Almost didn't post this

[Hooper]

because conspiracy theories have become annoying, but I would be interested to hear comment on it. I got this as an email forward from a guy I served in the Army with....

http://www.freedomunderground.org/me...entagon121.swf

[likwid]

This recently popped up on another forum, someone I know that works in DC was right there infront of the Pentagon when it happened and SAW the damn plane with his own eyes.

He happened to have caught it on its final approach to the Pentagon so he had a (relatively) good long look at it.

[spence]

What a creepy video, I notice they didn't explain what happened to the people who were on the flight

-spence

[RIJIMMY]

That is interesting. But , I never saw any plan wrekage at the WTC either. This plane was going full speed into a building, I think it would have disintegrated, but what do I know.
Someone did a cool job putting that together. Where do they get the time?

[likwid]

http://www.snopes.com/rumors/pentagon.htm

here's the pictures the person i spoke of took:

http://criticalthrash.com/terror/crashthumbnails.html

[KLMulder]

Ever put a pop can in a fire? Where's the can? it must have never been there. Truth is aluminum burns. As for the people on the plane, well we turn to dust to when burned. There are still people unaccounted for from the WTC in NY, and I do not recall seeing anything left that resembled a plane from there.

[Nebe]

I'm not surprised at all. I dont like conspiracy stories either, but I'll share something I've known about since sept 11th. Iwont name any names, but a good friend of mine has a father who is a retired Admiral in the Navy. His dad has been retired a while and hadnt heard squat from the navy in about a year and on sept 9th he got a call from Someone high up on the ladder and said "admiral X, something big is going to happen on the 11th and we need you at NORAD asap, please tell only your family and remember, this is a training exercise" So keep in Mind admiral X has never been to NORAD before and is totally baffled as to why they would want him there.

i'm sorry i sound like such a freak about how much i distrust bush, but when i heard this story from my friend that night I can tell you that I smelt a skunk.
yes I was saddened and scared for the people that died but i was horrified that the government knew this was going to happen... This got me really thinking about why the government wouls let this happen and i stumbled upon the plans that some of the 'neo-conservates' had for a new world order'.. The fact of the matter is that many fo the high rankng republicans have huge stakes in corperations who's main business is war, either weapons contracts or rebuilding... so wouldnt it make sense that these people would want a war?? they've packaaged this war so perfectly to keep the americans scared and blind it is pathetic. Do you think the republicans want peace?? why would they? then the american people would focus on domestic issues and everyone knows repubicans always loose when it comes to domistic issues....

anyway, i'm not surprised at all... all of you can say this is bogus, and us liberals aare whacked, but the truth is out there... people can hide behind thier american flags adn bomb the crap out of muslims like true cowards, but remember.... if there was peace in this world Bush and company would be in big trouble....

good day

[Nebe]

i think i need to sleep.. i'm sounding crazy, but that story i tell of the admiral is 100% true.

the wreckage of the planes at the WTC was substancial BTW... engines, wheels, seats... all over the roads underneath the towers

[KLMulder]

Yes the fact's say that we did know something might happen on the 11th, what no one knew. We also had intel about the WTC being bombed under Clinton, and do you remember when we sent a missile into the Chinese embassy under Clintons watch? Intel said it was an embassy but they hit it anyway. Maybe that was part of the deal in witch Clinton gave our missile teck to China? You talk about the NWO allot but I would like to here about the Lib's moving us closer and closer to a socialist country. Don't worry the government will take care of all your need's. We will make your choices for you don't worry about anything.

[Nebe]

Originally posted by KLMulder
You talk about the NWO allot but I would like to here about the Lib's moving us closer and closer to a socialist country. Don't worry the government will take care of all your need's. We will make your choices for you don't worry about anything.

well... in 30 years when theres no social security, no medicare and the country is broke becuse of the tax cuts that are going on today, remember that most people are acting on the "what feels good today, is more important than what happens tomorrow" approach.

Right now the government is spending $$$ like a college freshman with daddies credit card. whos going to pay for the national debt???

[spence]

Originally posted by KLMulder
You talk about the NWO allot but I would like to here about the Lib's moving us closer and closer to a socialist country. Don't worry the government will take care of all your need's. We will make your choices for you don't worry about anything.

KL, you need to draw a line between mainstream democrats and the real liberals. Most democrats don't want government telling you and me what to do.

Capitolisim is great at generating wealth, but not at distributing it because people are generally pretty greedy. Take a look at the massive bonuses and raises most corporate executives gave themselves while they were firing millions of regular workers the past few years...it's all the proof you need.

To counter this we already have a progressive tax system, which is wealth redistribution. If we didn't, government programs to subsidise the middle class wouldn't exist.

It's already shrinking as more wealth is consolidated in the hands of the very rich. You don't have to be a socialist to understand the good that some government interaction can make.

-spence

[Nebe]

I also want to point out that kerry is not planning on raising the taxes on people who make under 200grand like alot of republicans are saying...

I am amazed at how many people keep saying to me "vote for Kerry, he's going to raise your income taxes!"..... i wish I made 2oo large a year... i'd happily pay taxes on it

[KLMulder]

Personally as far as tax's go If I were king I would do away with income tax, IMHO a flat sales tax on everything would be a much better system. Do away with the IRS as we know it, all they would have to do is make sure sales tax is paid, they already do that so it should be no big deal there. Social Security, stuff it let me out, If some one wants it let them pay into it if they want but I want out. I should be allowed to be responsible for myself. What ever happened to that concept? I'm fat so I file a suit against McD's. NO NO NO It's just not right.

P.S. Let me know if you wan't to hook up again Spence, Hopefully the condition's will be better next time.

KL

[Iwannakeeper]

sorry to hi-jack (excuse the pun - it is not intended) this thread.

Spence, am I to understand you are for wealth or income redistribtion. If that is true, than I would have to think you are left wing liberal, not a moderate.

Welth or income redistribution is the cornerstone of solcialistic, (communistic) government.

Take money out of my pocket, because I spent my money getting educated and my time working hard, to give it to someone who decided they better buckle down a little too late in the game...no thanks.

[Iwannakeeper]

I am with Mulder - I would opt out of Social Security if it were an option.

And if there needs to be an income tax, how about a flat 10% across the board.

-IWK

[Navy Chief]

I was getting ready to jack you guys up.

But I think I'll take the high road and stay out of this.

[spence]

Take a swing Chief

Regarding wealth redistribution. The point is that it's not some socialist idea, in fact it's what we do today, and if we didn't our government wouldn't have enough money to pay for important things like gas for the Navy Chief's ship.

I'd love to opt out of Social Security as well, but if we all did the system would go bankrupt in a heartbeat.

-spence

[Navy Chief]

Okay Spence.

First:

You guys are saying that 9/11 was some kind of conspiracy. Come on, so the entire goverment, Republicans and Democrats all are backing this conspiracy. Nothing came out about that during the congressional investigations. So right that off as a bogus thought / theory.

Second:

Wealth Redistribution ????? That was tried for 40 something years by the country formally known as the USSR. It's working well in China, don't you think. Winston Churchill said "democracy is the best form of goverment that hasn't failed yet."

You know, somethings in our country really aggravate me. Salaries for pro athletes. Explain to me, why someone that is 3rd string offensive lineman for a pro football team makes more money than a High School teacher. Which is more important to our society? HMO's should be blown up completely. All lawyers deserve to die a painfull death.

We all know that some guys have way to much money. Bill Gates could, by himself, reform Social Security. But if I was Bill Gates, I would tell you to shut up and invent something so life changing that folks can't live without it.

Should we change this system of ours. Hell no. It's the American way. Think about how many men and women died just so you can complain about stuff like this. In Iraq, under Saddam Hussien, you would be man-raped, beaten, shot, beaten somemore, then thrown in a mass grave for the things you have been saying about the goverment.

We are a blessed country. Life overseas is not nearly so free.

Okay, I'm done.

[spence]

Chief, I think only Eben believes the potential for a 9/11 conspiracy, the rest of us are a bit more level headed. Don't blame it on Eben though, I've been to his house

Regarding wealth redistribution. Read everything I'm saying again, it's not that radical. It's silly to demonize an idea that keeps our country running.

And we completely agree on the salaries of pro athletes.

-spence

[Nebe]

(this is eben after a nap)

Hey all i'm saying is that Someone knew something was going to happen. They knew it was planes and they knew it was going ot happen on the 11th.
I also believe that Bush, Cheney and many of his policy makers have alot to gain when we're at war... we buy more bombs, oil prices go up... thats obvious. Do i think that they knew who was going to fly those planes into the towers or where they lived... maybe... we'll never know.
you cant argue that the Iraqi war was thought up long before bush came to office... 9/11 was just the perfect excuse to implement it.

[Navy Chief]

I agree that our tax system needs to be revamped.
So does George W.

[mrmacey]

[Navy Chief]

Eben

I don't know if this has anything to do with your friends father the Admiral or not, but around that time the military was conducting a nationwide "Battle experiment". The military has been working for a long time with joint operations. The exercise had to do with that and included all services. Very extensive stuff.
When military guys retire, we are not done. We get placed on "Fleet Reserve" and can get recalled at anytime. It's the price that we pay for our retirement check. It could be, that this Admiral had a particular expertise that was need for this exercise. When the attacks occured on 9/11 this exercise was cancelled. Just for your info, the military has been running terrorist attack drills for a long time and the attack on the USS Cole changed instantly the way your Navy does business.

[Nebe]

Chief that is totally possible. I was going to call him tonight and ask about that day and what his father told him, but then I got to thinking and I decided not to. I have a tendancy to really get worked up about things when I feel that they arent going the way i feel they should... Perhaps I'm a control freak, I dunno..

anyway, I'm going to hang my guns up for a while.. stop watching c-span, stop watching the news (or at least cut way back) and pay more attention to my little kiddo... he's so cute and cuddly it kills me and while I can worry my life away thinking about everything that is wrong in this world, I can also focus on my little boy. Who knows, if I bring him up right, he might just be the person who makes this world a better place and not the one who puts greed before common sence....

[JohnR]

Required Reading - The 911 Commision's Report. Not the Cliff notes in Newsweek - R.T.F.B.

This conspiracy theory, while entertaining if it had been based on fictional events, is a load of crap. Too many GOOD people at the service branches, FBI, DOD, NSA, et al. People that would in no way stand for sitting on something like this.

I'm not a W fan at all and I'm waiting for the debates to make up my mind (anyone want a write in campaing for McCain??). I can't see how someone could seriously propose and PM a project like sending a missle thru the walls at the Pentagon. Toooo many people to be involved to make it happen.

Hey Navy Chief - what are those two short stout & boxy high bridged boats across from the carriers??

[Navy Chief]

Johnr

That's one really big ship. It's a Military Sealift fast support ship. It carries Army/Marine Tanks and Airplanes and stuff. Run by a civilian crew of merchants.

The black hulled ships are Coast Guard buoy tenders.


Eben

Kids are cool, wait until he gets mobile. They're faster than Bluefish.

[Mike P]

I'm sure those chaps at that underground site are nice guys and all, but they don't know jack about aviation.

Most of the wreckage pix they have there are of planes that crashed while landing. They hit wings level, just a tad short of where they were supposed to land. Two shots I recognize are Delta 191 from 1985 at DFW (large shot of the burned out cabin) and a British Midlands 737 (burned outline of plane on the ground). A few passengers actually walked away from those crashes.

When a largeplane traveling 400+ mph hits an unmoveable object, the only wreckage you're going to be able to recognize as part of an airplane are the engines and parts of the landing gear. The wings don't "shear off" on impact, they disintegrate. Most of the fuselage and passengers disintegrated as the plane passed thru the several interconnected "rings" of the Pentagon. There are 5 or 6 "rings" of that building, and I think I read somewhere that the damage extended all the way thru to the E ring. A fully fueled 757 weighs over 200,000 lbs, even with a light passenger load. A 12 seater commuter plane weighs, at best, 1/10th of that. The only way a small commuter plane will ever see 400 mph is in a vertical dive, never in level flight. The power of an impact is a function of both the mass and velocity of the projectile. A small commuter plane wouldn't penetrate all that far into the Pentagon--the mass and velocity just aren't there.

[JohnR]

Chief - the big one is one of those Roll On / Roll Offs, right?

Thought the 2 ships next to the Ro/Ro were white hulled. Tough to look when going over the bridge

[Nebe]

there's some boats there that look like they are for training that have blacked out bridges.. they look real funny but i've seen them cruising around the bay. I guess it might be for NAV instument training...(no windows on the bridge) Kind of like flying blind

[Navy Chief]

JohnR
Yea, it's a RO-RO

Eben
I don't know what's up with those windows, I guess it's for radar nav / low visibility training.