Israel and World War III part four

[The Dad Fisherman]

Originally Posted by stormfish

For one, Hitler who is a Jew himself, led a campaign to exterminate his own people.

From Holocaust-History.Org

Hitler's grandmother was not Jewish.

There are some rumors hinting that Hitler's grandfather was Jewish. Few, if any, of the reputable historians on the Holocaust believe that this is so. It is more likely that Hitler tried to keep the murky history of his family quite secret because there was a high incidence of insanity and feeble-mindedness in his ancestors.

Rumors die hard, though.

One of Hitler's henchmen, Hans Frank, declared during the Nuremberg Trials in 1945-46, that Hitler's grandmother had worked in the town of Graz as a servant in the home of a Jewish family named Frankenberger. He further claimed that she was seduced by the head of the household and that Hitler's grandfather was the result of that liaison.

A subsequent analysis of Frank's statement by Simon Wiesenthal disclosed that there was no evidence of any Jewish family named Frankenberger ever living in Graz. What is more, Jews had been driven out of Graz in the 15th century and had not been allowed to return until 1856, nearly twenty years after Hitler's grandfather had been born.

Hitler's grandmother's maiden name was Schickelgruber. There is considerable evidence that this family produced abnormal progeny. Examples are: one of Hitler's relatives through his mother's side committed suicide in 1920, another, Aloisha had been placed in an insane asylum, another was "feeble-minded," and yet another was retarded.

According to the article from which I am quoting this material:


"Hitler's real fear, then, was not that someone would discover that he has a Jewish grandfather, but that it would someday come to light that he carried a hereditary disposition toward mental illness and retardation."
You might ask your English teacher to go to a good library and see the following article:


"Hitler's Family Secret: A file recovered from the Nazi Archives tells of a Gestapo investigation into the Fuehrer's murky family history."
By: Ben S. Swearingen
Civilization: The Magazine of the Library of Congress Volume 2, Number 2, Arcg/April 1995, pp. 54-55
Harry W. Mazal OBE

[Skitterpop]

Originally Posted by spence

Jihad is a part of Islam, the problem is in the interpretation of Jihad...

A good book that touches this subject well is "The Trouble with Islam: A Muslim's Call for Reform in Her Faith" by Irshad Manji.

-spence

A book is a book is a book....reality does not live on typed pages but rather bleeds slowly across its own slowly revealed truth...SP

[Homerun04]

Spence - I am curious, what is your solution to the middle east conflict?

[spence]

Originally Posted by Skitterpop

A book is a book is a book....reality does not live on typed pages but rather bleeds slowly across its own slowly revealed truth...SP

It's called perspective dipstick

-spence

[spence]

Originally Posted by Homerun04

Spence - I am curious, what is your solution to the middle east conflict?

The whole thing, or just this recent flare up?

-spence

[Skip N]

Before September 11th, The terroist group responsible for killing the most Americans was Hezbalah.

And a cease fire wil only give Hezbalah time to re arm and re organize. Not a smart move for Israel to accept one....

[stormfish]

Originally Posted by RIJIMMY

oh by the way stormfish, I just called the nation of the Mohawks and Iroquois, they will come by later today to kick you, and your family off your land. It doesnt "really" belong to you now, does it? You should do whats right and give it back to the natives.

Haha... I think they rather build casinos nowadays!

I didn't know Jews were natives of Jereuselem... I thought they were Nomadic people that crucified Jesus...

Hitler looks more Jewish than German to me. Hitler labled those who weren't blonde with blue eyes as Jewish during that time. Did he look in the mirror?

[spence]

Originally Posted by stormfish

I thought they were Nomadic people that crucified Jesus...

Actually, it was the Romans.

I'm curious where you get your alternate version of history?

-spence

[The Dad Fisherman]

Who Are The Jews?


The Jews have a 5,750 year history, tracing their origins to Biblical times. Evolving out of a common religion, the Jewish people developed customs, culture, and an ethical system which identified them as Jews regardless of their individual religious attitudes. The ancient Jews were both conquerors and the conquered. But they were among only a handful of ancient peoples to survive, despite centuries of persecution, massacres, and their dispersion amongst all of the world's nations. Where other peoples assimilated, the Jews adopted some local customs and folkways, but held onto the basic tenets of their religion and culture.

This chapter describes the history, religion, customs and culture of the Jewish people. An understanding of "who are the Jews" is a prerequisite to understanding the roots of anti-Semitism, which, in its most vile form, sowed the seeds of the Holocaust which had as its ultimate objective the total annihilation of the Jewish people.

Judaism
Judaism is the religion of the Jews. There are an estimated 14 million followers of the Jewish religion around the world. Most of the world's Jews are concentrated in three countries: the United States (six million), Israel (3.7 million), and the Soviet Union (2.5 million). Other nations with significant Jewish populations are France (650 thousand), Great Britain (400 thousand), Canada (300 thousand), Argentina (300 thousand), and Brazil (150 thousand).

Judaism was the first religion based on monotheism, the belief in one God. All of the major Western religions found their roots in Judaism.

A central tenet of Judaism is that God, the Creator of the World, made a special agreement called a covenant (berit in Hebrew) with Abraham, from whom the Jewish people descended. The covenant provided that the Jews would be blessed with God's love and protection if they remained true to God's law and faithfully worshipped Him, and be accountable for sins and transgression against God and His laws. The Jewish People have often been referred to throughout history as the "Chosen People" because of the belief that the Jews were singled out among all of the ancient peoples to receive God's laws and His blessings. According to Judaism, the Jews were chosen to be His servants although God is the universal Creator of all humanity.

Jews traditionally do not encourage converts, although converts are accepted after they demonstrate knowledge about the faith and their sincerity in accepting its laws.

The tenets of Judaism include a belief in a coming Messiah (derived from the Hebrew, meaning, "the anointed one") who will unite the Jewish people and lead them under a Kingdom of God on earth and bring peace and justice to all mankind.

While Judaism recognizes an "afterlife," it is principally a "this world" religion. The Creator in Judaistic theology is all-knowing and does not have a corporal form.

Judaism is traditionally decentralized. There is no equivalent to a Pope or other central, international decision-making authority who determines religious dogma or practice. Each Jewish congregation is responsible for its own affairs and is usually, but not always, led by a spiritual leader called a rabbi. Many rabbis are trained in a seminary or university established for the purpose of furthering religious scholarship and teaching. Each of the major groups of Judaism (Orthodox, Conservative, Reform, and Reconstructionist) has its own institution in the United States for training rabbis, and each sect, and for that matter, each congregation, maintains its own practices, traditions, and interpretations of Jewish law.

Jewish worship and study often takes place at a synagogue, and religious services often include prayer and readings from the Torah. Services held in a synagogue are traditionally led by a rabbi and assisted by a cantor, who leads the chanting and songs which accompany prayer.

Judaism traditionally emphasizes ethical conduct and the treatment of others "as one would wish to be treated themselves." Thus, the doctrine which does exist through written and oral Jewish law is continually being reinterpreted to respond to modern developments.

The major body of Jewish law is found in the Torah, which consists of the Five Books of Moses (also known as the Pentateuch) and which forms the first part of the Old Testament. This law has been supplemented by oral law and interpretations of the law which comprise the Talmud.

There are 613 commandments included in the Torah, which also includes the "Ten Commandments." These 613 commandments govern Jewish law covering such areas as philanthropy, sacrifices, prayer, ritual purity, dietary laws, and observances of the Sabbath and other holy days. The Jewish system of law, also referred to as Halacha, includes a civil and criminal justice system which is followed by observant Jews. Halacha regulates Jewish life, such as marriage and divorce, burial, relationships with non-Jews and education.

As is true with adherents of all religions, the degree to which individual Jews observe Jewish laws and traditions varies.

Among the practices of observant Jews are:

1. Dietary Laws
Strict Jewish law requires that Jews may not eat certain foods, such as pork, certain seafood, or food without the blood removed, and may not mix dairy and meat products at the same meal. These laws also describe how animals must be slaughtered so as to minimize suffering.
2. Jewish Calendar
Jewish law utilizes both a lunar and solar calendar to set the dates of holidays. The dates of holidays and festivals are determined by a lunar calendar, which is based on the phases of the moon. The time from new moon to new moon is 29 days, 12.75 hours. Jewish months are thus either 29 or 30 days. Because a solar year is 365.25 days and a lunar year is about eleven days shorter (12 times 29.5), adjustments are made to the Jewish calendar to assure that holidays remain within the same season (which themselves are solar-based calculations rather than lunar) every year. A lunar month is inserted as a "leap month" as a part of this adjustment, with a total of seven months being added every 19 years.
The Jewish Sabbath and holidays traditionally begin at sunset the evening before the day the Sabbath or holiday is observed. Thus the Jewish holiday of Rosh Hashanah in 1990 was observed September 21st and 22nd, but began at sunset on September 20th.

3. Sabbath and Festival Observance
The fourth of the ten commandments is "Remember the Sabbath Day and Keep it Holy" (Exodus 20:8). Observant Jews do not perform any work on the Sabbath, which is spent in prayer and religious study. In addition to the Sabbath, Jews both in ancient times and today celebrate holidays and festivals, each of which have their own rituals associated with observance. Among these are:
Rosh Hashanah (New Year): Rosh Hashanah marks the new year of the Jewish calendar. It is both a joyous and a solemn holiday. Jews around the world do not work and do not attend school on that day. The ram's horn (shofar) is blown ritually to serve as the beginning of ten days of repentance which culminates in Yom Kippur.

Yom Kippur: This is the holiest day of the Jewish calendar. Jews do not go to work or to school on Yom Kippur, and refrain from eating or drinking for the entire holiday. It is considered by Jews to be the day in which every individual is judged by God, and thus it is a solemn day marked by prayer and repentance.

Passover: Passover is an eight-day festival commemorating the freeing of the Israelites from Egyptian bondage. A ritual feast on the first two nights of this holiday, called a Seder, includes the recounting of the Passover story. Ritual foods are eaten during these eight days which are not eaten at other times of the year. Observant Jews do not work or go to school the first two days and the last two days of this holiday.

Shavuot (Feast of Weeks): Shavuot is a festival which marks the giving of the Torah to the Israelites at Mt. Sinai by God. It is a two-day holiday which is often celebrated by having an all night study session on religious topics with friends. Observant Jews do not work or go to school on Shavuot.

Succot: Succot is a commemoration of the wandering of the Israelites in the wilderness before they received the Torah. It is also a commemoration of the final harvest before the winter rains. It is an eight-day holiday, and observant Jews do not work or go to school the first two days or the last day. It is customary to build a structure called a Succah as a symbol of the types of structures the Israelites lived in while they were wandering in the dessert.

Simchat Torah: Simchat Torah commemorates the conclusion and the beginning of the cycle of Torah readings which lasts one year. It occurs the day after Succot ends. Observant Jews do not work or go to school on Simchat Torah.

Hanukkah: Hanukkah is an eight-day holiday which marks the victory of the ancient Israelites, led by Judah Maccabee, over the Syrian-Greek army in 165 B.C.E. Traditionally, Jews light a candle for each night of this holiday until there are eight on the eighth day, plus an extra "shammash" candle. In recent times, it has become traditional to exchange gifts on this holiday. Although Hanukkah usually occurs during the time of Christmas, it is in no way a comparable holiday to Christmas for the Jews.

Purim: Purim is a minor festival of the Jewish calendar which commemorates the triumph of the Jews over a murderous plot by an advisor to King Ahasuerus in Persia in the fifth century B.C.E. It is a joyous holiday and is celebrated by reading the Megillah (a scroll which tells the story of Purim) by baking hamintaschen (triangular-shaped cookies containing jams) and by dressing up in costumes.

4. Ritual Clothing
For centuries, observant Jews have dressed differently than citizens of their host countries while engaged in secular and non-secular activities. During prayer, Jewish males have traditionally worn the following:
a. Skull cap (Kippah, yarmulka): head covering.

b. Phylacteries (Tefillin): these are small boxes containing Torah passages written on parchment with leather straps which are worn on the forehead and left arm during prayers.

c. Fringed Shawl (Tallit): these are worn during prayer.


5. Life Cycle Events

a. Circumcision (Bris) male Jewish children are circumcised on the eighth day after their birth as a sign of a covenant between Abraham and God. The boy is given his name at this ceremony.

b. Bar Mitzvah: at the age of thirteen, Jewish law considers boys to have reached adulthood. A special service is held in the boy's honor, and he is permitted to read from the Torah for the firs time. The comparable ceremony for girls is a Bat Mitzvah which varies in religious significance depending on the sect of Judaism.

c. Marriage and Divorce: at a marriage ceremony, observant Jews sign a marriage contract called a Ketuba. The Ketuba describes the conditions of marriage. The marriage ceremony, as in many other religions, has been ritualized and often includes the breaking of a glass by the groom to symbolize the destruction of the Temple. Jewish law recognizes divorce, made official by a document called a Get. Even if observant Jews obtain a civil divorce, the spouse is unable to remarry in the absence of obtaining a Get from a Jewish court.

d. Death and Mourning: upon the death of a Jew, the body is ritually washed and placed in a coffin for burial, generally the day after death. Loved ones observe a seven-day period of mourning called Shiva at which time religious services are held in the home of the bereaved. The anniversary of the death of a parent (Yahrzeit) is observed by lighting a candle and saying a prayer (Kaddish) in memory.

[The Dad Fisherman]

A Brief History of the Jewish People
The history of the Jews, as described in the Bible, begins with the patriarch Abraham. Abraham was the first to forsake the polytheism and idol worshipping of his people for a belief in one God. Abraham's son, Isaac, and Isaac's son, Jacob, are also considered to be patriarchs by the Jews. The story of Joseph, one of Jacob's twelve sons, is also found in the Bible. He was sold as a slave to the Egyptians by his own brothers. As a result of a famine, the remainder of Joseph's family resettled in Egypt where they and their descendants lived in peace for several generations. However, in approximately 1580 B.C.E., a new Pharaoh (ruler) in Egypt felt threatened by the Jews as well as other peoples who had settled there, so he made them slaves.

In the Book of Exodus, the story of Moses and his liberation of the Jews from Egyptian bondage is told. Moses led the Jews out of Egypt after the Egyptians were afflicted with ten plagues. The Israelites then spent 40 years wandering in the desert under Moses' leadership. While in the desert, Moses ascended Mt. Sinai and, according to tradition, returned with the Ten Commandments from God as well as the Torah. Moses died before the Israelites entered the "Promised Land" of Israel.

Following the death of Moses, the twelve tribes of Israel (one tribe descending from each of Jacob's twelve sons) were led by Joshua into the Promised Land, then inhabited by the Canaanites. After capturing Jericho, the Israelites systematically conquered the rest of Israel. Challenges from Canaanites and Philistines were repelled, the latter people suffering a defeat at the hands of Samson.

The Israelites, seeking an alternative to theocratic leadership, convinced the religious leader at the time, the prophet Samuel, to anoint a king. The first king was Saul (1020-1000 B.C.E.), a member of the tribe of Benjamin, who won victories over the Ammonites and the Philistines. However, Samuel became disillusioned over the autocratic way King Saul ruled the country. Instead of passing leadership of the nation onto Saul's son, Jonathan, Samuel secretly anointed David, a member of the tribe of Judah, as Israel's second king. David had won renown as the warrior who had slain the giant Goliath. David was the eventual victor of a power struggle, which eventually made him king over all of Israel. During David's reign, the Israelites captured Jerusalem and made it both their religious and secular capital.

The heir to King David's throne was Solomon, the son of the King and Bath-Sheba. King Solomon's reign (961-922 B.C.E.) was peaceful. He was noted for lavish building projects, including the First Temple in Jerusalem. There was discontent among the tribes which settled in the north concerning the heavy taxation and forced labor policies of King Solomon, which he felt necessary to create his lavish palaces and public buildings.

Following his death, the ten northern tribes broke away and established their own kingdom, while the tribes of Judah and Benjamin remained loyal to Solomon's successor, King Rehoboam. The capital of the Northern Kingdom was established in Samaria, and the capital of the Southern Kingdom remained in Jerusalem, the historic city in Judah under Jewish control.

In 722 B.C.E., Samaria was conquered by the Assyrians. The fate of the Jews of Samaria is unknown, and they are referred to as the "Ten Lost Tribes of Israel."

In 598 B.C.E., Judah was invaded by King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylonia. Much of the population of the Israelites was sent into exile in Babylonia. Jerusalem itself fell under siege in 586 B.C.E. and was destroyed. The destruction of the First Temple of Jerusalem is commemorated by the Fast of Tishah be-Av, the ninth of the Jewish month of Av. In exile, the Israelites found themselves to be able to participate in the economic and social life of their new land, and to reorganize and maintain Jewish life. When the Persians conquered Babylon in 538 B.C.E., the Persian King Cyrus permitted all conquered peoples to return to their homelands. About 50,000 Jews returned to Judah, although many stayed in Babylon, having established a new life there.

After several decades of delays, the Second Temple was built and dedicated in 516 B.C.E.

Following centuries of relative peace and calm in which the ancient land of Israel was ruled by the Egyptians, the Syrians gained the upper hand in 198 B.C.E. At first, Syrian rule was benign. When Antiochus IV Epiphanes began his rule, he sought to forbid the practice of Judaism in favor of Hellenism. He required the erection of a statue of the Greek god Zeus in the Temple, which kindled a revolt. The military commander for the Jews was Judah Maccabee, who overcame a superior force of highly equipped Syrians to win several battles. Following these victories which bordered on the miraculous, Judah Maccabee reentered the Temple, cleansed it of its desecrations, and rededicated it. The Festival of Hanukkah commemorates these victories.

Triumph over the Syrians was short-lived. The Roman Empire engulfed the area, and with brief exceptions, controlled what became known as Palestine for almost 700 years. King Herod (37-4 B.C.E.) ruled over Judah with the sanction of the Roman Senate. He was a master builder, creating magnificent temples, public works, ports and palaces. The ruins of many of his works, including the reconstructed Second Temple, may still be viewed today.

The Jews revolted against Roman rule in 70 C.E. After a siege, the Second Temple was destroyed (once again, on the 9th of Av of the Jewish calendar) and resistance was crushed except for a company of zealots who took over a fortress at Masada, near the Dead Sea. The Roman army tried for three years to crush that resistance. When defeat of the revolt was inevitable, the defenders drew lots and killed themselves rather than surrender. Jerusalem was restored by the Romans as a pagan city.

The focus of Jewish intellectual life following the destruction of the Second Temple was established in Yavneh. Jewish scholars met here and during the end of the second century and beginning of the third established an oral Jewish law to complement the Torah. This oral law was written down at the end of the second century C.E. by R. Judah ha-Nasi, and is known as the Mishnah. Discussion on the Mishnah was also put to writing, and is known as the Gemara. The Mishnah and Gemara together are called the Talmud. The Jewish scholars in Babylon also developed a Talmud, which eventually supplanted the Palestinian version as the ultimate authority in Jewish legal matters. New centers of Jewish scholarship were established in the diaspora, principally in North Africa and Muslim Spain by the end of the 10th century.

Christianity became the official religion of the Roman Empire at the beginning of the fourth century. Jewish legal rights were restricted. During the first three centuries of Christianity, the issue that separated Jew from Christian was whether Jesus was the true Messiah. By the beginning of the fourth century, Christianity had evolved with customs, rituals and laws far different from Judaism.

Palestine was conquered by the Arabs in the 7th century. Many Jews served in the Arab armies which conquered the Iberian peninsula, and settled in Spain. For centuries, Jews flourished in Spain and North Africa, and recorded achievements in science, medicine, music, philosophy and culture.

Jewish life in the Middle Ages was for the most part a story of social and economic isolation, persecution and massacres. Jews were isolated both physically and socially from the fabric of life in the Middle Ages and the period following the Middle Ages. Yet they filled an important niche. Christianity outlawed usury, the lending of money. Jews were permitted to fill this vacuum by acting as moneylenders and financiers.

GhettosAt first, Jews in the diaspora segregated voluntarily. This was partly for self-protection, but it was perhaps more the result of the requirements of the Jewish religion: to be close to a synagogue and other religious institutions. The concept of segregating Jews involuntarily behind walls was developed in ancient times, but it was not actually implemented as a policy until 1462 in Frankfurt, Germany. The idea caught on in the rest of Europe and became the norm in the 16th century. Unlike its modern 20th century counterpart, the ghetto of 16th century Europe permitted Jews to leave during the day and do their business. While the ghettos permitted Jews to live peacefully, conditions were often crowded and inadequate. However, the isolation of Jews in ghettos had the effect of eliminating assimilation with the host communities, and preserved and enhanced the survival of the Jewish culture.
Those governments unwilling even to tolerate Jews who were segregated in ghettos expelled them. At one time or another, all Jews were expelled from England (1290), France (1306 and 1394), Austria (1420), and Spain (1492). There were local expulsions throughout Europe including those in Germany. Some expulsion policies were reversed when governments realized that the Jews served a useful purpose.

It was not until the Enlightenment (see Chapter 5) that Jews had the opportunity to participate in modern society free from persecution. The fundamentalist acceptance of Jewish law underwent a severe challenge, and the result was the development of reformist movements which eventually culminated in the establishment of Conservative, Reform, and Reconstructionist movements.

Jewish culture developed for 2,000 years in pre-World War II Europe. Jews of both Western and Eastern Europe created a culture of religious practice, arts and music, language (principally Yiddish), and education. It was an entire culture which the Nazis sought to make extinct.

There were distinct differences in the cultures of Jews who settled in the "East" and "West" in the 18th, 19th, and early 20th centuries. Generally, Jews who settled in Western Europe (France, Holland, Germany, Austria, and Italy, for example) were more assimilated than their "eastern" counterparts of the Soviet Union, Poland, Lithuania, Latvia, Rumania, and Hungary. They were more likely to speak the language of their host nation, less likely to be religiously observant, more likely to intermarry, more likely to be urban settlers, more likely to be middle-class, more likely to be formally educated, and more likely to affiliate with generic political parties which represented more than just Jewish interests. Western European Jews were more likely to be accepted by their host countries as full citizens. For the most part, they were able to live side by side with their non-Jewish neighbors, free from the threat of physical attacks and anti-Semitism. Eastern European Jews did not feel safe from pogroms. For many Jews in Western Europe, they were Jewish by religion, but identified with their host country. Thus, when the Jews of Germany were targeted by the Nazis, most of them had a history of feeling that they were "German" rather than "Jewish."

History of Israel
By the end of the 19th century, Jewish nationalism emerged as a prevailing dream. This movement, known as Zionism, envisioned a return of all Jews from the diaspora to a Jewish homeland. In the 1880s, Eastern European Jews made their way to what was then called Palestine. This was the first Aliyah (immigration) wave, the purpose of which was largely to establish agricultural settlements. Baron Edmond de Rothschild assisted with funds. The first Zionist Conference was held in Basel, Switzerland, in 1897, under the leadership of Theodor Herzl. It took another 51 years and the experience of the Holocaust, though, to see the Zionist dream become a reality. As a result of this official sanction for a Jewish homeland by the League of Nations, Jews were encouraged to immigrate to Palestine. The Arabs opposed Jewish settlement and there were many anti-Jewish attacks.
In 1905, a second Aliyah wave brought Jews from Russia. Tel Aviv was founded in 1908, the first all-Jewish city.

In 1917, with the British defeat of the Ottoman Empire, Palestine came under British rule. The modern Arab states were established at that time. In November 1917, in the Balfour Declaration, the British government announced its intention to facilitate the "establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people." This Declaration was endorsed by the Supreme Council of the Principal Allied Powers at a Conference in San Remo on April 24, 1920. In 1922, the League of Nations granted to Great Britain a Mandate to secure the establishment of a Jewish homeland, to facilitate Jewish immigration and to encourage Jewish settlement on the land. By 1929 the Jewish population in Palestine was 160,000, and by the spring of 1936, with the advent of Hitler and increased German immigration, there were close to 400,000 Jews, or about 30 percent of the total population.

In 1939, the British, influenced by the Arab uprisings and the Mufti of Jerusalem, issued the White Paper, which limited Jewish immigration to 10,000 per year for five years, with any further Jewish immigration to be made only with Arab consent.

At the close of World War II, the "Palestinian Question" came before the General Assembly of the United Nations. It recommended that the British Mandate be ended and that Palestine be divided between the Arabs and Jews. On November 29, 1947, the General Assembly partitioned the country into two independent, sovereign states.

On May 14, 1948, the British government terminated its Mandate. The day after, May 15, 1948, the British left the country, and David Ben-Gurion, on behalf of the Jewish Agency, declared the independence of the State of Israel.

Contributions of the Jewish People to Civilization
As individuals and as a people, Jews have had a great impact on civilization, contributing to ideas and culture in every field of human endeavor. Judaism was a parent religion to Christianity and Islam. Jesus was a Jew, as were his disciples. The Hebrew Scriptures were the foundation of Christianity. Jewish law was accepted as a guide to ethics and morality based on the concept of individual conscience. Islam incorporated the Jewish concept of one God, the Scriptures, and Jewish prophets.

[Homerun04]

The whole thing, or just this recent flare up?

The whole thing.....

[spence]

Originally Posted by Homerun04

The whole thing.....

Oh sure, so you can steal it and bring world peace all on your own?

Granted, many of the problems in the Middle East pre-date the USA by a few thousand years...but the current environment has been shaped and dramatically influenced by Western and Asian free markets and governments.

Additionally, it's precisely our dependence on energy that empowers Middle Eastern leaders to silence their people and use centuries old tensions to distract them from self empowered solutions.

Look at what happened in Dubai. They ran out of oil, opened up their markets and whamo, they are a comercial success.

The people feel they have been shafted the past 60 years, buy the West and by their own leaders...and to be honest, they do have a point.

The only option many have is to weigh a radical and progressive option being sold under the guise of Sharia Law.

So this may not be a comprehensive solution...but some quick thoughts.

Believe it or not, in principal I do agree with some neoconservative thinking.

American leadership would be a stabalizing force throughout the world, but to do so forcefully without the guiding reason of our founding fathers...which is exactly what we've been doing the past 6 years ...is proving and will continue to be a disaster.

We must confront our pending energy crisis to remove the crutch of brutal and oppressive regimes.

We must end containment based foreign policy to bring rouge nations and groups into the Global economy.

We must always lead by example as our moral high ground is perhaps our most valuable asset. It allows us to act with impunity when it is necessary...but like Austin Powers mojo, it's tragically lost...and we're nearly impotent.

As I said in my rant the other day, the solution to many of our problems lies in the magic that's America, but we're to terrified by our own leadership to see it.

-spence

[stormfish]

Thank you Dad fisherman for enlightning me with such useful knowledge. So after this whole ordeal, can you explain why the Jews deserve the land of Isreal? I mean you don't see Yamamano Indians getting much of Brazil back. And if I'm not wrong they took a big chunk of Palestine and left the Palestinians with a small strip of sand.
It seems as though Isreal was given the land without consideration towards the Arabs or their religion.

I wish to be enlightened some more... If the Jews didn't kill Jesus then who did? Was it the Romans or maybe the Muslims?

[spence]

Originally Posted by stormfish

It seems as though Isreal was given the land without consideration towards the Arabs or their religion.

To some degree that's true. The Palestinians did fight along side the Britts under the assumption they would be rewarded in the future.

Although the situation with the Nazis did change things quite a bit. I believe there were a few options for where to create a homeland, but the push to reclaim their old lands was marketed at the right levels.

I believe over anxious Zionisim made the matter worse, along with a refusal among the Arab League to sanction the process...leading to the war in 47-48.

I wish to be enlightened some more... If the Jews didn't kill Jesus then who did? Was it the Romans or maybe the Muslims?

Ask Mel Gibson

-spence

[Skitterpop]

Originally Posted by spence

Ask Mel Gibson

-spence

Since you broke the barrier do you think its time for that special planet post? Though who would have all the service contracts if not robots or cyborgs

[spence]

Originally Posted by Skitterpop

Since you broke the barrier do you think its time for that special planet post? Though who would have all the service contracts if not robots or cyborgs

I have no idea what you're talking about

-spence

[Skitterpop]

Originally Posted by spence

I have no idea what you're talking about

-spence

just pretend as usual

[Homerun04]

Actually, it was the Romans.

I'm curious where you get your alternate version of history?

-spence

I'm no biblical scholar or anything, but wasn't Pontius Pilat the Roman Dictate who washed his hands of Jesus since he said he could find no guilt with him....and then turned him over to the Jewish high priests to "do as you please with him"...?? Sure, it is written that the Roman soldiers carried out the crucifixtion, but wasn't that because by law only the state could carry out a death sentence? Wasn't it actually the Jewish religious leaders who fated Christ to death?

BTW - I am a Christian that has deep sympathies for the Jewish people.....so I am not Jew-hating here.....and do not blame the Jews for Christ's death....I actually thank them for their role in it, as accordingly to my beleifs, it means I can now enter into Heaven....just my thoghts when I saw you write that the Romans killed Jesus.

[Homerun04]

And BTW, don't we have the Brits to blame for most of this mess.....after all, it was all their Empire at one time....it was their broken promise to the Arabs (Palestinians) that they would get their homeland back if they fought with the Allies during WWII....and then they turn around and give it to the Israelies instead......anyone else remember Laurence of Arabia..??

[spence]

Originally Posted by Homerun04

I'm no biblical scholar or anything, but wasn't Pontius Pilat the Roman Dictate who washed his hands of Jesus since he said he could find no guilt with him....and then turned him over to the Jewish high priests to "do as you please with him"...?? Sure, it is written that the Roman soldiers carried out the crucifixtion, but wasn't that because by law only the state could carry out a death sentence? Wasn't it actually the Jewish religious leaders who fated Christ to death?

I'm more matter of fact...the Romans killed Jesus.

Certainly many will argue that the Jews were so afraid of this progressive troublemaker that they used their influence to silence him.

But if Jesus was sent to Earth specifically to die for our sins it would seem that the Jewish leaders were just playing a supporting role.

This is important as the notion that the "Jews killed Jesus" has been used by many anti-semetic groups to incite their followers.

-spence

[Homerun04]

I'm more matter of fact...the Romans killed Jesus.

Yes, you see we can both be right and still have different answers....sounds a lot like the current situation in the Middle East....the classic definition of a dilemma.

The Roman soldiers carried out the physical crucifixtion of Jesus based on the Jewish leaders request for it.....and given that the Jews could not do it as it would be against Roman law to do so.

So who is to blame for the death of Jesus? If you ask the Palestinians, I am sure that somehow they would blame the US for the death of Jesus.....

[The Dad Fisherman]

Originally Posted by stormfish

I wish to be enlightened some more... If the Jews didn't kill Jesus then who did? Was it the Romans or maybe the Muslims?

I'm Glad you were blessed with knowledge....No thanx are necessary.

And to help with your Enlightenment....this is from AmericanCatholic.org

Who Killed Jesus?


by Daniel J. Harrington, S.J.


Who killed Jesus? This simple question needs and deserves a careful answer. Throughout the centuries some have responded that the Jews killed Jesus, and therefore they are a "deicide" people. The word "deicide" means to kill God. Since Jesus is divine and since the Jews killed Jesus, therefore they must be a deicide people. This "logic" sometimes gave Christians a rationale and a motive for killing Jews. One result of this tradition was the Nazi Holocaust or Shoah. The hideous results of a careless answer to a simple question prove the need for taking the issue with utmost seriousness.

The Sources

The only ancient sources that we have for who killed Jesus are the passion narratives in the four Gospels: Mark 14—15, Matthew 26—27, Luke 22—23, and John 18—19. The four accounts agree on many basic points. They tell us that Jesus was arrested, underwent two hearings or trials, was sentenced to death by crucifixion, and died on the cross. Mark's account seems to have been the earliest; indeed, large blocks of it may have existed even before the Gospel's composition around a.d. 70. Matthew followed Mark closely, though he did add some (perhaps traditional) material. Luke too used Mark as a source but included more material. John represents a separate tradition, while agreeing with Mark on many matters.

None of the Evangelists set out to write a detailed chronicle of the day Jesus died. All of them provide some reliable historical details. But their real interest lay in the theological significance of Jesus' death for us and for our sins, and how his death took place according to the Scriptures.

A modern historian who sets out to determine who killed Jesus is like a detective. To solve a case, a good detective needs to assemble the evidence and look for details that may provide a window into what really happened. By sifting the evidence and noticing especially what does not fit, a historian/detective can arrive at a reasonable hypothesis on which to build a case.

Historical Responsibilities

The best clue toward determining who killed Jesus is the mode of Jesus' death—by crucifixion. In Jesus' time crucifixion was a Roman punishment inflicted mainly on slaves and revolutionaries. The usual Jewish mode of execution was stoning, as in the case of Stephen (see Acts 7:54-60). Crucifixion was a cruel and public way to die. As a public punishment, it was meant to shame the one being executed and to deter the onlookers from doing what he had done.

The official who had the power to execute Jesus by crucifixion was the Roman governor or prefect. In Jesus' time the prefect was Pontius Pilate, who held that position between a.d. 26 and 36. Jesus was put to death "under Pontius Pilate" around a.d. 30. Although the Gospels present Pilate as indecisive and somewhat concerned for justice in Jesus' case, the Alexandrian Jewish writer Philo (a contemporary of Jesus) described him as "inflexible, merciless, and obstinate."

All four Gospels recount a proceeding or hearing in which Jesus appeared before Pontius Pilate. According to Mark 15:1-15 (see also Matt 27:11-26; Luke 23:1-25), the Roman governor questioned Jesus and offered the crowd a choice between Barabbas and Jesus. The crowd at the urging of the chief priests called for Barabbas to be released and for Jesus to be crucified. Pilate bows to pressure, and "after he had Jesus scourged, handed him over to be crucified" (Mark 15:15). John's elaborate account of Jesus' trial before Pilate (John 18:28—19:16) ends in the same way, with Pilate handing Jesus over to be crucified (John 19:16).

The official charge against Jesus appears in the inscription placed on the cross: "The King of the Jews" (Mark 15:26; John 19:19). To Christian readers, this title ironically expresses the truth that Jesus really was the Messiah of Jewish expectations—the anointed one who is king, priest, and prophet. To Pilate and his Jewish collaborators, however, Jesus was one in a series of Jewish religious-political rebels bent on destroying the Roman empire and the status quo at Jerusalem in the name of the kingdom of God. These Jewish messiah-figures described by the Jewish historian Josephus in his Jewish Antiquities (especially in Books 17, 18 and 20) often used religious symbols and traditions to gain a popular following and to begin an uprising. The Roman governors dealt with them swiftly and brutally.

Jesus did not die alone. Rather, he was crucified along with two men described in various translations as "thieves," "bandits," "rebels," or "revolutionaries." The Greek term being translated in each case is lestes—the word applied to Barabbas who was "in prison along with the rebels who had committed murder in a rebellion" (Mark 15:7). It apparently referred not so much to petty thieves as to social bandits or revolutionaries of a "Robin Hood" type who resisted the Roman officials and their Jewish collaborators. While the Evangelists are careful to assert that Jesus was not a lestes ("Have you come out as against a robber, with swords and clubs, to seize me?" Mark 14:48), the fact that Pilate offered a choice between Barabbas and Jesus, and then had Jesus crucified as "the King of the Jews" along with two lestai indicates that Pilate viewed Jesus as another Jewish religious-political troublemaker.

And so the mode of death (crucifixion), the legal system in force (with Pilate as having ultimate authority in capital cases), the official charge against Jesus ("the King of the Jews"), and the identity of those crucified with Jesus (lestai) all point in the same direction. The ultimate legal and moral responsibility for Jesus' death lay with Pontius Pilate, the Roman prefect of Judea between a.d. 26 and 36. Pontius Pilate killed Jesus.

[spence]

Originally Posted by Homerun04

The Roman soldiers carried out the physical crucifixtion of Jesus based on the Jewish leaders request for it.....and given that the Jews could not do it as it would be against Roman law to do so.

Didn't Jesus know he would be betrayed?

I'm not trying to argue semantics, but rather that in this context it has nothing to do with the root cause.

-spence

[Homerun04]

And so the mode of death (crucifixion), the legal system in force (with Pilate as having ultimate authority in capital cases), the official charge against Jesus ("the King of the Jews"), and the identity of those crucified with Jesus (lestai) all point in the same direction. The ultimate legal and moral responsibility for Jesus' death lay with Pontius Pilate, the Roman prefect of Judea between a.d. 26 and 36. Pontius Pilate killed Jesus.

They both killed Jesus......

[Homerun04]

Didn't Jesus know he would be betrayed?

Exactly....betrayed by the Jews....so why do you hold fast to the idea that only the Romans killed Jesus..??

[The Dad Fisherman]

Originally Posted by Homerun04

They both killed Jesus......

Kinda like the Pamela Smart Syndrome...

I'll give ya that....The jews had their part in it as well.

[spence]

Originally Posted by Homerun04

Exactly....betrayed by the Jews....so why do you hold fast to the idea that only the Romans killed Jesus..??

Ok, now you're really making a stretch...

So the moral of Judas is that the Jews were out to get Jesus? Don't think so...

I'm sure a Biblical scholar would argue that is was SATAN who killed Jesus anyway, for Satan is the cause of our sins which Jesus died for.

I know the Bible is a long book, but this is a pretty critical element to the story!

-spence

[Homerun04]

So the moral of Judas is that the Jews were out to get Jesus? Don't think so...

Spence - I think you are mis-understanding me.....I never said the Jews were out to get Jesus....but, there is NO question historically nor biblically that YES - the Jewish priests were out to get Jesus....no question about that one, and that they brided Judas to betray Jesus....it wasn't the Romans who bribed Judas....again no question about these facts.

Yes the Bible is a critical element to the story......which I have read many times cover to cover....

[spence]

Originally Posted by Homerun04

Spence - I think you are mis-understanding me.....I never said the Jews were out to get Jesus....but, there is NO question historically nor biblically that YES - the Jewish priests were out to get Jesus....no question about that one, and that they brided Judas to betray Jesus....it wasn't the Romans who bribed Judas....again no question about these facts.

Homerun, think like a consultant...do your root cause analysis

-spence

[Homerun04]

Homerun, think like a consultant...do your root cause analysis

Okay Spence (Mr. Consultant)....you tell us then....what was the root cause of Jesus' death then...? The Romans? I don't think so....