concerns being voiced by diplomats, military and security experts about how wrong this move in Syria is, yup crazy sh*t.
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[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by spence

I see nobody has any justification for why this is a good idea.
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says a lot about where you are looking.

i’m not saying it was a good idea, but i looked to see what arguments were being made by those who support it ( rand paul, etc).

trump campaigned very specifically on bringing home troops rather than leaving them in endless conflict. you guys like to attack him for failing to meet campaign promises, this is one he kept. trump can argue this is why people voted for him.

as i understand it, we were authorized to have troops in syria to combat ISIS. as i understand it, that mission was accomplished some months ago. if congress wants to expand the scope of that mission, they should
go on record and vote for it.

i also don’t feel like i know who the good guys are in this conflict. are the kurds good guys, or was it an “enemy of my enemy” situation. turkey says the kurds are engaging in terrorism in turkey, you made it sound like a britain/northern ireland situation.

americans are dying there. trump made it clear in his campaign that he wasn’t sacrificing american lives unless there was an immediate vital
interest to the us. killing isis fighters qualifies. standing around, waiting to get sucked into a regional conflict with another nato member? not sure if that qualifies.

and if trump claimed
we were staying there until the end no matter what, at least some of you would
be calling him a warmonger.

if you can’t see where the other side is coming from, it’s because your eyes are closed and your fingers are in your ears. and again, i’m not saying i support the move, not at all. but i took the time
to see both sides.
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[Pete F.]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

says a lot about where you are looking.

i’m not saying it was a good idea, but i looked to see what arguments were being made by those who support it ( rand paul, etc).

trump campaigned very specifically on bringing home troops rather than leaving them in endless conflict. you guys like to attack him for failing to meet campaign promises, this is one he kept. trump can argue this is why people voted for him.

as i understand it, we were authorized to have troops in syria to combat ISIS. as i understand it, that mission was accomplished some months ago. if congress wants to expand the scope of that mission, they should
go on record and vote for it.

i also don’t feel like i know who the good guys are in this conflict. are the kurds good guys, or was it an “enemy of my enemy” situation. turkey says the kurds are engaging in terrorism in turkey, you made it sound like a britain/northern ireland situation.

The US approached the Syrian civil war with caution. Though opposed to the regime of President Bashar al-Assad, its chief concern was that the chaos there provided ungoverned space for the expansion of the so-called caliphate of Islamic State (ISIS).

With its focus on counter-terrorism rather than re-making Syria, the US looked to find an ally who could mount a serious challenge to the fighters of ISIS. Various abortive attempts at arming and training local militias failed - in some cases US weapons were simply handed over to ISIS.

Finally Washington turned to the Kurds. This presented diplomatic problems. There are significant Kurdish populations in several Middle Eastern countries, including Turkey, Syria and Iraq. Many aspire to Kurdish nationhood. After the breakup of the Ottoman Empire, President Woodrow Wilson supported the idea of an independent Kurdish state, but this dream fell apart when Turkish borders were redrawn in 1923. Denied a homeland of their own, the Kurdish diaspora ended up spread across Turkey, Iraq, Syria and Iran, facing pressure and often outright hostility in countries that viewed them with suspicion.

Across the border in Syria a Kurdish group known as the YPG had some links with the PKK (bad guys) in Turkey. And it was the YPG that formed the core element of the mixed Kurdish and Arab militia that Washington decided to throw its weight behind.

Kurdish internal politics are undoubtedly complex. And it is interesting that President Trump himself mixed up these two Kurdish groups - the PKK and the YPG.

But in Turkish minds there is no difference. For Ankara Kurdish groups are terrorists and thus Washington was effectively siding with enemies of the Turkish state.

Washington's decision to support the Kurds with training and equipment reaped dividends. They proved both reliable and capable and the dismantling of the ISIS caliphate in Syria owes much to their efforts.

Simultaneously the US has sought to bend over backwards to calm Turkish fears, most recently developing a pattern of joint patrols between US and Turkish troops as a confidence-building measure in the border area. It is these US forces that were withdrawn ahead of the Turkish operation.

americans are dying there. trump made it clear in his campaign that he wasn’t sacrificing american lives unless there was an immediate vital
interest to the us. killing isis fighters qualifies. standing around, waiting to get sucked into a regional conflict with another nato member? not sure if that qualifies.

and if trump claimed
we were staying there until the end no matter what, at least some of you would
be calling him a warmonger.

if you can’t see where the other side is coming from, it’s because your eyes are closed and your fingers are in your ears. and again, i’m not saying i support the move, not at all. but i took the time
to see both sides.
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President Trump has decided that now the Kurds do not count for much and, despite his denials, he has given the Turks a green light to mount this operation by failing to make it clear to Ankara that this partnership really mattered to Washington.

He had that chance and if he was properly prebriefed with talking points and made aware of the ramifications of his actions possibly he would not have folded like a cheap suitcase.

This is not the first time that the Kurds see themselves as having been f-ed by Washington. At least twice before when Iraqi Kurds were encouraged to rise up against the authorities in Baghdad by the Americans they were let down.

If Trump is to be taken at his word, alliances - whether it be with the Kurds or even within Nato - are for him simply transactional business arrangements to be judged according to a short-term cost-benefit analysis: what is the US giving and what is it getting in return?

The US tried every other option before backing the Kurds. The Kurds have proved time and again their capability as a disciplined, effective fighting force and their commitment to the kind of stable, moderate governance that is sorely lacking in the region.

In writing off the Kurds he suggests that the US can easily find other allies in the region. Really?

If there is a resurgence of ISIS then who is Washington going to turn to?

We will end up sending those young men that you claim to not want there because Trump at a minimum did not pay attention or used his great and wonderful brain instead of listening to people with experience in the area.

We will likely be tangled up in the Middle East either for a long time semipeacefully or until it deteriorates into a major conflict and the #^&#^&#^&#^& hits the fan.
Who knew that governing would be so complicated, you can't do it by tweeting and bullying.
It looks like it could be very close to fan time.

[Jim in CT]

we have two “allies” here, and they really hate each other. how many american lives are worth sacrificing on the altar of that hate, when we had nothing to do with that hate, and no one has been able to address the hate in that region.

that’s the argument to withdraw. do what we can to pressure each side to leave the other alone. would
be nice if the UN could find a way to do something useful.
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[Pete F.]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

we have two “allies” here, and they really hate each other. how many american lives are worth sacrificing on the altar of that hate, when we had nothing to do with that hate, and no one has been able to address the hate in that region.

that’s the argument to withdraw. do what we can to pressure each side to leave the other alone. would
be nice if the UN could find a way to do something useful.
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The same people you cite as wanting to pull out of the Middle East also want to decimate the UN.

While tribal conflicts have always existed in the ME, read the Bible, they were exacerbated by the Division of the Ottoman Empire after WW1.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by Pete F.

The same people you cite as wanting to pull out of the Middle East also want to decimate the UN.

While tribal conflicts have always existed in the ME, read the Bible, they were exacerbated by the Division of the Ottoman Empire after WW1.

whatever. the conflict has always been there. there is an argument to be made that while
we should
never stop trying diplomacy, military intervention should
be limited to cases where the US has a vital interest.

is that really so absurd? put aside
your hate of trump, and ask if that’s so absurd? obama pulled us out iraq when he announced he was going to.
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[Pete F.]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

whatever. the conflict has always been there. there is an argument to be made that while
we should
never stop trying diplomacy, military intervention should
be limited to cases where the US has a vital interest.

is that really so absurd? put aside
your hate of trump, and ask if that’s so absurd? obama pulled us out iraq when he announced he was going to.
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He pulled out 50 people and flushed an ally down the tube with no plan or consultation other than to pull out.

Trump is always transactional, what did he get for letting Turkey do that without a fight and when did he really know Erdogan was going to invade?
This operation was not planned between the phone call on Sunday and Monday when the attack started. Trump's shadow minister met with Erdogan after meeting with MBS in late February, Erdogan went silent on Kashoggi.

Trump Tower Istanbul, Kashoggi, MBS, Kushner the shadow minister and his funding from the Middle East.
They are all connected.

[spence]

Originally Posted by Pete F.

Trump Tower Istanbul, Kashoggi, MBS, Kushner the shadow minister and his funding from the Middle East.
They are all connected.

You forgot the growing humanitarian and terrorism crisis, they're connected also.

[Pete F.]

A comment from Dan Crenshaw

The great irony of the “no more endless wars” camp’s argument is that removing our small and cost-effective force from Northern Syria is causing more war, not less.

Our presence there was not meant to engage in endless wars, it was there to deter further warfare.

[Sea Dangles]

America 1st
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[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by Pete F.

A comment from Dan Crenshaw

The great irony of the “no more endless wars” camp’s argument is that removing our small and cost-effective force from Northern Syria is causing more war, not less.

Our presence there was not meant to engage in endless wars, it was there to deter further warfare.

you can argue the presence keeps turkey at bay. how many american lives is that worth?

pete, a speck of honesty would
mandate that you don’t only look at the benefit of leaving the troops there. you have to compare the benefit and the cost. everything looks swell when you celebrate the benefit and pretend there’s no cost.

and again, trump campaigned
on this, his victory doesn’t suggest to me that americans want troops
there forever.
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[wdmso]

The kurds didn't help in WW 2 or at Normandy..

The stupid sh it never stops
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[Got Stripers]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

you can argue the presence keeps turkey at bay. how many american lives is that worth?

pete, a speck of honesty would
mandate that you don’t only look at the benefit of leaving the troops there. you have to compare the benefit and the cost. everything looks swell when you celebrate the benefit and pretend there’s no cost.

and again, trump campaigned
on this, his victory doesn’t suggest to me that americans want troops
there forever.
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Six deaths vs over 10,000 with as many wounded, but hey guys thanks for the help; now go fu*ck yourselves.
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[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by Got Stripers

Six deaths vs over 10,000 with as many wounded, but hey guys thanks for the help; now go fu*ck yourselves.
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6 american deaths. that’s supposed to be the main concern for our president.

are the turks wrong when they say the kurds are engaging in terrorism in turkey? sincere question.
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