Hamas - Time for a dialogue?

[Joe]

Should the U.S. extend the policy of "no recognition, no dialogue, no aid" with respect to Hamas?

[slow eddie]

to start a dialogue with a bunch of terrorist is unthinkable. to lend 30 or so blackhawks is more in line.

[basswipe]

Originally Posted by slow eddie

to start a dialogue with a bunch of terrorist is unthinkable. to lend 30 or so blackhawks is more in line.

What slow eddie said.

Hamas should be made into hummus.

[Nebe]

Just to play the devils advocate, imagine if we were all told that we had to move off of your property and be forced to live in a large comunity and controlled like cattle??

Have any of you people taken the time to think about what the palestinian cause is about???

[afterhours]

hamas is a terrorist organization randomly attacking and killing civilians while hiding amongst civilians. these are the most cowardly of people and should be eliminated now...anyone who sanctions their actions is not much better.

[likwid]

Originally Posted by afterhours

hamas is a terrorist organization randomly attacking and killing civilians while hiding amongst civilians. these are the most cowardly of people and should be eliminated now...anyone who sanctions their actions is not much better.

And yet, much like a terrorist organization the Israeli regime is mindlessly bombing Palestine and killing hundreds of civilians.

Originally Posted by slow eddie

perhaps in 1948, after the founding of the jewish state, the other arab states had taken these people in we would not be having this debate.

Taken them in? It was forced upon them.

And lets not forget the military land grabs done my Israel.

[afterhours]

Originally Posted by likwid

And yet, much like a terrorist organization the Israeli regime is mindlessly bombing Palestine and killing hundreds of civilians.



Taken them in? It was forced upon them.

And lets not forget the military land grabs done my Israel.

you have to protect your people....the cowardly basturds hide within the populace. the israelis let it be know beforehand to the point of calling people, read palestinians, on their cell phones and warned them...

[likwid]

Originally Posted by afterhours

you have to protect your people....the cowardly basturds hide within the populace. the israelis let it be know beforehand to the point of calling people, read palestinians, on their cell phones and warned them...

Yeah because people who can barely afford food have cellphones right?

[spence]

Originally Posted by afterhours

you have to protect your people....the cowardly basturds hide within the populace. the israelis let it be know beforehand to the point of calling people, read palestinians, on their cell phones and warned them...

The IRA used to do the same thing, call in a warning before they'd blow up a pub.

This really isn't about protecting your people as much as it is about punishment. Israel isn't fighting a defined enemy, it's an insurgency of which they are partially responsible for helping to form (I'd note that you could say the exact same thing about our own "war on terror"). Any political solution will require giving something up so every so often they lash out.

Ultimately their actions will do more to build sympathy for the innocent killed and strengthen the position of Hamas who will claim to be defending them. You could say the same thing about Iraq (yea, you saw that coming).

So they level Gaza...to what end? Does anyone really think this will help keep Israel safer?

Or perhaps a better question...

What do you think is a reasonable end state for all of this? Two-state solution? Israel taking everything? Return to the 69 borders?

And remember, there are militants on both sides.

-spence

[Swimmer]

Originally Posted by likwid

And yet, much like a terrorist organization the Israeli regime is mindlessly bombing Palestine and killing hundreds of civilians.



Taken them in? It was forced upon them.

And lets not forget the military land grabs done my Israel.

The Iraeli army has been reverse 911'ing the private homes that surround buildings that are going to be bombed before they bomb them.

A war was fought and somebody lost. The losers lost thier land. Why doesn't this dialogue take place when fifty missiles a day were and are being shot into Israel by Hamas. Hamas is only using the residents in Gaza that are injured or killed in the worse possible way. Hamas mistreats and abuses thier fellow Gazans worst than the Israeli army does. The hide among them, fight among them, to turn public opinon against the Jews. Hamas, Iran, Syria are no different than the Nazi's. They want all Jews dead. At least the Jews only want to kill the people who would harm them. If we turned a blind eye to the middle east in the past the Jews would have all been killed many times over years ago.

[spence]

Originally Posted by Swimmer

The Iraeli army has been reverse 911'ing the private homes that surround buildings that are going to be bombed before they bomb them.

I had read there were some examples of this but that it wasn't widespread.

A war was fought and somebody lost. The losers lost thier land.

Gross oversimplification. The counter argument is that militant Jewish settlers have been illegally taking land with or without war for 70 years. Granted, many of these settlements have been removed, but not without International pressure and in many cases the Jewish settlers have fought even the Israeli government.

Why doesn't this dialogue take place when fifty missiles a day were and are being shot into Israel by Hamas.

Underdogs often get to play by different rules. Go outside of the US Media and the rest of the world reports on the issue with much more sympathy for the Palestenian people.

People in the Middle East also give credit to those who fight the power regardless of their means or methods. Saddam certainly milked this and Bin Laden has been an expert of manipulating these emotions to gain support for his actions rather than methods.

Hamas is only using the residents in Gaza that are injured or killed in the worse possible way. Hamas mistreats and abuses thier fellow Gazans worst than the Israeli army does. The hide among them, fight among them, to turn public opinon against the Jews.

I'm sure a lot of the people are thankful that someone is standing up for them. This isn't a traditional army holding territory, they are in and among the people because that's the only place they can be. If anything it's out of necessity.

Hamas, Iran, Syria are no different than the Nazi's. They want all Jews dead. At least the Jews only want to kill the people who would harm them. If we turned a blind eye to the middle east in the past the Jews would have all been killed many times over years ago.

Israel is more than capable of defending itsself. And I don't buy the fact that everybody is out to exterminate the Jews. Sure it's an easy political device to stoke the fires and get media attention, and this isn't to say that general anti-semitism isn't rampant among Arabs, but if this was really the case why doesn't Hamas or Iran strike at the Jews of say...New York City?

It is impossible to take a snapshot of the region and make any sense of it. This is a great dysfunction that's grown over time and both sides are to blame.

You could say the same for much of our own policy in the area. We seem to casually forget that there's history there, like things have just sprouted up overnight.

-spence

[basswipe]

Originally Posted by Nebe

Just to play the devils advocate, imagine if we were all told that we had to move off of your property and be forced to live in a large comunity and controlled like cattle??

Have any of you people taken the time to think about what the palestinian cause is about???

Lets take a little trip back in time.

Doesn't seem so long ago when the PLO was squating in Jordan and King Hussein basically said get out and Arafat and his minions said no.As the PLO was marching on Amman,who saved them,those cattle controlling dreaded Jews ya'll seem to not to like all of sudden.

Devils' advocate my ass.As the grandson of those who were slaughtered by Muslim Turks in the Armenian Genocide how do you justify playing "devils' advocate" to someone like me or for that matter my father who witnessed it first hand?YOU CAN'T!!!

Have I taken the time to think what the Palestinian "cause" is about? You obvisiously have not.How does death to Jews sound?Its what Palestinians and most of the Arab world want.

In the end the motivating factor for all the death and destruction in the Middle East is religion and at this point in time that religion would be Islam.Another 50yrs it could be scientolgy,another 50yrs after that it could be something we've never heard of.

Piece is easy to obtain...stop fighting.But as long as people take sides there will always be a side to take and that my friend equals killing and destruction.

[Nebe]

Actually i agree with everyone here.. I was thinking about the greater plight of the palestinian cause and not just Hamas..

my bad fellas..

[saltfly]

the palestinians elected these people to run their state.how many times do you get stung by a bee before you decide to knock out the nest?

[Nebe]

exactly Saltfly- its like Afghanistan electing in Al queda to run the show..

The problem with Hamas is that they were able to get a lot of much needed money from outher countries to help build infrastructure...Probably from Iran... but this had a lot of pull with the Palestinian people.

[slow eddie]

perhaps in 1948, after the founding of the jewish state, the other arab states had taken these people in we would not be having this debate.
after they take back the holy land, what's next.
we do not think like these people. never will. our way of life sticks in their craw. they will do everything in their power to bring us back to the 7th. century along with them.

[spence]

Originally Posted by slow eddie

perhaps in 1948, after the founding of the jewish state, the other arab states had taken these people in we would not be having this debate.
after they take back the holy land, what's next.
we do not think like these people. never will. our way of life sticks in their craw. they will do everything in their power to bring us back to the 7th. century along with them.

I think a little history is needed here.

Before the end of British rule Arabs and Jews lived together in relative peace. Seems that they didn't get the memo that they didn't "think alike".

The Brits (when in control) assured Palestenians they would help them create their own state, then flipped on their promise when Zionists started to lobby for Palestine as the new home of European Jews.

From what I've read, the first recorded acts of "terrorism" in the area were Jewish attacks on the British as Zionists tried to assert themselves.

Certainly there was a real problem Europe, but from an Arab perspective they were wronged and have continued to get the shaft in terms of less land and fewer rights since even before WW2.

While I wouldn't argue that surrounding Arab states have been right to attack Isreal over the years, to ignore the history of the region is foolish if we ever want to find a solution.

This is primarily a political, not religious problem...but the more people want to make it one, it will over time continue to go down this road. For all the Muslims who wish Isreal was gone for religious reasons, there's a Christian on the other side thinking along the same lines.

-spence

[Swimmer]

Originally Posted by spence

.



While I wouldn't argue that surrounding Arab states have been right to attack Isreal over the years, to ignore the history of the region is foolish if we ever want to find a solution.

This is primarily a political, not religious problem...but the more people want to make it one, it will over time continue to go down this road. For all the Muslims who wish Isreal was gone for religious reasons, there's a Christian on the other side thinking along the same lines.

-spence

But from the Jewish perspective, all they did was go home in 1948!

[spence]

Originally Posted by Swimmer

But from the Jewish perspective, all they did was go home in 1948!

Not all Jews believe in the right of return, and not all Zionists are Jewish (in spirit at least). It was really a pretty small (but very influential) group pushing to create the new state in Palestine.

But to your point, if your neighbor is evicted unfairly, he doesn't have the right to kick you out of your house just because his relatives lived there in there past. This may be over simplification, but it somewhat is the issue.

-spence

[Joe]

Most everyone thinks that there are no political, diplomatic, or economic options - only military.

There are places in this country - Dearborn, Michigan is probably the best example - where Jews and Palestinians live very closely and in peace. The major distinction here is economic, people are less likely to embrace violence and radicalism if there is economic opportunity.

[Swimmer]

It was easy for Hamas to control Gaza. They had more guns and gunmen than Fatah. If you didn't cast a vote for Hamas you received no aid.

[Swimmer]

Likwid you almost had me there with thrunting until I looked it up. Mrs. Webster said it aint a wurd. But if it was a word I would use it to describe a powerless Iranian figurehead also. I just get a little disenfranchised when people start talking/posting about the disproportionate response with the Israelis are taking with Hamas. One has to admit that if Hamas behaved then all would be much better in Gaza.

[sean curry]

I have been to Israel. Jews and Arabs do live in peace there. 24% of the Israeli population in Arab. I am not including Gaza and the West bank. They live, work, go to school together, just like here. My cousins neighbor is an Arab, and serves in the IDF (Army). For Jews service is manditory, for non Jews is is not.

The United States has been by far the largest supporter of the Palistinian people. We have given 2.4 Billion dollars in aid since 1993. No Arab country even comes close to that. We have built Schools, Hospitals, water treatment plants. We have not done everything right, but we have put our tax payer money where our mouths are. No other country has done better.

It is kind of funny that some of the Arab countries have enough extra dough to build Islands in the ocean in the shape of palm trees.......Gee, I wonder if some of your poor cousins in Gaza could use a hand???

Most Jews in Israel are just like us. 99% of my relatives are moderate. I must admit that one of my cousins and his children, are what we would call in this country, "religious nut jobs". We were all at my cousins wedding in Philly this fall. It was almost impossible to have a political conversation with them. They really belive they are the "chosen people"! I just gigilled and told them that the U.S.A. was,......just look at the last 100 years.

I asked how they viewed the U.S. and George Bush? Their anwser was very negative. I am a liberal democrat, but, he is my president, and the majority on my countryman voted for him! Yeah Right! America Sucks!!!!!!......, except when you compare it to everywhere else!!!!!

I don't know how to fix this. I wonder if anyone does? I think it boils down to hatred. I think you have to be taught from birth or while young, that all people,.... Arabs, Jews, Blacks, Whites, Asian, Hispanic, Native Peoples, Men, Woman, Etc. are equally intelligent, just, and need to be respected. Once you really believe that in your heart, the rest will be easier.

Just look at America...., We are the most ethnically and religiously deverse people in the world. We are also the strongest, most productive, most free.

Funny how that works.

sean

[Swimmer]

Nice unbiased post Sean, well-said. Thank you

[afterhours]

ditto what frank said

[stripersnipr]

Sometimes when a peoples attempt at genocide fails they lose land in the process.

[eastendlu]

Originally Posted by stripersnipr

Sometimes when a peoples attempt at genocide fails they lose land in the process.

Guess they should of claimed Germany?

[spence]

Originally Posted by stripersnipr

Sometimes when a peoples attempt at genocide fails they lose land in the process.

Genocide? And all the time I thought it was fueled primarily by rage...

Silly Otto.

Here are two scenarios:

A) Yes young Ahmed, you should strap a bomb to yourself and get on that bus because your lot in life is to kill all the Jews.

or

B) Yes young Ahmed, the Zionists did take away your fathers farmland, they do make you go through 5 checkpoints and keep you for hours just to get to school, they did detain your brother for 15 years because he was suspected of throwing rocks and they do turn a blind eye to militant Jews who want to settle in our neighborhood. You have no future but to eek out an existance on UN aid and pray you're not struck by a tank round during a peaceful demonstration. And there's nothing you can do about it, because you're powerless. Or, perhaps you're not?

Doesn't make it right, but a little understanding can go a long way.

-spence

[stripersnipr]

Originally Posted by spence

Genocide? And all the time I thought it was fueled primarily by rage...

Doesn't make it right, but a little understanding can go a long way.

-spence

Yes, Rage usually is a component to Genocide. Doesn't make it right or excuse it. Understanding does go a long way but at some point you need to come to a conclusion.

[spence]

Originally Posted by stripersnipr

Yes, Rage usually is a component to Genocide. Doesn't make it right or excuse it. Understanding does go a long way but at some point you need to come to a conclusion.

Doesn't mean you come to a wacky conclusion like it's a failed "genocide" just because you need a conclusion.

Perhaps that's your issue, you just need to think about it a little more

-spence