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Old 11-17-2019, 09:13 AM   #31
Jim in CT
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A lot of people serving time for a hoax.
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i have no issue with manafort and stone being convicted. but was anyone convicted of election tampering? or were the charges more like tax evasion, perjury, interfering with the investigation?

is there any evidence that anything that happened overseas had
any meaningful impact on the election?

letís look at his taxes again!!!

hereís an idea spence. perhaps
the democrats could
nominate someone who has a speck of tiny ability to appeal
to SOMEONE who lives between Hollywood and Manhattan. No one in the field besides Biden has that ability. And the party doesnít want Biden, not even Obama wants Biden.
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Old 11-17-2019, 10:21 AM   #32
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Donít know why youíd lie to the FBI or tamper with witnesses unless you did something wrong.

Good read for you also.

https://thebulwark.com/trumps-clean-hands-defense/
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Old 11-17-2019, 10:54 AM   #33
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Donít know why youíd lie to the FBI or tamper with witnesses unless you did something wrong.

Good read for you also.

https://thebulwark.com/trumps-clean-hands-defense/
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and the woman who got a standing ovation, why would she lie about being contacted by the DNC about all this?

Most will lie if it suits them. are you only oncerned when republicans do it? The ambassador said she never spoke to the democrats about this situation, we have emails that show otherwise.
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Old 11-17-2019, 11:52 AM   #34
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They got the invite, they are called subpoena and had they testified under oath, their testimony would be part of the record.
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Some selected people were "invited," a whole lot of people were not. People that the Repubs wanted to testify were blocked.
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Old 11-17-2019, 12:26 PM   #35
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Some selected people were "invited," a whole lot of people were not. People that the Repubs wanted to testify were blocked.
Like bidens Son?

Love to hear how you think that witness would provide any relevance ... other than a deflection
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Old 11-17-2019, 12:28 PM   #36
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and the woman who got a standing ovation, why would she lie about being contacted by the DNC about all this?

Most will lie if it suits them. are you only oncerned when republicans do it? The ambassador said she never spoke to the democrats about this situation, we have emails that show otherwise.
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You do know the DNC and a Democratic house member or senator are not the same. Correct

Please stop with the conspiracys. Post links and sources. Or just admit he did it. Its easier then being a contortionist.. avoiding whats known and grasping at straws
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Old 11-17-2019, 01:08 PM   #37
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Didn’t think you were as drunk on the Trump cocktail as some others, but I guess it’s all party lines, ignore the abuse. Trump isn’t going about running the country any differently than he ran his company, he has no respect for law, truth is as he sees and speaks it and the only thing he cares about is promoting his brand.
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I am sober about the leftist, Progressive continual dismantling of our constitutional republic and incrementally transforming it into a quasi democracy.

It's not about Trump, per se, for me. I am not drinking whatever cocktail you accuse him of serving. He is not the best, nor the worst, to lead us back in the founding direction. He is, with all of his flaws, better, wittingly or unwittingly, at lopping off many of the Progressive appendages of power and influence which have metastasized into our governing structure. And he certainly has outed so called Conservative pretenders.

For those who are actually interested in our real foundational corruption rather than the inevitable surface eruptions of flawed and corrupt politicians, he is a clarifying point of departure from the quickening tack toward despotic government underpinned by the tyranny of a willing and dependent majority.

I am not for a "democracy." I am with the Founders in recognizing that democracies evolve into tyrannical majoritarian rule directed by the few despots who coerce the majority, first by favor catering to human self-interest , then by force, into giving themselves the power to inflict every self-aggrandizing policy they wish. Some think this is good--that a benevolent dictatorship is the best way of securing the well-being of the masses.

The Progressive notion of democracy is, as I implied, "quasi." It uses the method of voting, not to accede to the will of the people, but to subdue them to the will of supposedly wiser and more able experts who will overcome the petty self-interests of individuals and, by their superior knowledge of what is good for all people, create the governing bureaucracy that can, without local impediments, distribute that good to everyone in the most equitable and efficient manor.

Before Trump started wielding his wrecking hammer, we were on the doorstep of that quasi-democracy with its rule by bureaucratic agencies.

It is obvious to many of us, that the constant negative attention being paid to Trump, and the unabated effort to get rid of him, to impeach him before he even had a chance to exercise any presidential power, and continually seeking ways to do so when other ways fail--and in light of him being one of theirs before he ran for the office--that there is something way beyond him as Trump that is behind all these efforts.

So it is not about Trump per se for me. It is about that "way beyond" thing. All of this impeachment nonsense is first a distraction from that thing, and second a maybe-get-lucky effort that gets him out of the way of that ultimate quasi-democracy.

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Old 11-17-2019, 01:11 PM   #38
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You do know the DNC and a Democratic house member or senator are not the same. Correct

Please stop with the conspiracys. Post links and sources. Or just admit he did it. Its easier then being a contortionist.. avoiding whats known and grasping at straws
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youíre right i misspoke. she got an email
from a democrat staffer, and under oath she said she didnít respond
to it, and she did.

she also admitted zero knowledge of trump doing anything illegal.

she got a standing ovation because trump fired her. that must make her an innocent victim of his scumbaggery, as opposed to it being beyond common for presidents to replace political appointees from the previous administration. democrat presidents NEVER do that.
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Old 11-17-2019, 03:54 PM   #39
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youíre right i misspoke. she got an email
from a democrat staffer, and under oath she said she didnít respond
to it, and she did.

she also admitted zero knowledge of trump doing anything illegal.

she got a standing ovation because trump fired her. that must make her an innocent victim of his scumbaggery, as opposed to it being beyond common for presidents to replace political appointees from the previous administration. democrat presidents NEVER do that.
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What part of a witness doesn't determine what is or isn't a crime ..

Why do Republicans keep thinking that has any relevance. If the think it was or was not a crime?

I am certain if she said yes she thought it was a crime .. your tune would be different
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Old 11-17-2019, 04:01 PM   #40
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I am sober about the leftist, Progressive continual dismantling of our constitutional republic and incrementally transforming it into a quasi democracy.

It's not about Trump, per se, for me. I am not drinking whatever cocktail you accuse him of serving. He is not the best, nor the worst, to lead us back in the founding direction. He is, with all of his flaws, better, wittingly or unwittingly, at lopping off many of the Progressive appendages of power and influence which have metastasized into our governing structure. And he certainly has outed so called Conservative pretenders.

For those who are actually interested in our real foundational corruption rather than the inevitable surface eruptions of flawed and corrupt politicians, he is a clarifying point of departure from the quickening tack toward despotic government underpinned by the tyranny of a willing and dependent majority.

I am not for a "democracy." I am with the Founders in recognizing that democracies evolve into tyrannical majoritarian rule directed by the few despots who coerce the majority, first by favor catering to human self-interest , then by force, into giving themselves the power to inflict every self-aggrandizing policy they wish. Some think this is good--that a benevolent dictatorship is the best way of securing the well-being of the masses.

The Progressive notion of democracy is, as I implied, "quasi." It uses the method of voting, not to accede to the will of the people, but to subdue them to the will of supposedly wiser and more able experts who will overcome the petty self-interests of individuals and, by their superior knowledge of what is good for all people, create the governing bureaucracy that can, without local impediments, distribute that good to everyone in the most equitable and efficient manor.

Before Trump started wielding his wrecking hammer, we were on the doorstep of that quasi-democracy with its rule by bureaucratic agencies.

It is obvious to many of us, that the constant negative attention being paid to Trump, and the unabated effort to get rid of him, to impeach him before he even had a chance to exercise any presidential power, and continually seeking ways to do so when other ways fail--and in light of him being one of theirs before he ran for the office--that there is something way beyond him as Trump that is behind all these efforts.

So it is not about Trump per se for me. It is about that "way beyond" thing. All of this impeachment nonsense is first a distraction from that thing, and second a maybe-get-lucky effort that gets him out of the way of that ultimate quasi-democracy.
If thats not a kool aid driven reply. Of conspiracies mixed with chicken little with a dash of i want a time machine to bring me back to when American was acceptable.. i am not sure what else to call it. A manifesto?
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Old 11-17-2019, 06:01 PM   #41
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What part of a witness doesn't determine what is or isn't a crime ..

Why do Republicans keep thinking that has any relevance. If the think it was or was not a crime?

I am certain if she said yes she thought it was a crime .. your tune would be different
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youíre talking gibberish. she was there to play the victim, to say orange man bad because she got fired. but all presidents do that. all of them.
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Old 11-17-2019, 07:45 PM   #42
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youíre talking gibberish.

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I keep telling him this.. he doesn't believe me
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Old 11-17-2019, 08:00 PM   #43
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If thats not a kool aid driven reply.

It isn't.

Of conspiracies

I pointed out a historical process that has occurred. There is indisputable evidence of what direction and into which system of government that Progressives want to take us. That evidence is far more compelling than what leftist Dems claim is evidence that Trump committed an impeachable offense.

I suppose that, in your typical incoherent ability to perceive and conclude, you could see that as a conspiracy . . . or anything else your distorted brain desires.


mixed with chicken little

No chicken little. If the sky were actually falling, we wouldn't have the chicken little meme. What I referred to is not a fictitious "sky is falling." It is a historical fact.



with a dash of i want a time machine to bring me back to when American was acceptable..

I spoke of past, present, and future, and the directions in which founding notions and Progressives ones take us. I didn't claim a desire to go back to another time. The founding principles are not time dependent. Neither are Progressive ones. We can move forward with either, or with others. I gave my preference and some reasons why.

i am not sure what else to call it. A manifesto?
What you call it is irrelevant since you have not demonstrated an ability to coherently discuss it.
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Old 11-18-2019, 05:34 AM   #44
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I'm offended by the title of this thread..it's deer season you know....don't you know she got a standing applause for her Oscar winning performance??????
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Old 11-18-2019, 05:40 AM   #45
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If thats not a kool aid driven reply. Of conspiracies mixed with chicken little with a dash of i want a time machine to bring me back to when American was acceptable.. i am not sure what else to call it. A manifesto?
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you forgot to mention faux news
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Old 11-18-2019, 08:01 AM   #46
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Can you tell me why she was there? What was the point of her testimony?
Quite simply to outline the corruption engendered by the Floridaman administration in Ukraine, which she did quite effectively. Floridaman noticed

In her testimony, Yovanovitch detailed how Giuliani and his associates Lev Parnas and Igor Fruman worked with a corrupt Ukrainian prosecutor to orchestrate a smear campaign against her, oust her from her post as ambassador, and "circumvent official channels" of Ukraine policy. Yovanovitch also testified, "Perhaps it was not surprising that when our anti-corruption efforts got in the way of the desire for profit or power, Ukrainians who preferred to play by the old, corrupt rules sought to remove me. What continues to amaze me is that they found Americans willing to partner with them and, working together, they apparently succeeded in orchestrating the removal of a U.S. ambassador. How could our system fail like this? How is it that foreign corrupt interests could manipulate our government?" While Yovanovitch was testifying, Trump denigrated her on Twitter. When read what the president had written about her, Yovanovitch testified: "It's very intimidating. I can't speak to what the president is trying to do, but the effect is to be intimidating."
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"I would like you to do us a favor though"
Donald Trump

"Was there a quid pro quo?.....The answer is yes"
Ambassador Gordon Sondland

"Get over it"
Acting Chief of Staff Mick Mulvaney

"Everyone was in the loop.....It was no secret."
Ambassador Gordon Sondland
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Old 11-18-2019, 09:20 AM   #47
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Quite simply to outline the corruption engendered by the Floridaman administration in Ukraine, which she did quite effectively. Floridaman noticed

In her testimony, Yovanovitch detailed how Giuliani and his associates Lev Parnas and Igor Fruman worked with a corrupt Ukrainian prosecutor to orchestrate a smear campaign against her, oust her from her post as ambassador, and "circumvent official channels" of Ukraine policy. Yovanovitch also testified, "Perhaps it was not surprising that when our anti-corruption efforts got in the way of the desire for profit or power, Ukrainians who preferred to play by the old, corrupt rules sought to remove me. What continues to amaze me is that they found Americans willing to partner with them and, working together, they apparently succeeded in orchestrating the removal of a U.S. ambassador. How could our system fail like this? How is it that foreign corrupt interests could manipulate our government?" While Yovanovitch was testifying, Trump denigrated her on Twitter. When read what the president had written about her, Yovanovitch testified: "It's very intimidating. I can't speak to what the president is trying to do, but the effect is to be intimidating."
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thing is, trump didn't need any reason whatsoever to dump her, because that happens all the time
when the administration changes.

so she was a disgruntled former employee, playing the victim card. she also appears to have lied about responding to democrats attempts to reach out to her in this issue. she also explicitly testified to having zero knowledge that trump did
anything illegal.

thatís some smoking gun.
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Old 11-18-2019, 09:22 AM   #48
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youíre talking gibberish. she was there to play the victim, to say orange man bad because she got fired. but all presidents do that. all of them.
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????????????? What part don't you understand besides all of it
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Old 11-18-2019, 09:26 AM   #49
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????????????? What part don't you understand besides all of it
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little of what you say. itís incoherent gibberish.

what did she witness that trump
did, which is a high crime or
misdemeanor? Her getting fired by trump, doesnít qualify. Sorry.
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Old 11-18-2019, 09:27 AM   #50
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What you call it is irrelevant since you have not demonstrated an ability to coherently discuss it.
I dont discuss ones over active imagination
Of what America has become.. while not providing base line of when American was acceptable
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Old 11-18-2019, 09:33 AM   #51
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little of what you say. itís incoherent gibberish.

what did she witness that trump
did, which is a high crime or
misdemeanor? Her getting fired by trump, doesnít qualify. Sorry.
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You present the fact she said it was not a crime..

I clearly explained why its not a witness role to determine if a crime was committed..

Clearly you dont understand thats how it is

Then you added your usual she tried to make Trump look bad?

So if she stated Trump committed a crime you whould have went off about her being bias or never trumper or just hateful... correct
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Old 11-18-2019, 09:44 AM   #52
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You present the fact she said it was not a crime..

I clearly explained why its not a witness role to determine if a crime was committed..

Clearly you dont understand thats how it is

Then you added your usual she tried to make Trump look bad?

So if she stated Trump committed a crime you whould have went off about her being bias or never trumper or just hateful... correct
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nothing she testified to, is evidence he committed a crime. there is evidence, however, that she lied under oath. she made contradictory statements about contact with democrats.

firing her, was not an impeachable offense. even being obnoxious to her, isnít impeachable.
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Old 11-18-2019, 10:21 AM   #53
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thing is, trump didn't need any reason whatsoever to dump her, because that happens all the time
when the administration changes.

so she was a disgruntled former employee, playing the victim card. she also appears to have lied about responding to democrats attempts to reach out to her in this issue. she also explicitly testified to having zero knowledge that trump did
anything illegal.

thatís some smoking gun.
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Why do you need a smoking gun?
Floridaman learned plausible deniability from Roy Cohn many years ago. It's why he doesn't think lawyers write anything down. He's done it for years and never been indicted.

I doubt that Sondland, Perry, Guiliani or Volker will go to jail for Floridaman. One of these guys will flip.

As far as the emails that she responded to, I would assume that anyone who has worked at high levels of government for 33 years would have numerous contacts on both sides of the aisle. She had already asked the political appointee in the State Department for an explanation of why she was removed from her post and received no answer. She spoke with people she knew. Do you find that improbable or do you only see the world in a partisan fashion?

Look at a list of Ambassadors ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ambass...S._ambassadors ) and see how many are Career Diplomats. There are many who, as Yovanovitch did, served thru multiple administrations of both parties. In 33 years she worked for administrations of both parties.

I posted the reason people lobbied to have her removed and testimony confirms it. The reason she was called was to testify about the role of the Floridaman administration in Ukraine. Can you refute, with proof, that it was because she worked against corruption in Ukraine?

"I would like you to do us a favor though"
Donald Trump

"Was there a quid pro quo?.....The answer is yes"
Ambassador Gordon Sondland

"Get over it"
Acting Chief of Staff Mick Mulvaney

"Everyone was in the loop.....It was no secret."
Ambassador Gordon Sondland
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Old 11-18-2019, 11:31 AM   #54
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They are all great men and women, highly respected, great background, distinguished careers UNTIL they cross him or donít agree with him publicly and in support of anything he has or wants to do; then they all apparently regardless of their service to this country become something else. When Trump turns on you itís all out smear, denigrate, belittle, name call and it really only shows everyone the true character of this clown.
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Old 11-18-2019, 12:21 PM   #55
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I dont discuss ones over active imagination
Of what America has become.. while not providing base line of when American was acceptable
What America has become is a huge arena of discussion. It involves much, much more than its system of government. I was focusing my concern to the narrow but extremely important discussion of the distinction between our founding governmental principles and the Progressive philosophy of government. I believe that would be an easier and more manageable discussion than the voluminous scope of realities which depict what America has become.

Nor can there be a universal opinion that being an American is acceptable. Acceptable to whom? That would be up to the individual having such an opinion. And acceptable in what respect?

If by a baseline you mean a particular year, my over active imagination would guess that, for some, being an American was acceptable when there was first a notion of such a thing. I don't know what that date would be, but am sure that was a long time ago.
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Old 11-18-2019, 12:52 PM   #56
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When Trump turns on you itís all out smear, denigrate, belittle, name call and it really only shows everyone the true character of this clown.

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ummm.....have you watched the democraps go after people that they disagree with????
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Old 11-18-2019, 01:09 PM   #57
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They are all great men and women, highly respected, great background, distinguished careers.

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you say so. do you know how common it is, for
new administrations
to come in and clean hose? the firings are common. the only unique thing about trump, is his idiotic tweets.

clinton and obama sure did it.
only a character flaw when trump
does it.
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Old 11-18-2019, 01:09 PM   #58
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you say so. do you know how common it is, for
new administrations
to come in and clean hose? the firings are common. the only unique thing about trump, is his idiotic tweets.
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So you don't see a difference in how every other admin. replaces people with how Trump replaced her?
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Old 11-18-2019, 01:15 PM   #59
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So you don't see a difference in how every other admin. replaces people with how Trump replaced her?
nope. only to the way he would
have tweeted about it. only in that heíd be juvenile and vulgar about it.

bill clinton, i believe, fired every single us attorney he inherited.
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Old 11-18-2019, 01:25 PM   #60
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you say so. do you know how common it is, for
new administrations
to come in and clean hose? the firings are common. the only unique thing about trump, is his idiotic tweets.

clinton and obama sure did it.
only a character flaw when trump
does it.
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That is baloney, cite some evidence of when Career diplomats were cleaned out. I would expect it would be true for Political Appointees (PA)
Career diplomats postings typically last about 3 years.
Here is the list of currently serving ambassadors by appointment date.
It is not the complete list but Floridaman has made numerous appointments of Career diplomats (CD) since being inaugurated.
Others have paid or made donations of millions and become ambassadors.


Malawi List Robert K. Scott CD Lilongwe December 12, 2014
Palau[58] List Amy J. Hyatt CD Koror December 12, 2014
Romania List Hans G. Klemm[62] CD Bucharest August 5, 2015
Eswatini (Swaziland)[34] List Lisa J. Peterson CD Mbabane November 19, 2015
Oman List Marc Jonathan Sievers CD Muscat November 19, 2015
Uganda List Deborah R. Malac CD Kampala November 19, 2015
Antigua and Barbuda[11] List Linda Swartz Taglialatela[12] CD Bridgetown December 9, 2015
Barbados[11] List Linda Swartz Taglialatela[12] CD Bridgetown December 9, 2015
Dominica[11] List Linda Swartz Taglialatela[12] CD Bridgetown December 9, 2015
Grenada[11] List Linda Swartz Taglialatela[12] CD Bridgetown December 9, 2015
Saint Kitts and Nevis[11] List Linda Swartz Taglialatela[12] CD Bridgetown December 9, 2015
Saint Lucia[11] List Linda Swartz Taglialatela[12] CD Bridgetown December 9, 2015
Saint Vincent and the Grenadines[11] List Linda Swartz Taglialatela[12] CD Bridgetown December 9, 2015
Burma (Myanmar)[21] List Scot Marciel CD Rangoon [9] February 9, 2016
Lebanon List Elizabeth Holzhall Richard CD Beirut May 17, 2016
Liberia List Christine A. Elder CD Monrovia May 17, 2016
Marshall Islands List Karen B. Stewart CD Majuro May 17, 2016
Federated States of Micronesia Micronesia List Robert Riley CD Kolonia May 17, 2016
Greece List Geoffrey Pyatt CD Athens [20] July 14, 2016
Kuwait List Lawrence Robert Silverman CD Kuwait City July 14, 2016
Burkina Faso List Andrew Robert Young CD Ouagadougou September 28, 2016
Indonesia List Joseph R. Donovan Jr. CD Jakarta [23] September 28, 2016
Laos List Rena Bitter CD Vientiane September 28, 2016
Philippines[58] List Sung Y. Kim CD Manila [39] September 28, 2016
Malaysia List Kamala Shirin Lakhdhir CD Kuala Lumpur December 9, 2016
Israel List David M. Friedman PA Jerusalem [26] March 23, 2017
Republic of the Congo Congo-Brazzaville List Todd Haskell CD Brazzaville May 18, 2017
Guinea-Bissau[41] List Tulinabo S. Mushingi CD Bissau VPP May 18, 2017
Senegal[41] List Tulinabo S. Mushingi CD Dakar May 18, 2017
China List Terry Branstad PA Beijing [11] May 22, 2017
New Zealand[55] List Scott Brown PA Wellington [36] June 8, 2017
Samoa[55] List Scott Brown PA Matafele Apia June 8, 2017
Algeria List John Desrocher CD Algiers August 3, 2017
Ethiopia List Michael A. Raynor CD Addis Ababa August 3, 2017
Peru List Krishna Urs CD Lima August 3, 2017
Sierra Leone List Maria Brewer CD Freetown August 3, 2017
Costa Rica List Sharon Day PA San Josť August 3, 2017
Italy[44] List Lewis Eisenberg PA Rome [27] August 3, 2017
Portugal List George Edward Glass PA Lisbon [41] August 3, 2017

"I would like you to do us a favor though"
Donald Trump

"Was there a quid pro quo?.....The answer is yes"
Ambassador Gordon Sondland

"Get over it"
Acting Chief of Staff Mick Mulvaney

"Everyone was in the loop.....It was no secret."
Ambassador Gordon Sondland
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