Ukraine

[spence]

This is pretty heavy...

I like this perspective from the WP.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinio...39c_story.html

-spence

[Nebe]

Putin was made to look like a fool at Sochi. This is his attempt at redemption.
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[Sea Dangles]

There are enough Russian nationalists in Ukraine to warrant protective measures. We are always telling other nations what to do but I have a feeling if the shoe were on the other foot we may be whistling a different tune. Do you honestly feel if Block Island chose to become independent we would wish them good luck?

[spence]

Originally Posted by Sea Dangles

There are enough Russian nationalists in Ukraine to warrant protective measures. We are always telling other nations what to do but I have a feeling if the shoe were on the other foot we may be whistling a different tune. Do you honestly feel if Block Island chose to become independent we would wish them good luck?

That begs the question was/is there really a threat to the Russian speaking Ukrainians? Most of those dead so far were shot by the old government's police.

Primarily this appears to be about Putin trying to stop the power shift towards the EU. His bribe to the former president didn't appear to work as planned...

-spence

[Sea Dangles]

Security is paramount and breeds some odd partnerships.We exploit countries every day to protect US interests.Does that make it wrong?

[spence]

Originally Posted by Sea Dangles

Security is paramount and breeds some odd partnerships.We exploit countries every day to protect US interests.Does that make it wrong?

Did I say it was wrong?

-spence

[justplugit]

" Obama would be wise to seek Russia to defer Russian aggression without
specifying too clearly what the US ladder of escalation might be." Ignatius, WP.

Putin is in the catbird seat carrying the "Big Stick" and will do what he wants.
We have become like Casper the Ghost carrying a tooth pick and planning to cut our military in half. True peace comes from strength ,not weakness, without it there is nothing to negotiate with.

[Sea Dangles]

Originally Posted by spence

Did I say it was wrong?

-spence

I thought it was implied,but as is usually the case with you jeff,something was lost in translation.I will bow out now before I am baited into discourse which relies heavily on semantics, and facts and opinions become blurred by your imagination.

But I still look forward to making a fishing trip happen this year. Please bring Nebe to translate, I often don't understand what you are trying to convey.

[Nebe]

Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[spence]

Originally Posted by Sea Dangles

I thought it was implied,but as is usually the case with you jeff,something was lost in translation.I will bow out now before I am baited into discourse which relies heavily on semantics, and facts and opinions become blurred by your imagination.

But I still look forward to making a fishing trip happen this year. Please bring Nebe to translate, I often don't understand what you are trying to convey.

Playing devil's advocate is hard work. I hope you're not tired out.

-spence

[spence]

Originally Posted by justplugit

Putin is in the catbird seat carrying the "Big Stick" and will do what he wants.
We have become like Casper the Ghost carrying a tooth pick and planning to cut our military in half. True peace comes from strength ,not weakness, without it there is nothing to negotiate with.

Nonsense. The Russian economy is nothing without access to western banking, trade and his ability to sell natural gas to the EU at a premium.

Aside from China it looks like there's already strong alignment between the US and EU.

It's amazing how fast the Right jumped on the opportunity to divide Americans. I'll give the GOP this, they haven't proposed any meaningful policy in a decade, but their one liners are priceless.

-spence

[buckman]

Originally Posted by spence

It's amazing how fast the Right jumped on the opportunity to divide Americans. I'll give the GOP this, they haven't proposed any meaningful policy in a decade, but their one liners are priceless.

-spence

Never mind mirrors , I don't think you have any windows.

List the "meaningful " Democrat policies
By that I mean good ones
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[spence]

Originally Posted by buckman

Never mind mirrors , I don't think you have any windows.

List the "meaningful " Democrat policies
By that I mean good ones
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Deflection.

-spence

[buckman]

I hope this Ukraine thing doesn't continue in the obvious direction it's heading .Your dear leader might have to sit in on a security council meeting or two .
I believe Ukraine is loaded with natural gas . This has nothing to do with Russian nationals . That's an excuse to invade . We've seen it before
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[justplugit]

---
[QUOTE=spence;1033929]Nonsense. The Russian economy is nothing without access to western banking, trade and his ability to sell natural gas to the EU at a premium.
__________________________________________________ _____________

EU will have to want to take the big blows here.

__________________________________________________ ______________
Quote=spence

It's amazing how fast the Right jumped on the opportunity to divide Americans. I'll give the GOP this, they haven't proposed any meaningful policy in a decade, but their one liners are priceless.
__________________________________________________ _____________
Spence get real, this current administration has done more to divide our country then anytime I can ever remember in my life time.
Palin and Romney both brought up the possibility of a possible geo political Ukraine issue and were put down by the great forward leftist thinkers. Lets think about the pressing global warming.

[spence]

Originally Posted by buckman

I hope this Ukraine thing doesn't continue in the obvious direction it's heading .Your dear leader might have to sit in on a security council meeting or two .

Ohhhh, I see you fell prey to more Drudge nonsense. Soon Jim will chime in with voting present in IL.

I believe Ukraine is loaded with natural gas . This has nothing to do with Russian nationals . That's an excuse to invade . We've seen it before
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

And in violation of their own treaty with the Ukraine. Note they were pending joining the EU which is a stepping stone to joining NATO. Russia is close to having a NATO wall between Europe.

-spence

[buckman]

Originally Posted by spence

Ohhhh, I see you fell prey to more Drudge nonsense. Soon Jim will chime in with voting present in IL.


And in violation of their own treaty with the Ukraine. Note they were pending joining the EU which is a stepping stone to joining NATO. Russia is close to having a NATO wall between Europe.

-spence

Hope you're right . I'm a little less trusting of socialist dictator wannabes
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[JohnR]

Well thankfully we have John Kerry to guide a path through the shoals here. If that doesn't work, we have Joe Biden in reserve on the bench ready to go. /Sarcasm

This is a fustercluck no matter how it works. Putin was trying to keep a lid on this until Sochi was done. This hit the hot water just after but had been brewing for a while.

Ukraine has 4 things important to Russia:

• Wheat - they are the Slavic breadbasket
• Warm water ports - year round warm water ports to sell their oil & LNG plus the Black Sea Fleet headquarters.
• Buffer between the Russians and everyone else.
• Russians. A lot of Russians that descended from the Russians that defended Ukraine from the Germans in WWII. Oh, and those that were put there to replace the many evicted Tartars

Ukraine means a LOT. Of all the former republics under the Soviet umbrella the one that probably means the most is Ukraine.

Militarily there are no great options. The Navy cannot get in there (the Turks might not even let us through as they try to figure out are they Muslim or EU/NATO). The Air Force would be playing in Russia's back yard. The Army is nowhere close and what is 1000 miles away is at the end of a Russian railroad for logistical supply.

NATO/EU is a near useless shell of a force that could stop the Russians heading west but not much else - the fruits of a peace dividend and near 2 decades of having the US do their heavy lifting. We can't afford it anymore. They are not going to go into Ukraine and have the Russians turn off their heat (they buy Russia's LNG).

If I were the Baltics, Poles, and Czech/Slovs, I'd be real nervous.

This will at best be settled diplomatically / economically. At worst, if our vaunted elected leaders fail, any other country with a treaty / memorandum is going to be real concerned that we will not meet our obligations. Taiwan / Japan / Philippines / Poland / Balitcs / Israel are all watching this very intently.

Crimea is gone, South Oesstia all over again. With luck, Crimea is the only thing lost. They could use the same tactics and get the entire coast from Odessa to the Crimea under their wing and have a small, landlocked Ukraine remaining.

This major leadership deficit in our country is gonna hurt us real soon. From both parties.

The Titanic Deck Ass Containment Apparatus Rearrangement Team is in full swing.

[spence]

Originally Posted by JohnR

Well thankfully we have John Kerry to guide a path through the shoals here. If that doesn't work, we have Joe Biden in reserve on the bench ready to go. /Sarcasm

Remember after 9/11 people thought we had the foreign policy dream team...look how that played out.

The important negotiations here will be with the EU.

-spence

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by spence

Remember after 9/11 people thought we had the foreign policy dream team...look how that played out.

The important negotiations here will be with the EU.

-spence

I might actually agree with Spence on this. Not about the 9/11 bit and "how that played out." The playing out involved back and forth opposition and agreement with those who were not on the "dream team." And an ultimate dismantling of the dream teams policies by those who followed. But that's, as Spence likes to say, old news. And if he were true to the implication that old news is no longer relevant, one wonders why he likes to so often bring up old news. I guess if that tactic suits his argument of the present moment (but subject to change the next day or hour in another thread) it's acceptable--after all, it's CHANGE. And change is the highest aspiration of the progressive mind. Apparently, the more often, the better.

But I digress. I may actually agree with the important negotiations being with the EU. If Spence means by that negotiations amongst Russia, the EU, and Ukraine. In fact, those are the ONLY relevant negotiations. And, power to truth, if the EU is not militarily strong enough or morally resolute enough to stand up to the same of Putin's Russia, the "negotiations" may be one sided in results.

The U.S. has too long been the military backbone for Western Europe--and NATO. That is not only outside our sphere of influence, but we are, again, in the process of weakening our own military might. Europe, if it wants to stand on whatever it considers its principles, needs to be willing to fight for them.

As far as "economic" sanctions--those cut both ways. Besides, Russia has always managed to be outside of Western Europe's economic sphere. And it is forming other alliances rapidly, now, in response to threats against its hegemony in what it considers its sphere of influence.

[JohnR]

Originally Posted by spence

Remember after 9/11 people thought we had the foreign policy dream team...look how that played out.

The important negotiations here will be with the EU.

-spence

Today, I would trade that dream team for this dream team. The 2001-2002 team might have been C players at the time but the current crop is a solid -D at best. The influence the current administration can bring to the table is marginal at best but they are doing a wonderful job of accelerating our influence.

Originally Posted by detbuch

But I digress. I may actually agree with the important negotiations being with the EU. If Spence means by that negotiations amongst Russia, the EU, and Ukraine. In fact, those are the ONLY relevant negotiations. And, power to truth, if the EU is not militarily strong enough or morally resolute enough to stand up to the same of Putin's Russia, the "negotiations" may be one sided in results.

The U.S. has too long been the military backbone for Western Europe--and NATO. That is not only outside our sphere of influence, but we are, again, in the process of weakening our own military might. Europe, if it wants to stand on whatever it considers its principles, needs to be willing to fight for them.

As far as "economic" sanctions--those cut both ways. Besides, Russia has always managed to be outside of Western Europe's economic sphere. And it is forming other alliances rapidly, now, in response to threats against its hegemony in what it considers its sphere of influence.

[Nebe]

The irony here is that the us stock market is soaring today. That's the biggest "F-U" to Putin we can send. No one takes him seriously.
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[Piscator]

Originally Posted by Nebe

No one takes him seriously.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

Lets call a spade a spade...not many take Obama and his "team" seriously either.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by Piscator

Lets call a spade a spade...not many take Obama and his "team" seriously either.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

OK . . . I guess you chose the "spade" locution on purpose. But be careful. The administrations NSA spies are searching communications for key words and phrases that indicate extremist tendencies.

[Piscator]

Originally Posted by detbuch

OK . . . I guess you chose the "spade" locution on purpose. But be careful. The administrations NSA spies are searching communications for key words and phrases that indicate extremist tendencies.

What are you talking about?

[JohnR]

Originally Posted by Piscator

What are you talking about?

That there is another definition of "spade" (infrequently used in a derogatory manner towards black people formerly of African extraction). The PC / Diversity folks will be scanning your system for you may use other terminology that would indicate you are an Obama hating racist white heterosexual male.

You can't use sayings or phrases unless they have been pre-approved by the diversity kommissars.

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by Piscator

What are you talking about?

Just a poor attempt at humor. Calling a spade a spade is obviously not meant to be a racial reference. On the other hand, a spade is a sometimes derogatory reference to a black person. Well, it used to be, but gone out of fashion. So, when referring to Obama you say calling a spade a spade . . . well . . .

[detbuch]

OOps . . . sorry John . . . I jumped in while you were posting and before I saw it. And I like your explanation better.

[buckman]

Originally Posted by detbuch

Just a poor attempt at humor. Calling a spade a spade is obviously not meant to be a racial reference. On the other hand, a spade is a sometimes derogatory reference to a black person. Well, it used to be, but gone out of fashion. So, when referring to Obama you say calling a spade a spade . . . well . . .

I like that. " gone out of fashion "
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[Piscator]

Originally Posted by detbuch

Just a poor attempt at humor. Calling a spade a spade is obviously not meant to be a racial reference. On the other hand, a spade is a sometimes derogatory reference to a black person. Well, it used to be, but gone out of fashion. So, when referring to Obama you say calling a spade a spade . . . well . . .

It wasn't an attempt at humor, sound like a poor interpretation on your part...Jesus...what has the world come to here...I went and googled the term and looks like some have turned this into something more...take it from the Erasmus translation..."a garden tool".

Reminds me why I don't come on this thread much anymore, everyone is so uptight and looking for any reason to jump on someone.

PS. Putin is Eurotrash...might as well bring the KGB into the investigation too