Another - you cant make this up

[spence]

Originally Posted by RIJIMMY

Spence - every criminal is "just trying to make a better life"

Well, that's a stretch.

The simple fact is that most Americans, if put in her position, would have done exactly the same thing.

That doesn't mean it's right (legally speaking) mind you, but there are moral implications to be factored in. I've heard of a saying in South America that you "can't fault someone for trying to get by" and to some degree this is reflected in the US. Would you fault a parent for stealing to feel starving children?

I'm not sure it's really that easy to relate.

-spence

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by spence

Well, that's a stretch.

The simple fact is that most Americans, if put in her position, would have done exactly the same thing.

Americans (the U.S. kind) are more prone to change conditions in their country to their benefit rather than illegally migrating to another country. This country was founded by that type of revolution. There have been many revolutions south of the border. Perhaps they should keep trying till they get it right so their citizens don't have to leave. I hear they have some places that are amenable to the poor, like Cuba or Venezuala--good health care, everyone has a job or is taken care of. Those would be good models for the downtrodden to follow rather than risking everything to illegally sneak into such an ungrateful, oppressive, and selfish place like the U.S. Even Canada would be better, no?

That doesn't mean it's right (legally speaking) mind you, but there are moral implications to be factored in.

Which moral implications and whose morality? A great deal of the moral implications that resulted in U.S. law, it is said, derived from Judeo/Christian morality. But that morality also includes much tough love. The god of that morality can be very harsh with those who steal and and break the law. That morality does not preach salvation by government, but by personal conduct and personal charity.

I've heard of a saying in South America that you "can't fault someone for trying to get by" and to some degree this is reflected in the US. Would you fault a parent for stealing to feel starving children?

I'm not sure it's really that easy to relate.

-spence

I've heard that "saying" in North America as well. But "getting by" is vague, and when referring to criminal getting by, there is the implication that, if you're caught, nice try but you'll pay the penalty. One of the changes that Americans made was to provide for starving children--traditionally, much of that was done (and still is) by charity, but we've even legislated for such provisions. So it is not necessary to steal to feed starving children.

Does Whitman's illegal ex-maid have children?

[JohnR]

Originally Posted by spence

That was a joke.


That's not the point. I'm all for better control of our borders, but from her perspective...she was just trying to make a better life.



I don't think she could be charged under this section of code as she's already here...

-spence

I figured it was tongue in cheek , almost funny too.

You're all for better control, except for those that want a better life? Then perhaps she should apply for legal immigration status and legally enter this country. Do you think immigrants that come through breaking our laws to get in generally will be law abiding citizens after some kind of amnesty? Sorry, I just have an issue with people breaking the laws and then being given wrist slaps at best.

I think our biggest problem with immigration is that we do not get enough of the best and brightest that come here legally and retain them. Instead, half the elected government turns and looks the other way for the main influx of immigrants we have. But as a country, we stopped looking forward to improve ourselves and instead became the baby sitter.

"I don't think she could be charged under this section of code as she's already here..."

Law no longer applies. Nice.

[spence]

Originally Posted by JohnR

I figured it was tongue in cheek , almost funny too.

I'll take that as a compliment.

You're all for better control, except for those that want a better life?

Never said that.

Then perhaps she should apply for legal immigration status and legally enter this country. Do you think immigrants that come through breaking our laws to get in generally will be law abiding citizens after some kind of amnesty?

Amnesty is a tricky subject. There's a very good case against it, but there's also the 12M illegals already here. Doesn't seem feasible to round them all up and the economic fallout could be serious.

While we all hear of the exceptions in the news, I'd venture a guess most generally obey the law outside of being here illegally.

Sorry, I just have an issue with people breaking the laws and then being given wrist slaps at best.

The punishment should fit the crime, hence the AZ law change to make it criminal to be here without a valid status...so they can round 'em up and deport them which is difficult to do today for people who have been in the US for a long period of time.

I do think this is an area for the law to be more clear, it seems like an immigration judge has a lot of room to decide someone's fate. Regardless, I believe this should be in the Federal domain.

I think our biggest problem with immigration is that we do not get enough of the best and brightest that come here legally and retain them. Instead, half the elected government turns and looks the other way for the main influx of immigrants we have. But as a country, we stopped looking forward to improve ourselves and instead became the baby sitter.

Post 9/11 changes certainly seem to have impacted education and employment. Many IT business leaders have been very vocal about this.

"I don't think she could be charged under this section of code as she's already here..."

Law no longer applies. Nice.

No, it's just not the applicable part of the code.

-spence

[spence]

Originally Posted by detbuch

Americans (the U.S. kind) are more prone to change conditions in their country to their benefit rather than illegally migrating to another country. This country was founded by that type of revolution. There have been many revolutions south of the border. Perhaps they should keep trying till they get it right so their citizens don't have to leave. I hear they have some places that are amenable to the poor, like Cuba or Venezuala--good health care, everyone has a job or is taken care of. Those would be good models for the downtrodden to follow rather than risking everything to illegally sneak into such an ungrateful, oppressive, and selfish place like the U.S. Even Canada would be better, no?

I don't think revolutions are easy or spontaneous. They require the right combination of conditions at the right time. With the inherent corruption and poverty present in many countries, I can see how a more selfish solution might be attractive to some.

Although, with the natural resources, workforce and expanding business south of the border, it will be interesting to see how the economies and people respond over the next few decades.

Which moral implications and whose morality? A great deal of the moral implications that resulted in U.S. law, it is said, derived from Judeo/Christian morality. But that morality also includes much tough love. The god of that morality can be very harsh with those who steal and and break the law. That morality does not preach salvation by government, but by personal conduct and personal charity.

It's unfortunate that God chose to filter his morality through us imperfect people. (Note: This may not apply to those fortunate enough to speak directly to God.)

I've heard that "saying" in North America as well. But "getting by" is vague, and when referring to criminal getting by, there is the implication that, if you're caught, nice try but you'll pay the penalty.

Definitely a slippery slope there, but I'd think it's also why immigration issues are handled as both criminal and civil elements of Federal law.

One of the changes that Americans made was to provide for starving children--traditionally, much of that was done (and still is) by charity, but we've even legislated for such provisions. So it is not necessary to steal to feed starving children.

Agree, sometimes it does take a village

Does Whitman's illegal ex-maid have children?

Not sure but from what I gather she cleans a mean house.

-spence

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by spence

I don't think revolutions are easy or spontaneous. They require the right combination of conditions at the right time.

The same applies to illegally entering and staying in the U.S.--as you replied to Jimmy "it certainly doesn't look like it's the easy road to me."

But the 12 to 20 to 30 million illegals certainly could have joined with the oppressed masses they left behind to follow some glorious leader like Chavez or Castro to create a workers paradise back home instead of the quiet revolution of cheap labor in the U.S.

With the inherent corruption and poverty present in many countries, I can see how a more selfish solution might be attractive to some.

All political solutions are selfish.

Although, with the natural resources, workforce and expanding business south of the border, it will be interesting to see how the economies and people respond over the next few decades.

If we stop the illegal immigration, the economies and people will be forced to "respond." By allowing it, it provides the safety valve which allows the backward situations to perpetuate.

It's unfortunate that God chose to filter his morality through us imperfect people. (Note: This may not apply to those fortunate enough to speak directly to God.)

Sounds like maybe you spoke to god to know what he chose?

I would guess that it is that very imperfection which requires a moral compass. Perfection needs nothing else.

Then, again, what is a perfect person other than a god of sorts . . . or a Spence?

By the way, you didn't say to which moral implications or whose morality you referred.

Definitely a slippery slope there, but I'd think it's also why immigration issues are handled as both criminal and civil elements of Federal law.

Massive illegal immigration is not merely an "issue," but a major problem that affects the states, cities, "villages", and individuals in this country. Though immigration is in the purview of the Federal Government, it does not have the resources to handle it alone. It would require tens of thousands of new agents to be hired. Whereas, the assistance of local law enforcement provides a ready force that can assist in identifying illegals in the process of routine stops. This has already been done and agencies have been created for this to occur. It has manifestly been the intent of Congress, through its creation of those agencies that state and local entities are meant to assist. That the Feds are resisting implies to me that they are either protecting turf, which is odious considering they have stolen so much turf from the states, or else the current administration does not want to effectively stop illegal immigration.

Agree, sometimes it does take a village :-spence

"Villagers" should have the local authority to impose various local ordinances and even to choose their version of health insurance. The Federal Government was not created to be a local village, but to protect the diverse villages from foreign invasions, even invasions such as massive illegal immigration. And the villagers should be allowed to detain and hand over such illegals to the subservient Federal Government. But it seems that some top-down politicians like to use populist phrases like "it takes a village" but, in reality, they don't trust the villagers, and they really mean "it takes a central control of the villages."

[RIJIMMY]

Originally Posted by spence

Well, that's a stretch.

The simple fact is that most Americans, if put in her position, would have done exactly the same thing.


-spence

not true, most americans immigrated here legally. How can you say most would do the same thing?

[spence]

Originally Posted by RIJIMMY

not true, most americans immigrated here legally. How can you say most would do the same thing?

You misread the point, which is, that if you were born and grew up as she did, you would likely come to the US illegally if you thought it was the best way to get ahead because of limited opportunities at home.

-spence

[RIJIMMY]

Originally Posted by spence

You misread the point, which is, that if you were born and grew up as she did, you would likely come to the US illegally if you thought it was the best way to get ahead because of limited opportunities at home.

-spence

Hmm, like my great grandmother who grew up in a famine in Poland? Or my grandfather growing up in the slums of Lebanon?
Or how about my wifes parents, her Dad was an indentured servant living in India? Her house had no refrigeration and no inside plumbing.
Hmm, I wonder why they all came here legally? But I bet thats all not nearly as hard as she had it in Mexico. I wonder if that mentality of taking the easy road, sneaking in, falsifying documents, lying, cheating, I wonder if that makes you a stronger citizen vs. the hard way of coming here legally, demonstrating hard work and perseverance to your children, friends, neighbors. Which one leads to a better America?

[spence]

Originally Posted by RIJIMMY

Hmm, like my great grandmother who grew up in a famine in Poland? Or my grandfather growing up in the slums of Lebanon?
Or how about my wifes parents, her Dad was an indentured servant living in India? Her house had no refrigeration and no inside plumbing.
Hmm, I wonder why they all came here legally? But I bet thats all not nearly as hard as she had it in Mexico. I wonder if that mentality of taking the easy road, sneaking in, falsifying documents, lying, cheating, I wonder if that makes you a stronger citizen vs. the hard way of coming here legally, demonstrating hard work and perseverance to your children, friends, neighbors. Which one leads to a better America?

You don't think many would prefer to come here legally if they could?

I think the challenge for someone like the subject of this thread is that unless you have a family connection or can show that your job skills are in high demand it can take many years to be approved if ever. I've also seen some reports that the true cost (in $$$) can be quite prohibitive.

That certainly doesn't justify the behavior, but I don't think you can compare it to other situations which may or may not be equitable. We don't really know her true motivation for coming to the USA, and immigration policy has changed a lot over the past century reflecting (and shaping) many trends.

From what we see about drug violence and the trafficking of immigrants across the border, it certainly doesn't look like it's the "easy road" to me. More justification for better border security and prosecution of business that hire illegal workers.

Remember, to try and understand why someone would come here illegally doesn't mean your seeking to legitimize it.

-spence

[scottw]

hilarious

Originally Posted by spence

You misread the point, which is, that if you were born and grew up as she did, you would likely come to the US illegally if you thought it was the best way to get ahead because of limited opportunities at home.

-spence

Originally Posted by spence
That's not the point. I'm all for better control of our borders, but from her perspective...she was just trying to make a better life.

spence[/QUOTE]
a housekeeper who's here simply to improve her life pretty low on the list.





spence[/QUOTE]
We don't really know her true motivation for coming to the USA

[RIROCKHOUND]

Originally Posted by scottw

spence

a housekeeper who's here simply to improve her life pretty low on the list.


spence[/QUOTE]
We don't really know her true motivation for coming to the USA[/QUOTE]


That was her ploy. get a job working for Meg "Buy the election" Whitman, THEN set up a sleeper cell. of course! case cracked!

[scottw]

Originally Posted by RIROCKHOUND

a housekeeper who's here simply to improve her life pretty low on the list.


spence

We don't really know her true motivation for coming to the USA[/QUOTE]


That was her ploy. get a job working for Meg "Buy the election" Whitman, THEN set up a sleeper cell. of course! case cracked![/QUOTE]



guess I should have provided the entire quote(contradiction) so as not to confuse the brilliant global warming scientists

"I think the challenge for someone like the subject of this thread is that unless you have a family connection or can show that your job skills are in high demand it can take many years to be approved if ever. I've also seen some reports that the true cost (in $$$) can be quite prohibitive.

That certainly doesn't justify the behavior, but I don't think you can compare it to other situations which may or may not be equitable. We don't really know her true motivation for coming to the USA,

oh but we do!
Quote:
Originally Posted by spence
You misread the point, which is, that if you were born and grew up as she did, you would likely come to the US illegally if you thought it was the best way to get ahead because of limited opportunities at home.

-spence

Originally Posted by spence
That's not the point. I'm all for better control of our borders, but from her perspective...she was just trying to make a better life.

spence[/QUOTE]
a housekeeper who's here simply to improve her life pretty low on the list.
and immigration policy has changed a lot over the past century reflecting (and shaping) many trends."


stupidity like this is why we can't get anything done on immigration:

"That was her ploy. get a job working for Meg "Buy the election" Whitman, THEN set up a sleeper cell. of course! case cracked!"

she either can't be blamed for trying to improve her life or you are equating her with a terrorist if you suggest she shouldn't be here...