Rapid Reduction Layouts - Page 2 - Striper Talk Striped Bass Fishing, Surfcasting, Boating

Fergal · 03-15-2017, 06:17 PM

FINALLY got most of the guides today, at least the ones to do a kl25-12-8.... I was mildly concerned that the 25 wouldn't work but the top of the ring as well as the bottom are higher than a kw30. I thought it would be lower and not work. So sunday is the day to test cast and hopefully get it to work.

the sent me the wrong guide(kw) - order a 30, received a 30L...

pbadad · 03-15-2017, 09:36 PM

I laid out the KLH25, 12 8M. Reel shaft to choke KT 8 @ 52". Line from top guides put the KL25H 15.5" from the 12 and the 8M 8.5". I gonna pull the 12 back to create a parabolic bend in line and test both ways. I don't like the long space in the second transition guide to help reduce line coils and chatter. I'm using a VR 150 reel.

Guppy · 03-16-2017, 05:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fergal

FINALLY got most of the guides today, at least the ones to do a kl25-12-8.... I was mildly concerned that the 25 wouldn't work but the top of the ring as well as the bottom are higher than a kw30. I thought it would be lower and not work. So sunday is the day to test cast and hopefully get it to work.

the sent me the wrong guide(kw) - order a 30, received a 30L...

Picked up a Gosa 6K to go with a GSB1201m yesterday, phyced

Mud hole's sight has been down, looking at Getbit....

Thinking KR with KW'S,,, I'm tough on rods

Good info above here, thanks

http://anglersresource.net/Portals/a...eightchart.pdf

Fergal · 03-18-2017, 06:42 AM

tomorrow's snow is going to put a damper on things, looking at tues now for test casting. maybe i can get this thing done for the fall at this point...

pbadad · 03-18-2017, 02:00 PM

Don't feel bad Drew, I have 3 to test and thankfully I can build the butts and buttwrap waiting for spring. Geez Louise this spring week will still be COLD!!!

Fergal · 03-19-2017, 07:35 AM

probably going to give it a try later today. i'd like to get this darn thing started.

Fergal · 03-19-2017, 03:41 PM

i was able to get some casting in today. i tried a couple of methods for the spacing and didn't like any of them. i basically put the guides where i thought they should go.

the blank is a odm nex1, 11', 3/4-4oz. reel was a vsx200. the layout was kl25h-12h-8m-kt8(x5)-tip. first guide was ~34" from the reel. i have to say i was very impressed. i will play with it some more tuesday but i don't see me making any changes to it. i know it's only a little test casting and i haven't used the rod yet but this may be a game changer for me. i can't see me building a rod any other way going forward.

my most recent builds have been kw30-25-20-12-10/8. this build replaces 30-25-20-12 with 25-12-8, dropping a 30 & 20 and adding in an 8m. i haven't checked the weights but that's a pretty decent savings.

pbadad · 03-19-2017, 07:36 PM

You say replace with KW25 K12 K8M. ? Use the 25 on small spool reels but haven't on 200-250reels. I do have a breach way honey rod which I built awhile back for conventional and spin. MN30. Casted great w/ fire line with a Mitchell 302. Looks odd.

Fergal · 03-19-2017, 07:49 PM

i meant my most recent builds have all been kw30-25-20 and this one uses fewer of the larger size guides for seemingly the same performance. i didn't think that the 25-12-8 was going to work very well on an 11' rod with a 200 size reel. i have to play around with it a little more but i don't think i'm going to change much.

i took some slow-mo video with my iphone. it was kind of hard to make a cast, grab the phone, and then line up with the light correctly but on the video that i got, i couldn't see any issues with the line going thru the guides.

pbadad · 03-20-2017, 07:14 AM

Kind of a hat trick, filming it alone.LOL

Fergal · 03-20-2017, 07:21 PM

yeah, kind of a pain in the ass. i was looking at the set up again, the old COF in me has a hard time looking at the ring sizes but i know what i saw with test casting at it worked very well. i'm going to start wrapping tomorrow. with the single foots, s/b real fast to get it done. underwraps s/b on and coat of finish tomorrow, guides s/b done by sunday night including 1-2 coats of finish. it s/b by next tuesday i think.

pbadad · 03-21-2017, 05:51 AM

Drew using a lock wrap?

Fergal · 03-21-2017, 07:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pbadad

Drew using a lock wrap?

no, just plain wrap. i've never had a guide pull out before.

Guppy · 03-21-2017, 04:45 PM

I no seasoned rod builder but for my money that lock wrap has less strength than convench...
IMHO

Fergal · 03-21-2017, 07:24 PM

underwraps on tonight. i weighed the guides - the kl25-12-8m-8kt(5)-tip and the alternative, kw30-25-20-12-8(x4)-tip. pics are below. the kl set-up is 37% lighter vs the kw.

pbadad · 03-21-2017, 07:28 PM

The lock wrap is a conventional wrap. It just encapsulates the guide frame with 3 wraps of thread then coated. I did an experiment and bent the guide to sh*t while the non lock eventually pulled out. One way to sustain a guide with a non lock wrap is when you epoxy the wrap wipe the frame with brush as it spin nd the epoxy will form a neat gusset up against the front of guide frame. Larger KT guides where the lock wrap gets bunchy looking, the gusset accomplishes the extra hold.

Yudi · 03-22-2017, 07:13 AM

I put in locking wraps when I did mine. It was pretty straightforward, I'm not sure why you wouldn't do this. I guess from a 'looks' perspective, you have to get the timing down as to when to start the lock wraps so that when you finish wrap over them you don't climb the fillet too much. I wasn't worried about that too much, so just wrapping around the guide shank itself was pretty simple. My entire wrap was done by hand as well, so the building speed was the same regardless. It seems like a good idea to do. Are there any negatives, besides cosmetic issues?

I'm really interested to see how this all works out for you. For my build, it's a light duty and fair weather bay rod....I'm not worried about single foot guides. However, in the surf and when things get snotty they still worry me. I've bent double foot guides before and sheared off single foot guides. These single foot guides are tall and long which is quite a lever arm.

The other thing I'm worried about, perhaps needlessly, is whether this rapid choke is really peeky, or highly finnessed. By that I mean, it may perform well and better even when all conditions are optimal, but with variations in conditions it may perform less well. So higher performance, but less versatility. I am interested to see if problems develop in high winds, cross winds, and shifting winds. I'm also interested to see what happens if you don't get your line stacked well on the reel and have it catch a bit, what will happen. Water logging, ice crystal, etc.

But, I'm very impressed by what it does for the rod. You can pull that stripper in closer and have more runners which is really nice for power and makes the rod much crisper in the tip. You have a lot of options on the static loading.

pbadad · 03-22-2017, 12:17 PM

With the rapid choke I have on my 10' there's a total of 10 guides, 3 reduction and 7 runners/choke. Not a down and dirty rock hopper rod but for beach fishing. I be interested once I get out to cast the set up and when it goes into use "in the real world".

Fergal · 03-22-2017, 08:08 PM

i just see no reason to use a locking wrap based on my past experiences. i've been building rods for 30 years at this point, many with single foots and i've never had a single issue with a plain'ol wrap. imho, it's just extra work for something that's isn't all that useful. that doesn't mean something can't happen, doesn't mean it won't, just that it hasn't happened to me to warrant doing anything different.

i'm not too worried about the single foot guides while fishing. the only time that i've had an issue with a guide breaking or getting damaged is when i've fallen on the rocks with a rod. if i take a header, single/double - it probably won't matter too much at that point.... the biggest risk will be in/out of the truck and the ceiling racks in the garage. i have a tacoma with a cap, i do have a rack up top but any extra rods are always inside. the risk will be banging them around then.

i'm also curious to see how it will work in the real world. 30-45 minutes test casting (while positive) doesn't mean a heck of a lot. i will also say, this rod probably isn't going to be the goto when its crappy so i'm not too concerned about various crosswinds, etc. i did throw it the other day with the wind (there was a lot) and i did not notice any issues. i did spend more time out of the wind but that was mainly trying to video it to see if i had any issues with the line. i couldn't see anything significant (fwiw the slo-mo camera on the iphone was very helpful. with a second person i probably would've gotten some good video.)

this build kind of went the opposite with guides and location. the stripper is out a little farther than typical and i have 1 less guide vs previous 11' (my 1327 has 9 as does the 1321). this one has 8.

i should get the guides on sat and hopefully the first coat of finish as well. if i'm lucky i will finish sunday, worst case on tues on my day off. a few days for a final cure then maybe play around with it next weekend.

Fergal · 03-24-2017, 09:27 PM

x-flock on, ramp done. guides and first coat s/b on tomorrow.

Fergal · 03-26-2017, 02:54 PM

getting there

Fergal · 03-26-2017, 02:55 PM

few more

Fergal · 03-26-2017, 02:55 PM

last for now

pbadad · 03-26-2017, 06:58 PM

Good looking. Started to wrap my own rod. Test cast today. Line went through like water from a hose. Deceiving layout look. Like you Drew it was a challenge to convince myself this actually casts. Ended up with the static layout which I painstakingly redid umpteen times on the bench. No noise , slap and line went straight through guides w/o a curl. This was with Suffix braid. Wrapped a few guides tonight. One thing for sure, the rod tip weight is nil.

Fergal · 03-27-2017, 07:09 PM

it (the layout) still doesn't look 'right'....i probably have one more coat of finish tomorrow, then done.

Yudi · 03-31-2017, 06:33 AM

FWIW, I've tested mine out now about 5 different times on an array of different lures in weight and aerodynamic profiles over many hours now. It casts flawlessly and the rod action is fantastic for a glass rod.

I did get a 'wind knot' at one point. THat was due to using a 710 with too much braid on it and I was tossing pencils and spooks, so nothing to do with the layout. All user error with the line management. When I saw it, I could have dealt with it, but I decided to see what would happen if this happens to me at night and I don't see it. I figured its better to learn now and not while fishing. So I casted it.

Casted it and the knot stuck at the choke and bent the single foot guide. Keep in mind, that's a 6 on mine, with 6 runners behind it. It didn't pull out or crack anything and I bent it back. It wasn't a hard cast.

Just something to keep in mind, I hadn't thought about this 'failure mode' when considering the layout. I thought about whether I would pass a leader knot some, decided I wouldn't, I thought about clogging with weed and decided my rod was a light duty fair weather rod anyway and went with smaller guides, to keep it light and maximize the number of runners. But I hadn't considered an inadvertent 'wind knot'.

I figure at some point, I'll break it, and then I'll see if I can find a double foot that will work for this guide. Maybe even if the knot passed this guide the line speed would be considerably slowed down when it hit the first runner.

But overall, very happy with the way it came out. I learned a lot, had a lot of fun and realize now that epoxy work isn't easy.

pbadad · 03-31-2017, 12:32 PM

Great summary on the layout. That is a tip light layout. Obviously not a all out surf rod layout for our rocky shore fishing but clean beaches it's perfect. Oh yeh, epoxy finish takes practice and time. Many years of plugs and rod finishing, and I still learn more each time. 1201M next???

Yudi · 03-31-2017, 10:28 PM

Yup, 1201M is next. It will be NGC/hybrid with BSVLG's to reduce and transition into MN10's, in a NGC/hybrid type layout.... Once I figure out what I want to do with the handle and reel location.

The 120L is and will be my primary here in CT, but when the wind kicks up, especially in the fall migration I need something that can punch a cast better. Of course it will double for rock fields where I need to turn a fish quickly as well. Conceptually, I need something that will cover over the top side of the 1201L in ability to punch some weight and turn a fish. But since it isn't the norm. for me, I don't want the 11' for all its weight.

It must be rock hopping ready, and I will be going with a layout I know is up for the challenge with double foot guides.

I would consider re-wrapping both 120's iKR concept if double foot steel guides were offered. I do like what it does for the rod and tip weight.

Fergal · 04-01-2017, 07:44 AM

i finished the rod yesterday. going to let it sit for a few days then maybe play around with it.

regarding single footed guides and durability. i have the same concerns but they're really baseless according to my experience. in all my time fishing jetties back in nj the only time that i had any issues with any guides was when i fell on the rocks. when that happens it won't matter what guides are on the rod, so i'm not too concerned about this one and fishing it hard.

Fergal · 04-01-2017, 07:44 AM

few more