inner city and the democratic party

[JohnnyD]

Originally Posted by scottw

As such, while my 2:47AM post after a night of fishing was grossly over exaggerated.yes it was

That letting people immigrate here with the mindset "maybe they'll live in squander with 10 other people to save up and start a successful business" is horribly misguided. who suggested that anyone is "letting" anyone immigrate here with that horribly misguided mindset?...I'm guessing most would just like some kind of stable employment, starting a business is a LONG way from basic employment....that would be a funny sign at the border though..."IF YOU THINK YOU CAN JUST COME HERE AND LIVE IN "SQUANDER" WITH 10 OTHER PEOPLE AND SAVE UP TO START YOUR OWN BUSINESS...YOU'VE GOT ANOTHER THING COMING"


. America is neither the worlds Police Force, nor its Welfare department. currently it is both

MANY BUSINESSES CLOSE FOR MANY REASONS AND NOT NECESSARILY BECAUSE THEY "FAILED"

QUOTE]

What kind of conservative are you?

With regards to the 10 people living in squander comment I made, if you had actually read the whole thread as opposed to trying to pick a fight, Joe mentioned that some immigrants live 10 to an apartment to save up the money to start a business.

I challenge anyone to demonstrate a situation where 10 people living in an apartment is not living in squander.

The minute the US customs says welcome to America to a non-citizen here for an extended stay, they're potentially "letting" someone immigrate here. My position is that they shouldn't unless it's for good reason and they can contribute to society.

I still stand that America *is not* the worlds Police Force or Welfare Agency. The problem is that many think it should be - like those that think we should get involved with Iran, send Aid to Africa or any number of international issues we get involved with more than any other country does.

Yes, businesses do close for many reasons, but the number one reason is because they could no longer sustain themselves - ie: They Failed.

[JohnnyD]

Originally Posted by The Dad Fisherman

They can also work for somebody else...they don't need to neccesarily start their own business. They can be electricians, plumbers, carpenters, roofer, landscapers....and work for somebody else....and do so legally and pay their share of taxes

Without any skills or education, they can't do any of those things - aside from landscaping, which I did find as a fun job while in high school.

Also helps illustrate my point....you still don't ignore the other 85-90% until they don't pan out.....you allow it the chance turn into a sale...if it doesn't then you drop it

The reason you cannot let anyone come here and see if it pans out is because there is currently no capability for oversight. INS is overstretched beyond any effective operating capability. The Dallas bomb plotter that was just arrested was here on an expired VISA.
This article demonstrates that the US has *no* effective way of tracing whether Foreign Visitors have actually left the country or not.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2360429/posts
I believe at least one of the 9/11 hijackers was here on an expired visa.

Without the capability for oversight, the "benefit of the doubt" method can't be used. So yes, if they don't have any skills, aren't here to 100% pay for their own education or aren't here merely for a visit (with confirmed travel plans), they should not be allowed to enter.

And there in lies where the Fixing needs to come in...thats the part of the system that is screwed up and causing the problems. I said earlier I didn't want an open door policy...they need to come here legally through a System that actually works

Until that system actually works, everything else needs to be stopped. I'm not saying that eventually, your suggested "give people a chance" shouldn't happen. My argument is that under the current circumstances of INS and all other government offices that deal with immigration, the oversight is not there to prevent these people from possibly becoming an additional leech on an already overburdened economy.

[scottw]

[QUOTE=JohnnyD;717396]What kind of conservative are you?

With regards to the 10 people living in squander comment I made,




I don't think it's possible to live in "squander" and save money at the same time...

[scottw]

Yes, businesses do close for many reasons, but the number one reason is because they could no longer sustain themselves - ie: They Failed.[/QUOTE]


99% ?

[JohnnyD]

[QUOTE=scottw;717406]

Originally Posted by JohnnyD

What kind of conservative are you?

With regards to the 10 people living in squander comment I made,




I don't think it's possible to live in "squander" and save money at the same time...

True. That is the completely wrong word than the thoughts going on in my head.

[JohnnyD]

Originally Posted by scottw

Yes, businesses do close for many reasons, but the number one reason is because they could no longer sustain themselves - ie: They Failed.

99% ?[/QUOTE]

When was 99% ever mentioned?

[The Dad Fisherman]

Originally Posted by JohnnyD

Without any skills or education, they can't do any of those things - aside from landscaping, which I did find as a fun job while in high school..

Really, You need extensive schooling to be a roofer.

I got a friend that is a GC and he started by just being a day laborer lugging building supplies around. Learned on the job started carpentry, pay when up opportunities went up and he is where he is now.......and no additional schooling needed.

Any profession takes time to master. An Electrician can go to school and then has to log in so many hours as a journeyman....I'm pretty sure thats the same for a plumber

Originally Posted by JohnnyD

The reason you cannot let anyone come here and see if it pans out is because there is currently no capability for oversight. INS is overstretched beyond any effective operating capability. The Dallas bomb plotter that was just arrested was here on an expired VISA.
This article demonstrates that the US has *no* effective way of tracing whether Foreign Visitors have actually left the country or not.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2360429/posts
I believe at least one of the 9/11 hijackers was here on an expired visa.

I'm not arguing with you about the fact that the US INS service sucks....I know it does....it needs to be fixed. There needs to be a screening process, a checkin process......a lot of processes....I know that

and the terrorist examples are kind of weak.....c'mon 3 million untrackable VISA's and your going to pull out the fact that 2 of them are terrorists......your better than that

Originally Posted by JohnnyD

Without the capability for oversight, the "benefit of the doubt" method can't be used. So yes, if they don't have any skills, aren't here to 100% pay for their own education or aren't here merely for a visit (with confirmed travel plans), they should not be allowed to enter.

and this will give the same red tape headaches as the current system.

Once they're in....they're in. no guarantees they're leaving or are going to pay their own way

[scottw]

Originally Posted by scottw

Yes, businesses do close for many reasons, but the number one reason is because they could no longer sustain themselves - ie: They Failed.

99% ?[/QUOTE]

you said that "the number one reason" was a result of "failure"...based on your recent record of exaggeration I assumed that to be around 99%...I won't ask how big the fish was that you caught last night....

[JohnnyD]

Originally Posted by The Dad Fisherman

Really, You need extensive schooling to be a roofer.

You're right about that. But, we also have millions of Americans here without jobs. So let more people come in without any skills to take them?

I got a friend that is a GC and he started by just being a day laborer lugging building supplies around. Learned on the job started carpentry, pay when up opportunities went up and he is where he is now.......and no additional schooling needed.

Any profession takes time to master. An Electrician can go to school and then has to log in so many hours as a journeyman....I'm pretty sure thats the same for a plumber

I don't know the details of how the tradesman fields work aside from Electrician.

I'm not arguing with you about the fact that the US INS service sucks....I know it does....it needs to be fixed. There needs to be a screening process, a checkin process......a lot of processes....I know that

and the terrorist examples are kind of weak.....c'mon 3 million untrackable VISA's and your going to pull out the fact that 2 of them are terrorists......your better than that

The terrorist example is just a high profile one. Also, I believe both of those people had been pulled over by police at one point or another and released (I know this minimally the case for the hijacker), which demonstrates yet another hole in the system. I used it as an example of the ultimate price paid for the system being extremely over-burdened and essentially made impotent by the current open-door policy.

and this will give the same red tape headaches as the current system.

How? People could be culled out during the application process. Anything is better than the current state of things.

Once they're in....they're in. no guarantees they're leaving or are going to pay their own way

You're right. But if there was a system in place to increase the odds those people will be productive citizens, we're already at a net-gain. Then, there are fewer immigrants needed to be overseen - another net-gain.

Ultimately, the country needs a policy of that if they apply for government assistance, the only assistance they get is enough for a plane ticket back where they came.

[JohnnyD]

Originally Posted by scottw

99% ?

you said that "the number one reason" was a result of "failure"...based on your recent record of exaggeration I assumed that to be around 99%...I won't ask how big the fish was that you caught last night....

Oh I see. The Glen Beck method of debate.

The number one cause of death in America is heart disease. I guess that means 99% of people die of heart disease?

[The Dad Fisherman]

Originally Posted by JohnnyD

How? People could be culled out during the application process. Anything is better than the current state of things..

How do you verify that a guy is going to pay his own way. Now you need to tie Banking systems into the approval process. How do you verify that a guy has Skill sets? Based on the schooling aspects you now have to tie in access to the places of Higher Learning into the approval process. Here for a vacation, what hotel are you staying at? oh you're not staying at a hotel? who's house then will you be staying at? Oh you're here to visit the national park.....which ones, what Campsites are you staying at?

Also, how about a criminal background check. That is one that should be mandatory....you got a record....see ya.

that's a lot of red tape.

I agree they need an approval process...and also a monitoring process....but you still have to let people in at some point.

If we didn't just think how crappy the Indian, Chinese, and Mexican food would taste

Originally Posted by JohnnyD

You're right. But if there was a system in place to increase the odds those people will be productive citizens, we're already at a net-gain. Then, there are fewer immigrants needed to be overseen - another net-gain..

Again, that's the system that needs to be fixed. There should be a minimum waiting period, an interview process, and a "Business Plan" submitted.......Like Twisted Sister Said "what are you going to do with your life"

Originally Posted by JohnnyD

Ultimately, the country needs a policy of that if they apply for government assistance, the only assistance they get is enough for a plane ticket back where they came.

See we can agree...I'm all for that one.

[scottw]

Originally Posted by JohnnyD

Oh I see.
The number one cause of death in America is heart disease. I guess that means 99% of people die of heart disease?

if you keep making these crazy statements, noone is going to believe anything that you say....

[JohnnyD]

Originally Posted by scottw

if you keep making these crazy statements, noone is going to believe anything that you say....

If you keep selectively deleting the parts of a quote that you don't like, no one is going to believe anything that you say.

You're actually the one that's made crazy statements. See your last 3 posts as a reference.

[spence]

Originally Posted by JohnnyD

If you keep selectively deleting the parts of a quote that you don't like, no one is going to believe anything that you say.

You're actually the one that's made crazy statements. See your last 3 posts as a reference.

You think anyone believes anything he says now?

I'm not sure what purpose he serves aside from increasing the entropy of the system.

-spence

[scottw]

Originally Posted by JohnnyD

If you keep selectively deleting the parts of a quote that you don't like, no one is going to believe anything that you say.

You're actually the one that's made crazy statements. See your last 3 posts as a reference.

JD, it's.... SQUALOR....and it's NOT 95%......got it?... I'm crazy...right...


Spence, better get back to affecting history from your Mom's basement one fishing website at a time... you'd better be nice to me now that you've divulged that we are blood brothers from another mother....