President Obama's health care--

[justplugit]

The President wants to have a health care program in place and
passed before the end of the year That leaves 6 months, excluding
congressional vacation over the summer to come up with an equitable, cost
efficient program estimated to cost ANOTHER Trillion dollars!!

He said today, he was asking for public input, but what are the specifics and when will we get them. Like you want to be thinking about health care over the summer when you finally have sometime not to think of the economic mess we are in.
Emergency, Emergency.

Common sense says an undertaking like that should be formulated gradually over a period of years, and in imho shouldn't even be considered until the
economy is sound and completely back on it's feet.

Another trillion $$$$. I bet you 3/4 of congress still doesn't even know what's
in the stimulus package, except for maybe the 640 Billion he stuck in there for health care that had nothing to do with stimulus.

[fishbones]

What comes after a trillion?

[Cool Beans]

Originally Posted by fishbones

What comes after a trillion?

I'm sure by the end of Obama's 1st term, whatever that number is, it will be common knowledge.
"the national debt is now 4 Gazillion, Bazillion dollars"

[spence]

Originally Posted by justplugit

Common sense says an undertaking like that should be formulated gradually over a period of years, and in imho shouldn't even be considered until the economy is sound and completely back on it's feet.

We haven't seen a plan so it may be too early to say how rapid they will propose to enact change. That being said, a large system of 300+ Million people can only change so quickly. I'd be surprised if this wasn't a multi-year proposal.

As for the part about the economy, that doesn't make a lot of sense. The looming health care problem is bigger in $$$ terms than any pressing issue we face, and I'm not sure there is a free market solution. Waiting 2-5 years for the economy to recover could very well put the solution out of reach, if it isn't already.

I was a bit surprised Obama flipped on taxing health benefits after making it a campaign issue. While this would look to be a progressive tax, it's certainly going to get some serious opposition and is a looser from a PR perspective.

-spence

[justplugit]

[QUOTE=spence;69295

Waiting 2-5 years for the economy to recover could very well put the solution out of reach, if it isn't already.
-spence[/QUOTE]



Then so be it, if we can't afford it now then it's not the time to do it.
It's this credit card mentality that has been a big part of getting us into this financial mess in the first place.

[spence]

Originally Posted by justplugit

Then so be it, if we can't afford it now then it's not the time to do it.
It's this credit card mentality that has been a big part of getting us into this financial mess in the first place.

The problem isn't even really about affordability, it is about priority and solution.

We can't afford not to address this issue. It's like a leak eroding the foundation of your house.

-spence

[justplugit]

Originally Posted by spence

We can't afford not to address this issue. It's like a leak eroding the foundation of your house.

-spence

I agree it has to be addressed but a quick patch of sand to fix the foundation
will just lead to more problems. I worked in the medical field for 34 years
and have seen the problems develop.

Like FB said, a large part is due to high malpractice insurance $$$ but also new technology.
Twenty years ago if you went to the Doc with a stomach ache he would RX some Mylanta and send you home. Now because he is afraid of malpractice
he'll order an ultrasound, maybe an upper GI or CAT scan or whatever. $$$$$$$

First, before anything ,we need strict TORT reform. Won't happen though, as 90% of Congress is made up of lawyers.

Government could help with some regulations, but if it takes over health care it will be a disaster making medicare and social security look like a well oiled machine.
A quick fix, emergency, emergency as played out in Obama's first 5 months is not what we need. Haste makes waste.

[Raven]

i have decided that my ability to feel what's going on
inside my own Body is a better assessment of my health
than a Doctors 5 minute opinion and corresponding
pill recommendation.

[Cool Beans]

One thing that makes me nervous, too many liberals think this

Originally Posted by spence

I'm not sure there is a free market solution.
-spence

What do you propose? Complete government control? I'm curious on your response, if Capitalism (free market) can't fix it, do you honestly believe that Socialism (government control) can fix it?

[JohnnyD]

Originally Posted by Cool Beans

What do you propose? Complete government control? I'm curious on your response, if Capitalism (free market) can't fix it, do you honestly believe that Socialism (government control) can fix it?

While at the moment I don't know nearly enough about any proposed health care reform, I don't believe a capitalistic approach can resolve all situations.

Can a government controlled solution work? A quick look at Social Security and Welfare can answer that question.

A purely capitalistic approach is what has brought us to the insane costs of health care that currently exist. Capitalism is what brought the banks down - it is certainly not the supreme method of resolving financial issues. Some? yes... all? no.

I would be curious though at how effective the Canadian and UK health care systems are.

[fishbones]

Originally Posted by JohnnyD

A purely capitalistic approach is what has brought us to the insane costs of health care that currently exist.

I would be curious though at how effective the Canadian and UK health care systems are.

Johhny,
A huge part of the crazy cost of healthcare is malpractice insurance for doctors. These costs have to be passed on to patients by doctors and hospitals. I know you work or worked in the medical field, so you must have some knowledge about this. Many of the best doctors coming out of medical schools now go into research because it's almost financially impossible to go into private practice and make a living while paying off student loans. That's why you see so many doctors trained outside of the US practicing medicine here.

I'm not sure about Europe, but many Canadians who need major surgeries come to the US because the Canadian healthcare system is not on par with what we have here. Also, the waits in emergency rooms in Canada make the emergency room waits in the US seem like they go by in the blink of an eye.

[scottw]

For anyone that doesn't understand how rationed healthcare works, here is a 1-minute demonstration.

The da Vinci system is a robotic system used for MIS, minimally invasive surgery. It is cutting-edge medicine for such surgeries as prostate surgery.

Use the Surgery Finder (linked at source URL) as follows:

1. Go to the URL. Click on the radio button that says "Hospitals".

2. From the "International" drop down list, select "Canada" and click the blue arrow.

You will notice that there are 9 hospitals that have the da Vinci system; with Canada's population of 33 million, that means that the ratio is 1 system per 3.67 million population.

Back up, and instead of choosing "Canada" choose your state - in my case, I live in PA. Get the results again.

In the state of PA, there are 30; but since one is a VA Hospital, let's say there are 29 hospitals with the da Vinci system.

That means that there is 1 system for every 420,000 people in the state.

Los Angeles County has more Da Vincis than all of Canada.




The best argument against canadacare would be the fact that a Canadian MP, Belinda Caroline Stronach, went to California for cancer treatment.



For Prostatectomies, there are 2 surgeons listed in Canada. There are 6 in UTAH.


There are more MRI machines in Philadelphia than in Canada.



All Americans need to know is that every British and Canadian politician who runs for office claims, "I will reduce hospital and medical wait times".
Having to wait 18 months for surgery (If it's allowed by the National Service) will be quite a shock for Americans.


Anyone who thinks Canada is a good model for healthcare needs to visit a hospital in a border state.
You don't even need to go in....just cruise the parking lot, counting Canadian license plates. 'Nuff said.

But Obama will figure it out...HE's AN EXPERT! or maybe he'll dish it to his wife who has the all hospital experience....diversity coordinator???...$300,000...no wonder medical care is so expensive with high paying no-show useless jobs like that!


I like this one..."Capitalism is what brought the banks down"

[JohnnyD]

Originally Posted by fishbones

Johhny,
A huge part of the crazy cost of healthcare is malpractice insurance for doctors. These costs have to be passed on to patients by doctors and hospitals. I know you work or worked in the medical field, so you must have some knowledge about this. Many of the best doctors coming out of medical schools now go into research because it's almost financially impossible to go into private practice and make a living while paying off student loans. That's why you see so many doctors trained outside of the US practicing medicine here.

On the other hand, an entire industry has been created helping American patient's travel to other countries for medical operations because the costs in the US are too high.

You are absolutely right that malpractice suits and the cost of insurance are a huge issue for doctors. Another part is the ridiculous price of pharmaceuticals.

Limitations need to be put into place with regards to malpractice suits and doctor liability. The slightest mistake and the doctors are found guilty and ordered to pay insane fines, where as only gross negligence should make them liable for amounts over $125k.

[PaulS]

FB is right on the malpractice and also the costs of Drs. ordering many unnessary tests to protect themselves from suits.


Check out this link for a long article in the New Yorker for another reason.

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2...printable=true

[fishbones]

I agree, Joe. If a guy who volunteers to go overseas and protect me and my family from people who want us all dead decides he wants to smoke a cigarette, by all means smoke up buddy! Any little enjoyment they can get while out on the front lines is o.k. by me. They have the most important job I can think of.

[fishbones]

Johhny, I'm about 99.9% sure on this since it's my job to be sure about it. Check the Mass DOL website. I terminated a manager after 7 weeks on the job and he was able to collect unemployment from our account. It was a percentage of what he got and the rest came from the "balancing account". The balancing account is just what they call the pool of money collected from all employers for unemployment insurance. So even when a company is not the chargeable employer, they really are still paying a small amount into it.

[JohnnyD]

Did you appeal it?

My appeal came at the advice of our lawyer and resulted with a decision in our favor.

However, this wouldn't be the first time MA DOL made a decision that went against current regulations. So maybe I just lucked out. I do know that I never paid an additional cent for it.

[fishbones]

Originally Posted by JohnnyD

Did you appeal it?

My appeal came at the advice of our lawyer and resulted with a decision in our favor.

However, this wouldn't be the first time MA DOL made a decision that went against current regulations. So maybe I just lucked out. I do know that I never paid an additional cent for it.

I called someone at DOL and they said it was unlikely it would get reversed because it the termination was not for "disqualifying reasons". I don't really have the time to go to appeals anymore and when I send Mangers or Operations Managers, they usually lose because they don't know what to say.

[JohnnyD]

Originally Posted by fishbones

I called someone at DOL and they said it was unlikely it would get reversed because it the termination was not for "disqualifying reasons". I don't really have the time to go to appeals anymore and when I send Mangers or Operations Managers, they usually lose because they don't know what to say.

Makes sense. Even my business partner was somewhat useless at one of the meetings and initially, I wasn't going to go. A good thing I had gone because I'm sure we wouldn't have won the decision.

[Littoral E]

The only reason any other country's medical systems still work is because of the US medical system and profitable research. If the US goes to a government-controlled system, research will die, and so will billions around the world.

0bamacare may appear to be a decent short-term solution 9if you are a commie) but it is certainly not a long term solution.

the 19 TRILLION price tag isn't doable either unless capitalism is crushed.

[JohnnyD]

Originally Posted by Littoral E

The only reason any other country's medical systems still work is because of the US medical system and profitable research. If the US goes to a government-controlled system, research will die, and so will billions around the world.

0bamacare may appear to be a decent short-term solution 9if you are a commie) but it is certainly not a long term solution.

the 19 TRILLION price tag isn't doable either unless capitalism is crushed.

What part imagination land did you get your "facts" from?

[justplugit]

Looks like the Congressional Budget Office disagrees with Obama's costs
saying the current plans would add to the nation's long term Health Care costs rather than reduce them.

A bi-partisan group of Governors are not to happy saying the plan would call on their state Medicare plans to pick up 30% of the costs.

[JohnnyD]

I wish something like this was being handled by a more bipartisan Congress.

[Raven]

we have a super computer
or two...

why are they not being used ?

to help us Mortals... with these grand decisions

[justplugit]

Originally Posted by JohnnyD

I wish something like this was being handled by a more bipartisan Congress.

I agree JD.
This is a far reaching issue that deserves a well thought out program rather than
a one party push for political reasons.

These Programs keep growing in time until there is nothing left to fund them.

Pushing 30% of the cost of Health Care on the States, a plan originally meant to
help women with children making less then $10,000/yr, is a typical example of how these programs grow.

Meantime, the Social Security Program, the biggest Ponzi Scheme ever put over
on the American People, has grown close to extinction.

Super computers, don't get votes, Rav.

[MAC]

If Obamacare comes to be, how long before the government starts to dictate the other parts of our lives ?

You can't smoke (it is hazardous to your health).

You can't drink alcohol (it hurts your liver).

You are overweight, so no more McDonalds

No more fossil fuel powered vehicles

no more,no more......

Let's hope this hits a wall.

[MAC]

I do agree that healthcare costs are spiraling out of control. But Obamacare isn't the solution.

How about we DO AWAY with ambulance chasers who advertise on TV...

Limiting these types of law suits would go a long way in making health care more affordable IMHO.

[justplugit]

Originally Posted by MAC

I do agree that healthcare costs are spiraling out of control. But Obamacare isn't the solution.

How about we DO AWAY with ambulance chasers who advertise on TV...

Limiting these types of law suits would go a long way in making health care more affordable IMHO.

Bingo Mac, pass Tort reform to limit malpractice law suites which will
eliminate unnecessary medical tests and reduce the cost of medical malpractice insurance and you'll lower medical costs immediately.

JD, if i am reading your question right, here in lies the rub.

We don't know what is in the current bill so we can't compare the cost
of the two. Which is the least costly, what is the scope of the plan, how
will we pay for the plan, what will be the effect on current private plans,
will companies do away with their plans to their employees?

We were promised transparency and yet the only thing we
have to go on is Obama's word that this is another emergency and
you will be able to keep your own current plan if you choose.

Not for nothin, but even he doesn't know everything that's in the plan.

No axe to grind here, but this is Obama's plan and it is ALL of us who will end up paying for it. I just want a fair shake with knowing as much
as my senators do before a vote is taken.

What's the rush.

[JohnnyD]

The problem isn't in the foundation of the health care system. It's a broken implementation at the state level.

What's the difference if people are getting government subsidized health care or the current system where the feds pay a hospital direct for taking care of people without health care?

[Raven]

preservatives and additives have created poor health in this country..... we call the USA

We have the highest level of agriculture
and yet the lowest level of Nutritional health
with our citizens ....

health care:

it didn't get done during the Clinton Administration
or the Bush Administration

So i don't expect it to get done now........
going on vacation is much more important.