Black Salties could ease the no live herring dilemma

[piemma]

What a great post. Thank God there is a voice of reason.

[Navy Chief]

I understand that the non-availability or high price of native baits make us search for alternatives but think about the potential for problems with these Black Salties.

Thirty years ago someone said "I'm going to plant this pretty Kudzo in my backyard, what's the harm"

In the 1920's, someone said "Lets let these 10 Starlings fly around Central Park"

"This Water Hyacnth is so pretty" "There's too much Water Hyacnth, lets release some Nutria"

So, while they die in saltwater after a couple hours, in fresh water, given time and perhaps the perfect set of circumstances, they may completely decimate native populations. Ecosystems are balanced things and small things can cause problems.

The removal of wolves in Yellowstone Park in the 1940's led to the erosion of river banks and trout breeding problems.

Throw plugs, they die.

[JFigliuolo]

Originally Posted by Navy Chief

...

Thirty years ago someone said "I'm going to plant this pretty Kudzo in my backyard, what's the harm"

In the 1920's, someone said "Lets let these 10 Starlings fly around Central Park"

...
Throw plugs, they die.

Actually Kudzo was planted by the highway depts to control erosion...

[eelman]

Great post CaptDom! I cant wait to use these things! very exited Livewell.....Boat.....Bassssssssssssssssssssssssss sssssssssssss

[choggieman]

Basswipe, you hit the nail on the head! CaptDom, thank you for allaying my fears of non-native species over taking bodies of water.
Too many horror shows have come to be by bringing in species that are not part of the eco system and having them destroy the native species through predation or even simple competition for food.

[Nebe]

real fishermen use artificials

[RIROCKHOUND]

Real fisherman like Block Island Jeff use their bare hands...

Dom... good to hear Sammy is carrying these.... congrats on the 50 last year... I live on that spot/area in May-June... never gave it a thought in October....

[CaptDom]

Hey Bryan,

Thanks for the congrat wishes, You probably threw countless casts there all year, I was just in the right place right time. That fish had 2 trailers with it, so keep at it later in the year, you might get 1 of his buddies! There was a big run of larger fish that whole week, I got mine the night before that big noreaster.

Navy Chief, I understand your concerns, but this fish would have an extremely difficult time establishing itself in any body of water where a predatory fish resides. There are situations where non native species can actually benefit an ecosystem. Take for the prime example, the Large and Small mouth basses. These are actually members of the sunfish family, and due to their popularity, were introduced as non native species all over the world, with great success. The striped bass has been introduced to many larger freshwater impoundments with great success as well, and these are predatory, top of the food chain fish. People need to understand that man has already imbalanced the natural distribution of ecosystems on land and in water, so almost all habitats have some sort of non native species in it. There is no way we can go back to the way it was before man meddled, but we can certainly use knowledge, science, and responsibility to stregthen certain habitats by introducing forage species and predator species that will flourish without dramatically altering or harming in any way that particular ecosystem. These fish would only help supply forage if by some dramatic circumstances were introduced, whether purposely or by accident into fresh water.( A scenario that in my opinion would be very very unlikely)

This fish has been used in many states with freshwater bodies for some time now, and it has only improved the fishing. Recreational fishing is a 60 billion $$ plus economy with well over 40 million participants. These fish will take great pressure off a strained baitfish population, a good thing as pogies, eels, and herring are in serious trouble.

[eelman]

Originally Posted by Nebe

real fishermen use artificials

And live bait fisherman catch fish

[Clammer]

& country western woman are awesome

[fishaholic18]

Originally Posted by Clammer

& country western woman are awesome

Ride 'em cowboy..

[Gloucester2]

Nebe - that comment is worthless without pictures .. .

[TheSpecialist]

I had sent off an email to Mass fish and wildlife. They replied that the bait fish was illegal for "use as a freshwater baitfish". They then stated that I should check with the Division of marine fisheries about importing and sale for saltwater baitfish. I am still waiting for a reply.

You may not use that baitfish for freshwater fishing in Massachusetts. If you want to import and sell them as saltwater baitfish, you need to contact the DIvision of Marine FIsheries for permits and guidance. I will include them in this email.


www.mass.gov/masswildlife

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-----Original Message-----
From: William [mailto:mitsdog@verizon.net]
Sent: Saturday, April 29, 2006 9:40 PM
To: Wildlife, Mass (FWE)
Subject: Baitfish


I was wondering if this baitfish is legal for sale by shops in Massachusetts. I want to get my local shops to carry them; they seem to be a good substitute for live herring. They were carried by tackle shops in RI last year.





http://www.blacksalty.com/index.html









Thanks,



William Mitsiopoulos.

[CaptDom]

I too contacted MA DFW, and they said that the only restrictions they could find were specifically as a FRESHWATER BAIT. The gentleman I spoke with said he could not find any regulation which prohibited possession or use in saltwater. It is legal to possess goldfish in the state of MA, so simple possesion will not get you into any trouble, that much is certain. We are waiting to get written documentation describing any legalities for saltwater use.

[zimmy]

Originally Posted by CaptDom

Hi Guys,
Think of it this way.... how many legally sold Koi or goldfish are transacted in RI each year, and how many ponds do you know of where monster goldfish lurk awaiting your every cast???

Excerpt below from 2004, not from Rhody.

"The Indiana Post-Tribune is reporting that the state's Spectacle Lake is infested with, of all things - goldfish (Cyprinus auratus)...This is actually the second time in fifteen years that Spectacle Lake has been overrun with goldfish,...Goldfish can destroy bass nests when they kick up bottom sediments. When they reach critical population levels, they can also drop the dissolved oxygen content of the water to a point that is tolerable to them, but deadly to bass..."

The problem is not isolated to Indiana and not limited to goldfish. It is also well documented. The impact can't be measured by how many goldfish are stealing your bait... although it might impact the #'s of other fish you catch.

The lake on which my inlaws have a cottage in CT has many huge goldfish. How many? Who knows? Their impact on the established populations in the lake? Not been studied ( at least not published...), but take a swim and you will see em.

Hopefully Capt Dom is correct. However, I wonder how long they have been used in the south and who has evaluated the population of salties and impacts of such pop. on ecology of the bodies of freshwater. How can it be said that there has been no impact? I could go on about this all day, but I'll stop. It just seems like there is a potentially large and ultimately unnecessary risk.

[Parker650]

Just my $0.02...

"There is no way we can go back to the way it was before man meddled, but we can certainly use knowledge, science, and responsibility to stregthen certain habitats by introducing forage species and predator species that will flourish without dramatically altering or harming in any way that particular ecosystem."

Can you honestly say that EXTENSIVE knowledge has been gained over the last 6-7 years that these fish have been 'developed' to come to a solid, definitive answer that these fish won't displace an ecosystem? Even though man may have altered what was native prior to us messing with it does not make it ok to do so presently. Why not preserve what we have and prevent any further impacts by not messing with our ecosystem at all? We already know the issues that have come up, why even entertain this. Preserve is the key, not introducing other species to manipulate an ecosystem that we feel is 'flourishing' with our idea of good species. I think people should start re-thinking and putting their efforts into re-habilitating rivers, ponds, whatever to promote what thrives there naturally. Maybe what is there wasn't native 1000 years ago, but it certainly isn't going to do us any good by changing what is here now any more.


"We can certainly use knowledge, science, and responsibility to stregthen certain habitats by introducing forage species and predator species that will flourish without dramatically altering or harming in any way that particular ecosystem."

You could achieve this easily...go fishing in your own aquarium.

"This fish has been used in many states with freshwater bodies for some time now, and it has only improved the fishing. Recreational fishing is a 60 billion $$ plus economy with well over 40 million participants. These fish will take great pressure off a strained baitfish population, a good thing as pogies, eels, and herring are in serious trouble."

I find it ironic that your statement of how these fish have improved fishing is supported by economic $$$ numbers. This is why we are where we are today. Man will use/abuse any resource available on this earth to make a $ and can justify it because of the $$$ to be had in doing so. Stop thinking in terms of money and start thinking in terms of natural ecosystems. Yes they have been manipulated by us. No they won't be any better if we keep messing with them. ANY non-native fish introduced into an ecosystem WILL displace that ecosystem. There is no way around it. Those fish have to eat and take up space. They will have an impact and will effect other organisms within that system, one way or the other.

Seems to me like there is $$$ behind this motive. I'm not buying it...I'll second the vote for plugs.

[eelman]

OMG....All this over a goldfish.Use the damn things in Saltwater and dont worry about it...To much time thinking and not enough time fishing.....Of all things people are "concerned" over using a golfish as bait..JUST FISH.....................

[CaptDom]

Originally Posted by Parker650

Just my $0.02...

"There is no way we can go back to the way it was before man meddled, but we can certainly use knowledge, science, and responsibility to stregthen certain habitats by introducing forage species and predator species that will flourish without dramatically altering or harming in any way that particular ecosystem."

Can you honestly say that EXTENSIVE knowledge has been gained over the last 6-7 years that these fish have been 'developed' to come to a solid, definitive answer that these fish won't displace an ecosystem? Even though man may have altered what was native prior to us messing with it does not make it ok to do so presently. Why not preserve what we have and prevent any further impacts by not messing with our ecosystem at all? We already know the issues that have come up, why even entertain this. Preserve is the key, not introducing other species to manipulate an ecosystem that we feel is 'flourishing' with our idea of good species. I think people should start re-thinking and putting their efforts into re-habilitating rivers, ponds, whatever to promote what thrives there naturally. Maybe what is there wasn't native 1000 years ago, but it certainly isn't going to do us any good by changing what is here now any more.


"We can certainly use knowledge, science, and responsibility to stregthen certain habitats by introducing forage species and predator species that will flourish without dramatically altering or harming in any way that particular ecosystem."

You could achieve this easily...go fishing in your own aquarium.

"This fish has been used in many states with freshwater bodies for some time now, and it has only improved the fishing. Recreational fishing is a 60 billion $$ plus economy with well over 40 million participants. These fish will take great pressure off a strained baitfish population, a good thing as pogies, eels, and herring are in serious trouble."

I find it ironic that your statement of how these fish have improved fishing is supported by economic $$$ numbers. This is why we are where we are today. Man will use/abuse any resource available on this earth to make a $ and can justify it because of the $$$ to be had in doing so. Stop thinking in terms of money and start thinking in terms of natural ecosystems. Yes they have been manipulated by us. No they won't be any better if we keep messing with them. ANY non-native fish introduced into an ecosystem WILL displace that ecosystem. There is no way around it. Those fish have to eat and take up space. They will have an impact and will effect other organisms within that system, one way or the other.

Seems to me like there is $$$ behind this motive. I'm not buying it...I'll second the vote for plugs.

Parker, you are obviously dedicated to conservation and preservation, for that I commend you. However, you are assuming that just because these fish are now available to the public that they will be purposefully introduced to a body of fresh water, or if so, will dramatically effect resident populations therein. The same threat has existed since the very first non native fish became available to the public in petshops and baitshops countrywide and abroad as many exotics have been available for a long time; so yes, the inherent threat exists with this, and many, many other species. However, what would these fish mess up in an isolated case where they thrived, the anglers ability to catch other "gamefish", which may be non native species themselves?

I'm not sure what is ironic about my mentioning of the recreational fishing industry and the amount of anglers/money involved. Money makes the world go round, and is an underlying issue with almost any topic concievable today. I mentioned it because an economic gain in todays world is in my opinion a good thing, plain and simple, especially if it also takes pressure off a "natural" species stock that has serious problems in todays world..

As far as fishing in a body of water that has been manipulated by man, there are not many ponds or lakes available to the public that don't have an introduced specie in it. Largemouth and smallmouth bass have been introduced worldwide, and have even inter bred with other species in those bodies of water, yet most would view that as a positive. I don't need to fish in my own aquarium to achieve this, just go to my local pond or stream and catch one of the many available stocked, or introduced fish. I brought up man meddling because it is a fact that I, nor anyone else, can now change. However, I do find it interesting that a recreational angler such as yourself who now benefits from man meddling, i.e. striped bass recovery, trout hatcheries, largemouth bass, smallmouth bass, could have such a problem with it. I am not saying that a problem couldn't arise, but in my mind is miniscule in comparison with the positives that come with the very small negative attached to the Black Salty.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and I respect yours. However, the fact remains that this fish will be used in RI, and hopefully responsibly by all those purchasing them. I would never want to see a species destroy or irrevocably change any of our bodies of water, yet I see only benefits from these baits, not problems, whether my stance is founded in economic or personal reasons is a mute issue.

[JFigliuolo]

In salt water, I don't see an issue. These fish WILL die in a few hours (Hopefully sooner )

In fresh water I might be able to see how they MIGHT cause a problem. That's MIGHT, MAYBE, etc...

But for the salt, IF they take pressure off of native bait I say

[choggieman]

bravo parker650! It is amazing to me how some can be so ignorant and claim its just a fish. Apparently they have no idea the ramifications that non native species can have on ecosystems.. Fish it in the slat and ban it in fresh, easy enuf!

[choggieman]

#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&, how would you feel if you found out that black salties only preyed upon eels when they were in freshwater- further depleting the american eel stocks?

[TheSpecialist]

Like others have sai, most nonnative species get introduced by people who buy a fish from the pet store, not realizing it will eat every other fish in the tank, or that it will grow to enormous proportions. They then release them into a pond, cause god forbidyou should toss it downthe toilet or into the garden.
It's very simple.

Angler, "I'd like some Black salties please."

Bait Proprieter, "Going for some monster stripers eh?"

Angler, "Well I was planning on using them in goldfish pond for some lunker largemouth."

Bait Proprieter, " Sorry I can only sell these for use as saltwater baitfish, they are illegal for freshwater, may I suggest these monster shinersfor your type of fishing."


The purchaser has been warned.

[eelman]

Originally Posted by choggieman

#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&, how would you feel if you found out that black salties only preyed upon eels when they were in freshwater- further depleting the american eel stocks?

Your reaching, give me a break.Goldfish eating eels now.......

[choggieman]

ok, lets say they feed on the same things the eels do, but multiply rapidly and eat all the feed..........

[spence]

I did a little research...here is a Black Salty after 3 months in a tidal river.



-spence

[eelman]

Originally Posted by choggieman

ok, lets say they feed on the same things the eels do, but multiply rapidly and eat all the feed..........

Lets say you should be on someones couch.You have issues that are beyond me.......seek help........I dont think that deep, and to be honest There are more important things to worry about..Like how big a livewell I need

[eelman]

Originally Posted by spence

I did a little research...here is a Black Salty after 3 months in a tidal river.



-spence

[basswipe]

Originally Posted by CaptDom

Hi Guys,

Lurked here for a while, never posted as didn't feel appropriate with my profession while not being a sponsor. Like the information exchanged, and the obvious passion you all share for fishing.

That being said, I want to clear up a few things in regards to the Black Salty. These fish are farm raised members of the goldfish family, and were developed in aquaculture ponds in Arkansas, not in a lab. They have not been genetically altered in any way, they have simply been acclimated to salt water immersion over a 7 year process, and the heartiest specimens were then bred and retained.

Depends on your definition of a lab.A laboratory is a controlled environment and the aquaculture ponds of Anderson that these fish were developed in certainly meet that criteria.They WERE developed in a lab.Also selective breeding IS genetic manipution.

Doesn't matter that they die in slatwater there will always be some moron who'll want his own private stash and will throw some in the local pond/lake.Introducing non-native species in a closed freshwater environment is risky.

But again as I said in my original post so far there have been no problems where these baitfish have been used.I'm neither for or against there use,I'm just saying caution is needed.


Btw what's up with quote function?That don't look right.

[Krispy]

Bunker
Scup
cunner
sea bass
shad
mummi
eel
sea robin
snapper

[JohnR]

Originally Posted by basswipe

Btw what's up with quote function?That don't look right.

You missed a "/" on the last quote box...