Gun-Trained Teacher Accidentally Shoots Gun In Calif. High School Classroom

[spence]

https://www.newyorker.com/humor/boro...from-misfiring

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by spence

https://www.newyorker.com/humor/boro...from-misfiring

And I know a few dozen families in Newtown, who would gouge their own eyes out, for the teachers there to have been armed.

As I said, the thoughtless ideologues, focus on the one side of the cost/benefit analysis that serves their agenda, and ignore the other side. Too bad the places where you get your news, don't have cartoons showing tiny caskets that are not lowered into the ground because of the occasional (admittedly rare) benefit of having armed security around...

[Pete F.]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

And I know a few dozen families in Newtown, who would gouge their own eyes out, for the teachers there to have been armed.

As I said, the thoughtless ideologues, focus on the one side of the cost/benefit analysis that serves their agenda, and ignore the other side. Too bad the places where you get your news, don't have cartoons showing tiny caskets that are not lowered into the ground because of the occasional (admittedly rare) benefit of having armed security around...

So you are going to save some fraction of 10 children per year, and not worry about the 1500 other children who are killed or 15,000 who are injured by gun violence.
Perhaps the fractional savings of having children not ride bicycles to school would be worthwhile, what about those parents? There are many more of those than parents of children killed by school shooters and no one has the right to a bicycle.
How will you explain the cost benefit analysis to the parent of a child shot negligently by an armed school teacher/guard?
Or when the school shooter uses the armed school teacher/guards gun to kill someone?

[spence]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

And I know a few dozen families in Newtown, who would gouge their own eyes out, for the teachers there to have been armed.

Or simply for a properly secured entryway and a lack of easy access to a Bushmaster XM-15.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by spence

Or simply for a properly secured entryway and a lack of easy access to a Bushmaster XM-15.

Major Hasan used a handgun, and killed 13 soldiers, shot 30 more. I have stated many times that I am convinced there is a reason why a lot of these kooks choose weapons that look like the AR-15, but you or I could walk into an elementary school with a handgun and easily kill 20. I'm not saying I like the AR-15. I'm saying you can make a compelling argument, that banning them, might not do much. But it might save SOME lives (see what I did there? I mentioned the pro AND the con - try it sometime, I promise that your brain won't explode, you might even like how it feels to show some intellectual honesty).

As to the entryway, how did Cruz get in? I never learned that...But my school is secure, has one locked door with a buzzer. I can make up a lot of different stories to get in. I've gone in the middle of the day, rung the buzzer, and told whoever answered that my son forgot his saxophone and I was there to drop it off. They don't confirm before they buzz me in. But security is of course, part of it.

I wouldn't arm teachers. I'd have soldiers.

[JohnR]

Armed teachers should be #24 on the list of solutions and the few that can do it are by far the exception to the rule.

Short version, you have to prevent people that should not have access to a weapon from getting hands on them.

You need to work out a way people that should not have access are flagged, then heard in a court in order not to overly infringe on their rights.

You need to vastly improve training and school security.

There have surely been studies done to come up with alternatives that enhance security.

Proven: Hanging signs stating "Gun Free Zone" are about as effective as signs stating "Drug Free Zones"

[PaulS]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

And I know a few dozen families in Newtown, who would gouge their own eyes out, for the teachers there to have been armed.

And yet these Newtown families would disagree with you.

http://wnpr.org/post/sandy-hook-pare...rming-teachers
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by PaulS

And yet these Newtown families would disagree with you.

http://wnpr.org/post/sandy-hook-pare...rming-teachers
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

I dont care what NPR says, those parents wish there were armed teachers in that school on that day. It's not possible that they didn't wish the teachers were armed that day.

Your NPR link quoted one of the Sandy Hook families. One. One is less than sixteen. I know math isn't a strong suit for liberals, but surely even NPR knows that 1 < 16.

[PaulS]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

I dont care what NPR says, those parents wish there were armed teachers in that school on that day. It's not possible that they didn't wish the teachers were armed that day.

Your NPR link quoted one of the Sandy Hook families. One. One is less than sixteen. I know math isn't a strong suit for liberals, but surely even NPR knows that 1 < 16.

Actually sounds like they discussed it with two people although there are quotes from one. Do you have any quotes from those "dozens of families" who you claimed wish teachers had guns that day?


And here's a quote from Nicole Hockley from another article.

“Rather than arm them with a firearm,” Ms. Hockley said of teachers, “I would rather arm them with the knowledge of how to prevent these acts from happening in the first place.”

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[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by PaulS

Actually sounds like they discussed it with two people although there are quotes from one. Do you have any quotes from those "dozens of families" who you claimed wish teachers had guns that day?


And here's a quote from Nicole Hockley from another article.

“Rather than arm them with a firearm,” Ms. Hockley said of teachers, “I would rather arm them with the knowledge of how to prevent these acts from happening in the first place.”

Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

the article you posted said Newton families - plural. I Saw a husband and wide comment about teachers. one family. 1<plural.

Paul, I'm also opposed to arming teachers, but I like a little honesty.

"Do you have any quotes from those "dozens of families" who you claimed wish teachers had guns that day?"

Nope. But I have common sense bursting out of my ears.

[zimmy]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

Nope. But I have common sense bursting out of my ears.

There is that back patting again.

[zimmy]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

And I know a few dozen families in Newtown, who would gouge their own eyes out, for the teachers there to have been armed.

When you say you know them, do you know them? I don't know a few dozen, but I do personally know people who lost a child, a former colleague who lost a child, and have a good friend who had kids in Sandy Hook School that day and I have NEVER heard them say they wish the teachers were armed. Pretty sure you are making that up and it is a pretty egregious thing to state that if you don't actually know it. I understand the sentiment you are referring to, but many of those parents have dedicated their lives to preventing it happening to other people and I don't know one of them who is promoting armed teachers. I do know some of them are appalled by the idea.

[Sea Dangles]

Originally Posted by zimmy

When you say you know them, do you know them? I don't know a few dozen, but I do personally know people who lost a child, a former colleague who lost a child, and have a good friend who had kids in Sandy Hook School that day and I have NEVER heard them say they wish the teachers were armed. Pretty sure you are making that up and it is a pretty egregious thing to state that if you don't actually know it. I understand the sentiment you are referring to, but many of those parents have dedicated their lives to preventing it happening to other people and I don't know one of them who is promoting armed teachers. I do know some of them are appalled by the idea.

It is easy to sit in a chair while you are supposed to be working and be the judge and jury. Sometime s the context of such statements are lost on certain individuals. I think what Jim is trying to explain is that ANY PARENT who lost a child that day at Sandy Hook would have embraced ANY measure which could have prevented their child's death. Obviously the children were defenseless and there were no heroes in the building that could use martial arts or fancy words to help save a life. Let's not pretend that if any of us finds ourselves in a situation where the outlook appears dire and the bad guys have guns as well as bad intentions then we would hope for any way to defend ourselves and our loved ones. Who is going to be the first fool here that gets a look at the news and hears that a shooter is at their children's school with plenty of ammo and there is NOBODY to defend their son or daughter. Can you honestly say you would just sit there and HOPE for the best? Yes, we have to do better at preventing a situation like this in the first place. But what happens when that doesn't work?
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[Pete F.]

Originally Posted by Sea Dangles

It is easy to sit in a chair while you are supposed to be working and be the judge and jury. Sometime s the context of such statements are lost on certain individuals. I think what Jim is trying to explain is that ANY PARENT who lost a child that day at Sandy Hook would have embraced ANY measure which could have prevented their child's death. Obviously the children were defenseless and there were no heroes in the building that could use martial arts or fancy words to help save a life. Let's not pretend that if any of us finds ourselves in a situation where the outlook appears dire and the bad guys have guns as well as bad intentions then we would hope for any way to defend ourselves and our loved ones. Who is going to be the first fool here that gets a look at the news and hears that a shooter is at their children's school with plenty of ammo and there is NOBODY to defend their son or daughter. Can you honestly say you would just sit there and HOPE for the best? Yes, we have to do better at preventing a situation like this in the first place. But what happens when that doesn't work?
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

These are in the US
There are 74 million children under 18 in the US, I didn't check to see just how many are in school, but lets say 50 million.
Roughly 20,000 children die each year for any reason.
On average 10 children a year have been killed by guns in schools over the past 25 years.
On average 100 children a year have been killed riding their bicycles to school each year for the past 25 years
On average 1500 children a year are killed in gun violence
On average 15000 children a year are injured by guns
On average 570 children a year are killed in car accidents
Just where are our priorities?

[Sea Dangles]

Originally Posted by Pete F.

These are in the US
There are 74 million children under 18 in the US, I didn't check to see just how many are in school, but lets say 50 million.
Roughly 20,000 children die each year for any reason.
On average 10 children a year have been killed by guns in schools over the past 25 years.
On average 100 children a year have been killed riding their bicycles to school each year for the past 25 years
On average 1500 children a year are killed in gun violence
On average 15000 children a year are injured by guns
On average 570 children a year are killed in car accidents
Just where are our priorities?

Not sure about that but my priority is to raise my children to grow up to be independent, kind people. They deserve to be protected regardless of where or how.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by zimmy

When you say you know them, do you know them? I don't know a few dozen, but I do personally know people who lost a child, a former colleague who lost a child, and have a good friend who had kids in Sandy Hook School that day and I have NEVER heard them say they wish the teachers were armed. Pretty sure you are making that up and it is a pretty egregious thing to state that if you don't actually know it. I understand the sentiment you are referring to, but many of those parents have dedicated their lives to preventing it happening to other people and I don't know one of them who is promoting armed teachers. I do know some of them are appalled by the idea.

I came to know two families, whom I met afterwards when I brought my pet therapy dog to the scene and then to their homes. I would never ask them anything about the incident, so I didn't take a poll.

"it is a pretty egregious thing to state that if you don't actually know it

I apologize, didn't mean it that way, but I hear you.

"I don't know one of them who is promoting armed teachers"

I don't either. I was speculating. I'm very comfortable with the speculation.

How about if I phrase it this way, instead of making a specific reference...I'm comfortable that 99% of parents out there, when informed there is a mass shooter at school determined to kill as many children as possible before being stopped by police, would rather have armed teachers than wait for the police. I'm sure I am correct.

If you or Paul disagree, can you tell me on what basis you'd rather wait for the cops to show up? Because of the chance that if the teacher tried to intervene, he'd shoot innocent kids? That's obviously a possibility, which is why I'd rather see soldiers in the schools than armed teachers. But it's incredibly unlikely that someone trying to intervene, could accidentally cause nearly the carnage of someone trying to cause as much carnage as possible.