Gun Legislation

[JohnR]

Originally Posted by Got Stripers

So D-Barr suggested I highjacked my own thread, so let’s move it to one dedicated to the discussion. I guess the first question I have is how many here even feel this country has a serious gun problem?

I’d also be curious how many feel it is irresponsible for Mitch to not bring the House passed legislation to the floor for a vote. I don’t have the complete legislation, but I haven’t heard of anything in it that would cause the usual 2A argument.

I would also wonder why this administration killed all funding to research gun violence, is there something they don’t want the public to know?

Tied to the gun problem might be the question, why we don’t have laws to even recognize domestic terrorism?

Eventually it will go to John’s question, why should the sane gun owner be prevented from buying a semi automatic rifle. If that’s a line the senate will never cross, I’d like to see it illegal to have these large capacity magazines.

Here is the issue: Overall Gun related deaths are down near 40% since the peak in the mid 90s (though rising again). The outliers of this are mass shootings and increased inner city violence in some places. Mental Health / Drugs and Gangs / Drugs.

The Right, Some moderate & Independents, and those that believe in the Constitution/2A believe the right to bear arms is absolute and that Self Defense is a Basic Right. Several courts from District to Supreme (Heller) have confirmed this.

The Left, Some moderate & Independents, (I would grant that far less on Left believe in the Constitution) and those that believe in legislating to a better society (rights be damned).

Dems believe that they can banish "Assault Weapons" and that this would do a lot of good. A lot of Dem legislators & Talking Heads that do not know how a firearm operates have done this massive dis/misinformation campaign and made a lot of good people out to be bad people. "You are in the NRA, you must be a racist". They put a lot of pressure on this and this basically target millions of good law abiding citizens that have done nothing wrong. Wayne says nobody wants to take your guns but whether he is lying, naive, or foolish, I just don't know.

Then these same Dems complain that the Reps and Pro 2A won't work with them. Who would want to work with a Party that wants to take away your rights, against your core beliefs in the value of Self Protection, that don't know how a firearm operates, that really does not address the core problem or Mental Health?

Circle back to the top, the problem in Mass Shootings is usually mental health ( I linked this yesterday from a Renowned Never Trumper - bet most of you did not read it) and how that allows outside influences to channel these "Lost Boys". The El Paso guy might have been set off by some 8Chan/Trump and the Ohio guy was apparently and Antifascist hard left awkward incel - both lost boys with different paths to get where they did. Both would have been top candidates for Red Flag laws. MOST of the Mass Shooters over the past 20 years been candidates for Red Flag laws.

We already have very stringent background laws and checks. I cannot purchase a firearm over the counter or privately without having a legal background check from NICS (National Instant criminal Background Check System).

You cannot legally buy an AR15 ANYWHERE Without a Background Check.
You cannot legally buy an AR15 ANYWHERE Without a Background Check.
You cannot legally buy an AR15 ANYWHERE Without a Background Check.
You cannot legally buy an AR15 ANYWHERE Without a Background Check.
Back to the next line same as the first line.

Some states have blocked what data can be submitted to NICS, particularly Mental Health records - items that would be a disqualification for passing an NICS check. Other state and Federal systems have screwed up data transfer which have failed to prevent some people with disqualifying items on their record from causing a NICS check fail. This has been pointed out in the past as allowing people that would have failed a NCIS Check to get firearms. The System Failed. The existing laws were sufficient, the application was not.

So where do we start? IMO we need Red Flag laws that can identify (with just cause) these Lanzas, Roofs, Johnsons, Cruz types that all were on someone's radar. We need to do it in a way that protects their individual rights (due process) and if deemed a risk, prevented from Firearm access and gotten help.

We don't penalize the Law Abiding Citizen.
We don't penalize the Law Abiding Citizen.
We don't penalize the Law Abiding Citizen.
We don't penalize the Law Abiding Citizen.


How do we help the Urban Violence, where most of the tragedy to our our kids happens? No idea.

[Pete F.]

Originally Posted by JohnR

Circle back to the top, the problem in Mass Shootings is usually mental health ( I linked this yesterday from a Renowned Never Trumper - bet most of you did not read it) and how that allows outside influences to channel these "Lost Boys". The El Paso guy might have been set off by some 8Chan/Trump and the Ohio guy was apparently and Antifascist hard left awkward incel - both lost boys with different paths to get where they did. Both would have been top candidates for Red Flag laws. MOST of the Mass Shooters over the past 20 years been candidates for Red Flag laws.

At no place in that oped does Tom Nichols say that mental health has anything to do with it. In fact, those words are not in that article. Lost Boys are an issue, but for some reason largely in this country.

WASHINGTON — Following is the statement of Arthur C. Evans Jr., PhD, CEO of the American Psychological Association, in reaction to President Trump’s statements today regarding gun violence and mental illness:

“Blaming mental illness for the gun violence in our country is simplistic and inaccurate and goes against the scientific evidence currently available.

“The United States is a global outlier when it comes to horrific headlines like the ones that consumed us all weekend. Although the United States makes up less than 5% of the world’s population, we are home to 31% of all mass shooters globally, according to a CNN analysis. This difference is not explained by the rate of mental illness in the U.S.

[JohnR]

Originally Posted by Pete F.

At no place in that oped does Tom Nichols say that mental health has anything to do with it. In fact, those words are not in that article. Lost Boys are an issue, but for some reason largely in this country.

WASHINGTON — Following is the statement of Arthur C. Evans Jr., PhD, CEO of the American Psychological Association, in reaction to President Trump’s statements today regarding gun violence and mental illness:

“Blaming mental illness for the gun violence in our country is simplistic and inaccurate and goes against the scientific evidence currently available.

“The United States is a global outlier when it comes to horrific headlines like the ones that consumed us all weekend. Although the United States makes up less than 5% of the world’s population, we are home to 31% of all mass shooters globally, according to a CNN analysis. This difference is not explained by the rate of mental illness in the U.S.

Issue adjusting to the world, not growing up, visions of heroism as adults, sure is some symptoms of mental illness. Now look at Lanza, Roof, Johnson, Cruz, and they all have Mental Illnesses, right? Delusional personalities, threats of shooting places and people up, a history of violence - those are not indicative mental illnesses?

[Pete F.]

Originally Posted by JohnR

Issue adjusting to the world, not growing up, visions of heroism as adults, sure is some symptoms of mental illness. Now look at Lanza, Roof, Johnson, Cruz, and they all have Mental Illnesses, right? Delusional personalities, threats of shooting places and people up, a history of violence - those are not indicative mental illnesses?

I think the APA has valid reasons for not agreeing with your diagnosis.
However they did not say do nothing.
I didn't post the entire statement because I didn't want to drag this tread down the Trump rabbithole.
But I will.
Blaming mental illness for gun violence is simplistic, inaccurate — and prevents us from solving the problem

WASHINGTON — Following is the statement of Arthur C. Evans Jr., PhD, CEO of the American Psychological Association, in reaction to President Trump’s statements today regarding gun violence and mental illness:

“Blaming mental illness for the gun violence in our country is simplistic and inaccurate and goes against the scientific evidence currently available.

“The United States is a global outlier when it comes to horrific headlines like the ones that consumed us all weekend. Although the United States makes up less than 5% of the world’s population, we are home to 31% of all mass shooters globally, according to a CNN analysis. This difference is not explained by the rate of mental illness in the U.S.

“The one stark difference? Access to guns.

“Americans own nearly half of the estimated 650 million civilian-owned guns in the world. Access to this final, fatal tool means more deaths that occur more quickly, whether in a mass shooting or in someone’s own home.

“As we psychological scientists have said repeatedly, the overwhelming majority of people with mental illness are not violent. And there is no single personality profile that can reliably predict who will resort to gun violence. Based on the research, we know only that a history of violence is the single best predictor of who will commit future violence. And access to more guns, and deadlier guns, means more lives lost.

“Based on the psychological science, we know some of the steps we need to take. We need to limit civilians’ access to assault weapons and high-capacity magazines. We need to institute universal background checks. And we should institute red flag laws that remove guns from people who are at high risk of committing violent acts.

“And although the president called on the nation to do a ‘better job of identifying and acting on early warning signs,’ that requires research to ensure we are making decisions based on data, not prejudices and fear.

“We agree with the president’s call to strengthen background checks. But this falls woefully short of what is needed. We must take a comprehensive public health approach and provide dedicated federal funding to agencies, including the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention and the National Institutes of Health, to better understand the causes, contributing factors and solutions to gun violence.

“The president clearly said that it is time to stop the hateful rhetoric that is infecting the public discourse. We ask that he use his powerful position to model that behavior. And we ask that the federal government support the research needed to better understand the causes of bigotry and hate, and their association to violence, so that we may devise evidence-based solutions.”