Waterboarding

[MarshCappa]

Take a look at this article. It would be too bad if the CIA isn't given the latitude to keep up these practices. I'm all for it!


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30302830/

[EarnedStripes44]

I wouldnt worry about the CIA. But the authors of the legal rationalization- I would imagine they are sweating.

[spence]

Originally Posted by EarnedStripes44

I wouldnt worry about the CIA. But the authors of the legal rationalization- I would imagine they are sweating.

Why? Considering these people have broken our laws, why should we be bound by any laws in return?

Sometimes two wrongs do make a right, 9/11 changed everything

-spence

[GattaFish]

Originally Posted by spence

Why? Considering these people have broken our laws, why should we be bound by any laws in return?

Sometimes two wrongs do make a right, 9/11 changed everything

-spence

I totally agree with this,,,,, This country better toughen up because the people who want to hurt us play on our softness,,,,

It is amazing to me how fast people have forgotten what terrorists and Islamic militants did to innocent Americans when they kidnapped them,,,,

[spence]

Originally Posted by GattaFish

It is amazing to me how fast people have forgotten what terrorists and Islamic militants did to innocent Americans when they kidnapped them,,,,

They cut their heads off.

Makes me think we should just cut the detainees heads off in response. Now that would get them talking.

-spence

[EarnedStripes44]

Originally Posted by spence

Why? Considering these people have broken our laws, why should we be bound by any laws in return?


-spence

Its a dangerous precedent.

I only hope Obama is playing chess....

[MarshCappa]

Have you taken a look at the Max security prison these guys go too? It's a 4 star hotel compared to where these terrorists live. A complete joke. I have trouble with this big time.

[EarnedStripes44]

Originally Posted by MarshCappa

Have you taken a look at the Max security prison these guys go too? It's a 4 star hotel compared to where these terrorists live. A complete joke. I have trouble with this big time.

I dont know that western living standards are something terrorist are particularly concerned about. But 23.5 hrs in a cell for years on end is no weekend at Bernies.

[Brian L]

Damn.. I thought this was a surfing thread..

[JohnnyD]

Originally Posted by MarshCappa

Take a look at this article. It would be too bad if the CIA isn't given the latitude to keep up these practices. I'm all for it!

It's great. Aside from the fact that past intelligence officers have declared that no credible or useful evidence has ever been acquired through the techniques.

So yeah, let's continue to torture people even though previous experiences have shown them as an ineffective and unneeded practice.

[MarshCappa]

Originally Posted by JohnnyD

It's great. Aside from the fact that past intelligence officers have declared that no credible or useful evidence has ever been acquired through the techniques.

So yeah, let's continue to torture people even though previous experiences have shown them as an ineffective and unneeded practice.

I don't usually go off on these rants but being ex-military with a top level security clearance I had access to some sensitive stuff. It's too bad these documents got leaked out. I don't care if we got little or no information from these techniques. If it made them feel like they were going to die then good. They should suffer. Too many innocent hard working families are missing loved ones because of their jealousy of our freedoms and way of life.

[spence]

Originally Posted by MarshCappa

I don't usually go off on these rants but being ex-military with a top level security clearance I had access to some sensitive stuff. It's too bad these documents got leaked out. I don't care if we got little or no information from these techniques. If it made them feel like they were going to die then good. They should suffer. Too many innocent hard working families are missing loved ones because of their jealousy of our freedoms and way of life.

Yep, and they should realease the video so we can all enjoy the suffering.

-spence

[Nebe]

Originally Posted by MarshCappa

Too many innocent hard working families are missing loved ones because of their jealousy of our freedoms and way of life.

Are you one of those people who think 9/11 happened over jealousy??

[MarshCappa]

Oil, religion, or whatever else caused 9/11, the fact is they committed an act that made an impact on many innocent people. I guess I'm not as smart as you to know the exact reasons why 9/11 happened. I don't know how you could laugh at any of this. All bets off with 9/11. I don't know why I got started on this thread. Too much coffee, pissed about the economy, and then I read that people who killed Americans and if they were free would kill more are being considered torture victims. Sore spot with me and it's personal. Think I'll leave this forum for awhile and cool down.

[spence]

Originally Posted by MarshCappa

Oil, religion, or whatever else caused 9/11, the fact is they committed an act that made an impact on many innocent people. I guess I'm not as smart as you to know the exact reasons why 9/11 happened.

Based on everything I've learned, in a nutshell...

Al Qaeda seeks to overthrow the Saudi government and establish what they feel is an Islamic government that's more true to the Koran instead of a corrput Saudi monarchy.

We're simply standing in their way, and they feel our economy is our underbelly. Hence the attack on the WTC 9/11.

The "they hate us for our freedoms" line is a bunch of crap.

All bets off with 9/11.

Well, no. The biggest gift we could give to terrorists is to cast aside our core values in response to their threat. This, more than anything, proves to the Islamic world that our system is just as flawed as the European and Socialist systems and dictatorships that bin Laden argues have failed muslims around the world.

-spence

[JohnnyD]

Originally Posted by MarshCappa

I don't usually go off on these rants but being ex-military with a top level security clearance I had access to some sensitive stuff. It's too bad these documents got leaked out. I don't care if we got little or no information from these techniques. If it made them feel like they were going to die then good. They should suffer. Too many innocent hard working families are missing loved ones because of their jealousy of our freedoms and way of life.

Too bad the documents got leaked out?

Because the US public shouldn't know that the government tortures people, in the name of saving lives. Yet, those who have been tortured never had any useful information. You're out of your mind.

If the torturing had yielded useful evidence, then you'd be cheering about the documents being released.

Also, the documents weren't "leaked out". They were released.

I don't think they're 'jealous of our freedoms'. I think they're pissed that we effed around in their own lands. Let's not forget that the United States used to have Bin Laden on their payroll during the 1980's Afghan wars.

[Cool Beans]

After speaking about this with several Marine officers I know, about things like this, almost to a man they told me that this only proves the point that we shouldn't take prisoners. If they are caught in a combat zone, armed and have shot at US forces or their allies, they just get shot. Most of the ones I spoke too, said if they would have been the guy to find Saddam, they would have shot him and sworn it looked like he was going for a weapon. If there is a chance the guy will be released to harm their brother marines, they want to shoot first.

[spence]

Originally Posted by Cool Beans

After speaking about this with several Marine officers I know, about things like this, almost to a man they told me that this only proves the point that we shouldn't take prisoners. If they are caught in a combat zone, armed and have shot at US forces or their allies, they just get shot. Most of the ones I spoke too, said if they would have been the guy to find Saddam, they would have shot him and sworn it looked like he was going for a weapon. If there is a chance the guy will be released to harm their brother marines, they want to shoot first.

On this I'd tend to agree, to a point. It has to be very muddy in an urban combat zone against insurgents where the line between enemy and local is difficult to rapidly determine. In general we should give our troops freedom here and the benefit of doubt in the context of the situation.

That being said, they still have rules and must operate within appliable laws, as messy as the business of war is. To kill someone whom you believe to be unarmed for instance, just to make it easier, is ethically wrong IMHO and a very slippery slope.

-spence

[Swimmer]

Originally Posted by spence

they still have rules and must operate within appliable laws, as messy as the business of war is. To kill someone whom you believe to be unarmed for instance, just to make it easier, is ethically wrong IMHO and a very slippery slope.

-spence

The laws of war, those four words are probably the largest oxymoron of all time.

I am not finding fault with what you said Spence, and I did cut up your post somewhat. The only law in any war from my point of view is that american soldiers come home whole and unharmed. Sorry, but even unarmed civilians could be lookouts. If that civilian is going to give away a plan or position of troops, go, be with allah, Mr. Civilian. That being said, you can't kill everyone you see, while at war.

[Cpt. Crunch]

what next? torturing murder and rape suspects?

[fishbones]

Spence is opposed to waterboarding because it brings back bad memories of getting swirlies from the tough guys in the math club back in high school. To this day, he still can't go into public restrooms unless they have locking doors.

[spence]

Originally Posted by fishbones

Spence is opposed to waterboarding because it brings back bad memories of getting swirlies from the tough guys in the math club back in high school. To this day, he still can't go into public restrooms unless they have locking doors.

Had you been in math club you'd know there were no tough guys

-spence

[fishbones]

I was implying that they were tough compared to you, Spence. Of course, if you got your entire home economics club together to take them on it would have been a real donnybrook. Is it true that you used to keep a rolling pin in your bookbag for protection?

[spence]

Originally Posted by fishbones

Is it true that you used to keep a rolling pin in your bookbag for protection?

I really didn't have much need for protection. The thugs knew if they took me out they wouldn't have a bookie.

You see, we practiced applied mathmatics

-spence

[moosh]

War is hell , I think the american people get to much info for there own good , this country has done fine in the past so dont knock it know . I have faith in our military and armed forces more than I have in the lieing back stabing polititians that bull .... there way into office. This country needs to be ruthless if its going to survive this war ....The first bomb they blow up over here youll see these bleeding heart libs begging someone to help them ...Thats a fact jack

[PaulS]

Given that many of our torture techn. were copied from China, perhaps we need to update them. Maybe (like we did w/German rocket scientists after WWII), we can find some taliban who want to cooperate or that we got to "cooperate" and let them run wild. Give them a little piano wire and some steel pipe and they should be all set. These are different times, we have to forget out morals and values b/c our enemy has none of those.

[RIJIMMY]

still better than having american's dying in their offices and work places. Better than kids waiting to be picked up from school and their parents never show.

I dont want to see anyone in any country die, but my preference will always be that its them, and not us.

[spence]

Originally Posted by RIJIMMY

still better than having american's dying in their offices and work places. Better than kids waiting to be picked up from school and their parents never show.

I dont want to see anyone in any country die, but my preference will always be that its them, and not us.

If the Middle East erupts into fire we're going to be sending a lot of our kids and parents to die outside of this country.

Hell, we've already lost 4200+ in Iraq not counting civilian contractors and another 600+ in Afghanistan. This isn't an argument that we should or should not fight, but don't these deaths and their families count?

-spence

[buckman]

Originally Posted by spence

If the Middle East erupts into fire we're going to be sending a lot of our kids and parents to die outside of this country.

Hell, we've already lost 4200+ in Iraq not counting civilian contractors and another 600+ in Afghanistan. This isn't an argument that we should or should not fight, but don't these deaths and their families count?

-spence

They sure do. They are the best and bravest this country has to offer.

However, I'm not sure we have a choice but to bring the fight to them. We never fight battles on our own soil and I would just assume we keep it that way.

[spence]

Originally Posted by buckman

However, I'm not sure we have a choice but to bring the fight to them. We never fight battles on our own soil and I would just assume we keep it that way.

We've been fortunate in that we have ideal geographic location, aside from very long borders.

To be honest I think we've grown so accustomed to the fight being "over there" that it's given (North) Americans a very different perspective on war than most every other country.

The "big picture" trap here, that many US Presidents have fallen into, and that our Founding Fathers warned of, is the continued extension of US force around the world.

The fall of the British Empire is a good lesson in that we can't just assume we can fight all our battles on TV. Perhaps we need to be more selective as to where and when we apply power.

-spence