Good bye America

[RIJIMMY]

You're only a liberal when you agree with the liberals.
90% of all americans would agree with this, but NPR fired this guy! What a f'in shame.

I mean, look, Bill, I'm not a bigot," Williams continued. "You know the kind of books I've written about the civil rights movement in this country. But when I get on the plane, I got to tell you, if I see people who are in Muslim garb and I think, you know, they are identifying themselves first and foremost as Muslims, I get worried. I get nervous."

whats so bad about that?????

[The Dad Fisherman]

Nothing

[FishermanTim]

I think the toilets at NPR are severely backed up, because the sh*t is spilling out over the airwaves!

[spence]

I watched the entire video this morning, it provides some valuable context to that quote.

While I do think NPR might have over reacted by firing him, I did find Williams comments to be really strange. He wasn't just showing some personal candor (i.e. Muslims make me nervous) but he linked the entire thing to terrorism in context of a question from O'Riley on if there's a problem with Islam.

So someone who was supposed to be behaving as an "impartial" journalist was seen to be condemning all Muslims for the actions of radicals.

NPR obviously felt this was a breech of professionalism based on their standards. I'd note they don't have a business model built on provocative punditry like FOX News or MSNBC.

Perhaps Juan will be able to keep his slot as the token Lib on FOX. I'm sure he likes having Brit Hume piss all over him day after day.

-spence

[scottw]

Originally Posted by spence

NPR obviously felt this was a breech of professionalism based on their standards.
spence

[RIJIMMY]

yes, spence. There is a problem with Islam if it makes people nervous. The muslim community should be responding by saying. "Wow, we didnt know this and we respect your opinion. We will continue to work with all Americans to address their concerns and join together to fight the root causes of these concerns. Radical Exremists and mis-information on Islam"

But no - they silence those that offend them.

Firing people based on their beliefs. The new America

BTW - I've been trying to send a comment in to NPR.org for over an hour and their server is jammed, cant send anything in. Im sure its a ton of support for their decision.

[spence]

Originally Posted by RIJIMMY

yes, spence. There is a problem with Islam if it makes people nervous. The muslim community should be responding by saying. "Wow, we didnt know this and we respect your opinion. We will continue to work with all Americans to address their concerns and join together to fight the root causes of these concerns. Radical Exremists and mis-information on Islam"

Shouldn't people also be asking why they're afraid of Muslims?

I'd think that would have been a good question for Williams to ask of himself in the segment. Instead he tried to justify his own fear by associating it with terrorism...hence the problem and where he crossed the line.

I don't see most people trying to reach out to understand Islam, in fact it's demonized by the Right as mocked as a weakness. Considering the anti-Islamic sentiment in the country is at an all time high, I'm not sure I'd expect Muslims to be all that understanding when they're stereotyped, and then the expectation is that it's all their fault it happened in the first place!

Like I said before, I think firing Williams was an over reaction, but that doesn't mean he didn't make a pretty offensive remark.

Personally I think he was just patronizing O'Riley and got a little loose with his comments.

-spence

[RIJIMMY]

Spence,

Extremist muslims have made a well publicized appeal to kill Americans. They have tried many times - how many reports and convictions of failed terror reports have we seen the last 6 years. We just sentenced a nut to prison for trying to kill Americans in Time Square. On 9/11, they were successful. Extremists dont carry a flag, dont wear a uniform. We cant identify them, except for one factor. They're middle eastern and muslims. So its just plain common sense for Americans to show some trepidation or reserve when viewing people that fit that description. If the black panthers made similar threats and delivered on them, common sense would dictate that most people would be cautious around black men. Its common sense.
While we think this is "new" as you say Islamaphobia is rampant, let me challenge you. Last weekend was watching a classic movie from my youth with my kids. Back to the Future. Anyone remember who pulled up in the VW van and shot Doc? Anyone remember why?
Its was the Libyians, dressed in islamic garb and shooting AK-47s, why? Doc was supposed to deliver plutonium to build a nuclear bomb! Over 25 yrs ago Spence and it was common place to see Islamists as a threat. No one watched that movie and said" Libyians as terrorists? Build a Nuclear Bomb? But Islam is a religion of peace! Thats Crazy!"
Couple that with the last 9 years, and if you dont get it, I cant help you.

[scottw]

Originally Posted by spence

Shouldn't people also be asking why they're afraid of Muslims?

Considering the anti-Islamic sentiment in the country is at an all time high,

-spence

Yup...everyday there's another story or stories of innocent, peace loving muslims in this country being beaten, mistreated or maligned by intolerant, anti-islamic Americans...hard to believe what we've become...

[JohnnyD]

I posted this in the "Fired" thread, but it's necessary here as well...

"Anyone who tells you that they don't get concerned, even briefly, when anyone of apparent Middle Eastern decent is on a plane with them is a liar."

[Insert RIJIMMY quip about liberals here]

[spence]

Originally Posted by RIJIMMY

Extremist muslims have made a well publicized appeal to kill Americans.

And yet I think extremist Muslims have killed far more non-American Muslims than Americans.

They have tried many times - how many reports and convictions of failed terror reports have we seen the last 6 years.

Not very many if the problem is really Islam. I think there have been a few hundred and many of these are somewhat lower on the threat scale. Out of a billion Muslims worldwide that doesn't make for a lot of terrorists.

We just sentenced a nut to prison for trying to kill Americans in Time Square.

Don't forget that he was also an American citizen, business person and wore more Kenneth Cole than Islamic dress.

On 9/11, they were successful. Extremists dont carry a flag, dont wear a uniform. We cant identify them, except for one factor. They're middle eastern and muslims.

Just like Timothy McVeigh, Terry Nichols, Michael Fortier and Coleen LaRose?

You might want to take this comment back, it's pretty ugly.

So its just plain common sense for Americans to show some trepidation or reserve when viewing people that fit that description.

Common sense would really dictate that the trepidation be somewhat on parity with the actual threat. The chances of someone in Islamic dress on an airplane actually being a terrorist out to do you harm are probably as low (or lower) than the chances of you dying from an accident on the same plane.

If the black panthers made similar threats and delivered on them, common sense would dictate that most people would be cautious around black men.

What percentage of black men are Black Panthers? You're stereotyping again...might want to take this one back as well.

While we think this is "new" as you say Islamaphobia is rampant, let me challenge you. Last weekend was watching a classic movie from my youth with my kids. Back to the Future. Anyone remember who pulled up in the VW van and shot Doc? Anyone remember why?
Its was the Libyians, dressed in islamic garb and shooting AK-47s, why? Doc was supposed to deliver plutonium to build a nuclear bomb! Over 25 yrs ago Spence and it was common place to see Islamists as a threat. No one watched that movie and said" Libyians as terrorists? Build a Nuclear Bomb? But Islam is a religion of peace! Thats Crazy!"

The movie is from 1985, made during a period when the US was in a tense period with Libya, making them an ideal target. While a Muslim, I'd consider Gaddafi's identity to be more of a socialist or Arab nationalist and not really an Islamist at all. The fact that he sought reconciliation with the West might have been partially a survival instinct, but certainly isn't the behavior of someone driven by dogma.

-spence

[JohnR]

Originally Posted by RIJIMMY

While we think this is "new" as you say Islamaphobia is rampant, let me challenge you. Last weekend was watching a classic movie from my youth with my kids. Back to the Future. Anyone remember who pulled up in the VW van and shot Doc? Anyone remember why?
Its was the Libyians, dressed in islamic garb and shooting AK-47s, why? Doc was supposed to deliver plutonium to build a nuclear bomb! Over 25 yrs ago Spence and it was common place to see Islamists as a threat. No one watched that movie and said" Libyians as terrorists? Build a Nuclear Bomb? But Islam is a religion of peace! Thats Crazy!"
Couple that with the last 9 years, and if you dont get it, I cant help you.

Or the bombings of la Belle Discotek in Berlin Germany (I was still living there at the time). Kobar towers, The Embassies, Pretty much anything Abu Nidal. Pan Am.

Mr Klinghoffer is unavailable for comment.

Here courtesy of Wikipedia while I cook dinner:

* 26 February 1993 – World Trade Center bombing, New York City. 6 killed.
* 13 March 1993 – 1993 Bombay bombings. Mumbai, India. 250 dead, 700 injured.
* 28 July 1994 – Buenos Aires, Argentina. Vehicle suicide bombing attack against AMIA building, the local Jewish community representation. 85 dead, more than 300 injured.
* 24 December 1994 – Air France Flight 8969 hijacking in Algiers by 3 members of Armed Islamic Group of Algeria and another terrorist. 7 killed including 4 hijackers.
* 25 June 1996 – Khobar Towers bombing, 20 killed, 372 wounded.
* 17 November 1997 – Luxor attack, 6 armed Islamic terrorists attack tourists at Egypts famous Luxor Ruins. 68 foreign tourists killed.
* 14 February 1998 – Bombing in Coimbatore, Tamil Nadu, India. 13 bombs explode within a 12 km radius. 46 killed and over 200 injured.
* 7 August 1998 – 1998 United States embassy bombings in Tanzania and Kenya. 224 dead. 4000+ injured.
* 4 September 1999 – A series of bombing attacks in several cities of Russia, nearly 300 killed.
* 12 October 2000 – Attack on the USS cole in the Yemeni port of Aden.
* 11 September 2001 – 4 planes hijacked and crashed into World Trade Center and The Pentagon by 19 hijackers. Nearly 3000 dead.[208]
* 13 December 2001 – Suicide attack on Indian parliament in New Delhi by Pakistan-based Islamist terrorist organizations, Jaish-E-Mohammad and Lashkar-e-Toiba. Aimed at eliminating the top leadership of India and causing anarchy in the country. 7 dead, 12 injured.
* 27 March 2002 – Suicide bomb attack on a Passover Seder in a Hotel in Netanya, Israel. 30 dead, 133 injured.
* 30 March 2002 and 24 November 2002 - Attacks on the Hindu Raghunath temple, India. Total 25 dead.
* 7 May 2002 – Bombing in al-Arbaa, Algeria. 49 dead, 117 injured.
* 24 September 2002 – Machine Gun attack on Hindu temple in Ahmedabad, India. 31 dead, 86 injured.[209][210]
* 12 October 2002 – Bombing in Bali nightclub. 202 killed, 300 injured.[211]
* 16 May 2003 – Casablanca Attacks – 4 simultaneous attacks in Casablanca killing 33 civilians (mostly Moroccans) carried by Salafia Jihadia.
* 11 March 2004 – Multiple bombings on trains near Madrid, Spain. 191 killed, 1460 injured (alleged link to Al-Qaeda).
* 1 September 2004 - Beslan school hostage crisis, approximately 344 civilians including 186 children killed.[212][213]
* 2 November 2004 – The murder of Theo van Gogh (film director) by Amsterdam-born jihadist Mohammed Bouyeri.[214]
* 4 February 2005 – Muslim terrorists attacked the Christian community in Demsa, Nigeria, killing 36 people, destroying property and displacing an additional 3000 people.
* 5 July 2005 - Attack at the Hindu Ram temple at Ayodhya, India; one of the most holy sites of Hinduism. 6 dead.
* 7 July 2005 – Multiple bombings in London Underground. 53 killed by four suicide bombers. Nearly 700 injured.
* 23 July 2005 – Bomb attacks at Sharm el-Sheikh, an Egyptian resort city, at least 64 people killed.
* 29 October 2005 – 29 October 2005 Delhi bombings, India. Over 60 killed and over 180 injured in a series of three attacks in crowded markets and a bus, just 2 days before the Diwali festival.[215]
* 9 November 2005 – 2005 Amman bombings. a series of coordinated suicide attacks on hotels in Amman, Jordan. Over 60 killed and 115 injured.[216][217] Four attackers including a husband and wife team were involved.[218]
* 7 March 2006 – 2006 Varanasi bombings, India. A series of attacks in the Sankath Mochan Hanuman temple and Cantonment Railway Station in the Hindu holy city of Varanasi. 28 killed and over 100 injured.[219]
* 11 July 2006 – 11 July 2006 Mumbai train bombings, Mumbai, India; a series of seven bomb blasts that took place over a period of 11 minutes on the Suburban Railway in Mumbai. 209 killed and over 700 injured.
* 14 August 2007 – Qahtaniya bombings: Four suicide vehicle bombers massacred nearly 800 members of northern Iraq's Yazidi sect in the deadliest Iraq war's attack to date.
* 26 July 2008 – 2008 Ahmedabad bombings, India. Islamic terrorists detonate at least 21 explosive devices in the heart of this industrial capital, leaving at least 56 dead and 200 injured. A Muslim group calling itself the Indian Mujahideen claims responsibility. Indian authorities believe that extremists with ties to Pakistan and/or Bangladesh are likely responsible and are intent on inciting communal violence.[220] Investigation by Indian police led to the eventual arrest of a number of terrorists suspected of carrying out the blasts, most of whom belong to a well-known terrorist group, The Students Islamic Movement of India.[221]
* 13 September 2008 – Bombing series in Delhi, India. Pakistani extremist groups plant bombs at several places including India Gate, out of which the ones at Karol Bagh, Connaught Place and Greater Kailash explode leaving around 30 people dead and 130 injured, followed by another attack two weeks later at the congested Mehrauli area, leaving 3 people dead.
* 26 November 2008 – Muslim extremists kill at least 174 people and wound numerous others in a series of coordinated attacks on India's largest city and financial capital, Mumbai. A group calling itself the Deccan Mujaheddin claims responsibility, however, the government of India suspects Islamic terrorists based in Pakistan are responsible. Ajmal Kasab, one of the terrorists, was caught alive.[222][223]
* 25 October 2009. Baghdad, Iraq. During a terrorist attack, two bomber vehicles detonated in the Green Zone, killing at least 155 people and injuring 520.
* 28 October 2009 – Peshawar, Pakistan. A car bomb is detonated in a woman exclusive shopping district, and over 110 killed and over 200 injured.
* 3 December 2009 – Mogadishu, Somalia. A male suicide bomber disguised as a woman detonates in a hotel meeting hall. The hotel was hosting a graduation ceremony for local medical students when the blast went off, killing four government ministers as well as other civilians.[224]
* 1 January 2010 – Lakki Marwat, Pakistan. A suicide car bomber drove his explosive-laden vehicle into a volleyball pitch as people gathered to watch a match killing more than 100 people.[225]
* 1 May 2010 - New York, New York, USA. Faisal Shahzad, an Islamic Pakistani American who received U.S. citizenship in December 2009, attempted to detonate a car bomb in Times Square working with the Pakistani Taliban or Tehrik-i-Taliban Pakistan.
* 28 May 2010 - Attacks on Ahmadi Mosques Lahore, Pakistan. Tehrik-i-Taliban Pakistan claimed attacks on two mosques simultaneously belonging to the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community, killing nearly 100 and injuring many others.

[Pete F.]

Originally Posted by JohnR

Or the bombings of la Belle Discotek in Berlin Germany (I was still living there at the time). Kobar towers, The Embassies, Pretty much anything Abu Nidal. Pan Am.

Mr Klinghoffer is unavailable for comment.

Here courtesy of Wikipedia while I cook dinner:

* 26 February 1993 – World Trade Center bombing, New York City. 6 killed.
* 13 March 1993 – 1993 Bombay bombings. Mumbai, India. 250 dead, 700 injured.
* 28 July 1994 – Buenos Aires, Argentina. Vehicle suicide bombing attack against AMIA building, the local Jewish community representation. 85 dead, more than 300 injured.
* 24 December 1994 – Air France Flight 8969 hijacking in Algiers by 3 members of Armed Islamic Group of Algeria and another terrorist. 7 killed including 4 hijackers.
* 25 June 1996 – Khobar Towers bombing, 20 killed, 372 wounded.
* 17 November 1997 – Luxor attack, 6 armed Islamic terrorists attack tourists at Egypts famous Luxor Ruins. 68 foreign tourists killed.
* 14 February 1998 – Bombing in Coimbatore, Tamil Nadu, India. 13 bombs explode within a 12 km radius. 46 killed and over 200 injured.
* 7 August 1998 – 1998 United States embassy bombings in Tanzania and Kenya. 224 dead. 4000+ injured.
* 4 September 1999 – A series of bombing attacks in several cities of Russia, nearly 300 killed.
* 12 October 2000 – Attack on the USS cole in the Yemeni port of Aden.
* 11 September 2001 – 4 planes hijacked and crashed into World Trade Center and The Pentagon by 19 hijackers. Nearly 3000 dead.[208]
* 13 December 2001 – Suicide attack on Indian parliament in New Delhi by Pakistan-based Islamist terrorist organizations, Jaish-E-Mohammad and Lashkar-e-Toiba. Aimed at eliminating the top leadership of India and causing anarchy in the country. 7 dead, 12 injured.
* 27 March 2002 – Suicide bomb attack on a Passover Seder in a Hotel in Netanya, Israel. 30 dead, 133 injured.
* 30 March 2002 and 24 November 2002 - Attacks on the Hindu Raghunath temple, India. Total 25 dead.
* 7 May 2002 – Bombing in al-Arbaa, Algeria. 49 dead, 117 injured.
* 24 September 2002 – Machine Gun attack on Hindu temple in Ahmedabad, India. 31 dead, 86 injured.[209][210]
* 12 October 2002 – Bombing in Bali nightclub. 202 killed, 300 injured.[211]
* 16 May 2003 – Casablanca Attacks – 4 simultaneous attacks in Casablanca killing 33 civilians (mostly Moroccans) carried by Salafia Jihadia.
* 11 March 2004 – Multiple bombings on trains near Madrid, Spain. 191 killed, 1460 injured (alleged link to Al-Qaeda).
* 1 September 2004 - Beslan school hostage crisis, approximately 344 civilians including 186 children killed.[212][213]
* 2 November 2004 – The murder of Theo van Gogh (film director) by Amsterdam-born jihadist Mohammed Bouyeri.[214]
* 4 February 2005 – Muslim terrorists attacked the Christian community in Demsa, Nigeria, killing 36 people, destroying property and displacing an additional 3000 people.
* 5 July 2005 - Attack at the Hindu Ram temple at Ayodhya, India; one of the most holy sites of Hinduism. 6 dead.
* 7 July 2005 – Multiple bombings in London Underground. 53 killed by four suicide bombers. Nearly 700 injured.
* 23 July 2005 – Bomb attacks at Sharm el-Sheikh, an Egyptian resort city, at least 64 people killed.
* 29 October 2005 – 29 October 2005 Delhi bombings, India. Over 60 killed and over 180 injured in a series of three attacks in crowded markets and a bus, just 2 days before the Diwali festival.[215]
* 9 November 2005 – 2005 Amman bombings. a series of coordinated suicide attacks on hotels in Amman, Jordan. Over 60 killed and 115 injured.[216][217] Four attackers including a husband and wife team were involved.[218]
* 7 March 2006 – 2006 Varanasi bombings, India. A series of attacks in the Sankath Mochan Hanuman temple and Cantonment Railway Station in the Hindu holy city of Varanasi. 28 killed and over 100 injured.[219]
* 11 July 2006 – 11 July 2006 Mumbai train bombings, Mumbai, India; a series of seven bomb blasts that took place over a period of 11 minutes on the Suburban Railway in Mumbai. 209 killed and over 700 injured.
* 14 August 2007 – Qahtaniya bombings: Four suicide vehicle bombers massacred nearly 800 members of northern Iraq's Yazidi sect in the deadliest Iraq war's attack to date.
* 26 July 2008 – 2008 Ahmedabad bombings, India. Islamic terrorists detonate at least 21 explosive devices in the heart of this industrial capital, leaving at least 56 dead and 200 injured. A Muslim group calling itself the Indian Mujahideen claims responsibility. Indian authorities believe that extremists with ties to Pakistan and/or Bangladesh are likely responsible and are intent on inciting communal violence.[220] Investigation by Indian police led to the eventual arrest of a number of terrorists suspected of carrying out the blasts, most of whom belong to a well-known terrorist group, The Students Islamic Movement of India.[221]
* 13 September 2008 – Bombing series in Delhi, India. Pakistani extremist groups plant bombs at several places including India Gate, out of which the ones at Karol Bagh, Connaught Place and Greater Kailash explode leaving around 30 people dead and 130 injured, followed by another attack two weeks later at the congested Mehrauli area, leaving 3 people dead.
* 26 November 2008 – Muslim extremists kill at least 174 people and wound numerous others in a series of coordinated attacks on India's largest city and financial capital, Mumbai. A group calling itself the Deccan Mujaheddin claims responsibility, however, the government of India suspects Islamic terrorists based in Pakistan are responsible. Ajmal Kasab, one of the terrorists, was caught alive.[222][223]
* 25 October 2009. Baghdad, Iraq. During a terrorist attack, two bomber vehicles detonated in the Green Zone, killing at least 155 people and injuring 520.
* 28 October 2009 – Peshawar, Pakistan. A car bomb is detonated in a woman exclusive shopping district, and over 110 killed and over 200 injured.
* 3 December 2009 – Mogadishu, Somalia. A male suicide bomber disguised as a woman detonates in a hotel meeting hall. The hotel was hosting a graduation ceremony for local medical students when the blast went off, killing four government ministers as well as other civilians.[224]
* 1 January 2010 – Lakki Marwat, Pakistan. A suicide car bomber drove his explosive-laden vehicle into a volleyball pitch as people gathered to watch a match killing more than 100 people.[225]
* 1 May 2010 - New York, New York, USA. Faisal Shahzad, an Islamic Pakistani American who received U.S. citizenship in December 2009, attempted to detonate a car bomb in Times Square working with the Pakistani Taliban or Tehrik-i-Taliban Pakistan.
* 28 May 2010 - Attacks on Ahmadi Mosques Lahore, Pakistan. Tehrik-i-Taliban Pakistan claimed attacks on two mosques simultaneously belonging to the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community, killing nearly 100 and injuring many others.

And out of that list 7 were in the "western" world, 2 in the United States. For what that's worth.

[Fly Rod]

Originally Posted by spence

I watched the entire video this morning, it provides some valuable context to that quote.

Perhaps Juan will be able to keep his slot as the token Lib on FOX. I'm sure he likes having Brit Hume piss all over him day after day.

-spence

He has been rewarded by FOX with a new contract and pay raise.

[RIJIMMY]

Originally Posted by spence

And yet I think extremist Muslims have killed far more non-American Muslims than Americans.

Sure, then moderate muslims should have the common sense to understant our fear, no?

Not very many if the problem is really Islam. I think there have been a few hundred and many of these are somewhat lower on the threat scale. Out of a billion Muslims worldwide that doesn't make for a lot of terrorists.

It only takes one to kill me or my family, just one. Millions of people across this country will drink and drive tonight. Possibly none will die, however I wont do it.

Don't forget that he was also an American citizen, business person and wore more Kenneth Cole than Islamic dress.

I wont forget, all the more reason for my mistrust. Againt to my point they dont wear uniforms. But - there was ONE thing that would identify him, isnt there?

Just like Timothy McVeigh, Terry Nichols, Michael Fortier and Coleen LaRose?

You might want to take this comment back, it's pretty ugly.

Of those mentioned above, which ones belonged to a cult, cult of tens of thousands that declared war on you and your family? Of those above, which ones danced in the streets when thousands of Americans died? Which one of those people beheaded innocents in cold blood? If you took a computer and loaded it with data on the last 50 yrs of air travel and had it calculate a risk factor for each religion, race or background. To which would it assign the highest, unbiased risk? Again Spence, common sense. Its your friend and may someday save your life. Im not advocating living in fear or any restrictions of muslims rights, but to say there is no grounds for fear or scrutiny based on that religion is plain stupid.


Common sense would really dictate that the trepidation be somewhat on parity with the actual threat. The chances of someone in Islamic dress on an airplane actually being a terrorist out to do you harm are probably as low (or lower) than the chances of you dying from an accident on the same plane.

I agree, Im petrified of flying and take pills when I do. That said, any cause of a airline crash is most likely beyond my control. However, I may have control if I, like the passengers of flight 83 did on 9/11 and passengers of board with the shoe bomber did, act to save my and others lifes. Im not saying we shouldnt allow muslims to fly, Im saying that the fear and uncomfort are rational and reasonable, And should be understood, not silenced.

What percentage of black men are Black Panthers? You're stereotyping again...might want to take this one back as well.

Hardly any, just like hardly any muslims are terrorists. However if the black panthers threatened to kill americans, I as most would, would be cautious and potentially nervous in the presence of black men. We have been born with survival instincts, your liberal PC may someday be your end. Most dog dont bite, however I dont stop and pet rotweillers. Common sense.

The movie is from 1985, made during a period when the US was in a tense period with Libya, making them an ideal target. While a Muslim, I'd consider Gaddafi's identity to be more of a socialist or Arab nationalist and not really an Islamist at all. The fact that he sought reconciliation with the West might have been partially a survival instinct, but certainly isn't the behavior of someone driven by dogma.

Not the point. Today was made in 2010, a period when muslim extremists have declared war and have killed thousands of americans, using jets as brutal weapons.


-spence

usually there is some division of opinion on topics, but Spence stands alone on this one. reminds of those wacky animal owners that believe they can hold hands with gorillas or keep tigers in their home.

[spence]

Originally Posted by RIJIMMY

Sure, then moderate muslims should have the common sense to understant our fear, no?

You should turn this around and ask why you don't understand why much of the Islamic world doesn't trust the USA.

This issue isn't really about the fear, it's how you deal with it.

It only takes one to kill me or my family, just one. Millions of people across this country will drink and drive tonight. Possibly none will die, however I wont do it.

This analogy makes no sense.

I wont forget, all the more reason for my mistrust. Againt to my point they dont wear uniforms. But - there was ONE thing that would identify him, isnt there?

Jim, seriously. You're starting to sound like paranoia is taking over.

Of those mentioned above, which ones belonged to a cult, cult of tens of thousands that declared war on you and your family? Of those above, which ones danced in the streets when thousands of Americans died? Which one of those people beheaded innocents in cold blood? If you took a computer and loaded it with data on the last 50 yrs of air travel and had it calculate a risk factor for each religion, race or background. To which would it assign the highest, unbiased risk? Again Spence, common sense. Its your friend and may someday save your life. Im not advocating living in fear or any restrictions of muslims rights, but to say there is no grounds for fear or scrutiny based on that religion is plain stupid.

Common sense would balance the negative things done by a small minority of Muslims with the far larger weight of positive and peaceful actions by the vast majority of Muslims.

If you dwell just on the visceral imagery there's no chance you'll let common sense guide your actions. How many innocent people have Mexican drug gangs (Catholics right?) beheaded in just the last few years alone?

I agree, Im petrified of flying and take pills when I do. That said, any cause of a airline crash is most likely beyond my control. However, I may have control if I, like the passengers of flight 83 did on 9/11 and passengers of board with the shoe bomber did, act to save my and others lifes. Im not saying we shouldnt allow muslims to fly, Im saying that the fear and uncomfort are rational and reasonable, And should be understood, not silenced.

In stark contrast you as an individual seem to do little to understand your fear and a lot to justify them.

The violent minority has a challenge in that to be effective they often have to conceal their behavior. There are traits that identify them.

Hardly any, just like hardly any muslims are terrorists. However if the black panthers threatened to kill americans, I as most would, would be cautious and potentially nervous in the presence of black men. We have been born with survival instincts, your liberal PC may someday be your end. Most dog dont bite, however I dont stop and pet rotweillers. Common sense.

Again, your analogy doesn't make a lot of sense. You don't pet a rotty because they're easily identifiable and are thought to have pre-disposed tendencies for aggression. I don't see how this would apply to a black person or Muslim...unless...oh %$%$%$%$.

Not the point. Today was made in 2010, a period when muslim extremists have declared war and have killed thousands of americans, using jets as brutal weapons.

Um, ok.

usually there is some division of opinion on topics, but Spence stands alone on this one. reminds of those wacky animal owners that believe they can hold hands with gorillas or keep tigers in their home.

I love the "Spence stands alone" line you keep rehashing. It really shows how you're working hard to reach an understanding.

One thing I've noticed repeatedly is that you seem to place the responsibility for understanding completely on the other party, treating all Muslims as a gigantic monolithic block. You blame moderates for not speaking out more against violence, but have you ever raised an ear to see if any are talking? You blame all innocent Muslims for not doing more, instead of taking ownership for the fear that you alone have control of. It's like a fear of all guns rather than those people who would use them for violence. In this respect you're acting pretty Left wing.

People tend to be more uncomfortable with things they're not used to. In an effort for outreach many Imam's have Open Mosque Days. You should seek one out and go talk to people.

-spence

[Jim in CT]

Spence, I pray that you never work for the Dept Of Homeland Security.

You point out that the Times Square bomber was, in addition to being Muslim, an American citizen who was neatly dressed. The problem with that logic, Spence, is that his citizenship nor his clothing chioces, were his motivation for killing Americans. The guy believes that Islam commands him to kill Americans, that makes him a Muslim terrorist.

Spence, do you really believe that there is no connection between Islam and jihadists? Do you dispute that they are motivated by religion?

We all know that not all Muslims are terrorists. Only kooks deny that most terrorists are Muslims. The LOWEST estimate I have ever seen, estimated that one half of one percent of Muslims are fanatics who would support jihad. Unfortunately, 0.5% of 2 billion Muslims is ten million.

I did 2 tours in Iraq with the USMC, I know a lot about these people.

And Spence, if you think Juan Williams' remark (being afraid to sit next to muslims on a plane) was offensive, that suggests that when you're on a plane, you really make no distinction between an elderly nun and a young muslim yelling "Allah is great!". There are 3 types of people. Those who agree with Juan Williams, liars (who agree but won't admit it), and crazy people.

[spence]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

Spence, I pray that you never work for the Dept Of Homeland Security.

Same here, I'd rather not work in that government sector.

You point out that the Times Square bomber was, in addition to being Muslim, an American citizen who was neatly dressed. The problem with that logic, Spence, is that his citizenship nor his clothing chioces, were his motivation for killing Americans. The guy believes that Islam commands him to kill Americans, that makes him a Muslim terrorist.

All well and good, but that's not the point, which was that profiling can at times be an ineffective security strategy. How do you tell by just looking at someone they're a criminal?

Spence, do you really believe that there is no connection between Islam and jihadists? Do you dispute that they are motivated by religion?

I've never said that there's no connection between Islam and violent extremists. Certainly there's motivation to defend (or show empathy with) those with a shared faith (in effect defending the faith) and some take this to a violent extreme. I'd think that a lot of this is actually driven by local issues, religion being a factor, but it's not necessarily the root cause.

Some are simply zealots.

What I have pretty consistently maintained is that the issue is much more complicated than just Islam, and is a product of complex geopolitical events, ideology and power struggles over time. It would be nice to just blame the religion, but that's not going to help us solve any real issues.

We all know that not all Muslims are terrorists. Only kooks deny that most terrorists are Muslims. The LOWEST estimate I have ever seen, estimated that one half of one percent of Muslims are fanatics who would support jihad. Unfortunately, 0.5% of 2 billion Muslims is ten million.

I think numbers like this need to be looked at very carefully. I'm sure a young Palestinian homicide bomber (driven by rage) would be considered here even though their actions might not be a result of jihad. I'm sure a lot of violence in Iraq and Afghanistan are as much a result of the situation on the ground as anything else.

All that being said, there certainly are a good number of fanatics, but I'm far more concerned with the much larger number of those feeling disenfranchised who could turn violent in what appears to be (but isn't) a random manner. That is the global insurgency that bin laden hoped to inspire.

In this I think there's the best argument for a connection between the religion and the violence. But even here, it's not spontaneous. As with the Ft. Hood shooter, perhaps the best most recent example, there was a pattern of behavior that evolved from a troubled person, was infected by radicalism (perhaps simply opportunistic manipulation) and led to a violent criminal act.

There's little about this sequence that shows a shared value with most mainstream Muslims even if it is a shared faith.

I did 2 tours in Iraq with the USMC, I know a lot about these people.

I appreciate your service and am sure you gained valuable perspective and insight from your experiences. I do hope you continue to share them.

And Spence, if you think Juan Williams' remark (being afraid to sit next to muslims on a plane) was offensive, that suggests that when you're on a plane, you really make no distinction between an elderly nun and a young muslim yelling "Allah is great!". There are 3 types of people. Those who agree with Juan Williams, liars (who agree but won't admit it), and crazy people.

The offensive issue wasn't that Juan was showing candor, it's that he made a blanket stereotype. I've already stated I think NPR over reacted by terminating his position for this alone.

As an aside, I travel by air quite a but and have never seen anyone in Islamic dress shout allah is great on the plane. I have seen people in Islamic dress, but even that's pretty rare on the routes I travel. I'm sure there are plenty of Muslims on the plane regardless, but for some reason I don't feel the need for suspicion.

-spence

[buckman]

Originally Posted by JohnnyD

I posted this in the "Fired" thread, but it's necessary here as well...

"Anyone who tells you that they don't get concerned, even briefly, when anyone of apparent Middle Eastern decent is on a plane with them is a liar."

[Insert RIJIMMY quip about liberals here]

I agree 100% JD. There are a few idiots in America that are clueless though. Take the 3 morons that went for a stroll in Iran for example.

[JohnnyD]

Originally Posted by buckman

I agree 100% JD. There are a few idiots in America that are clueless though. Take the 3 morons that went for a stroll in Iran for example.

Absolutely. The US could learn something from Iran with regards to taking a hard-line approach to border control.

[RIJIMMY]

Spence, I give up.
If you cant understand Americans, myself included, being nervous or concerned when they see muslims on an airplance, sorry to insult, but you are a moron. Its really that simple. This is not a complicated analysis.
As an FYI, I've shared this before, Im 1/4 arab. My uncles on my Mom's side look pretty much like Sadaam Hussein. I SWEAR TO GOD - Do you know how hard we laugh at family gatherings about them traveling! They say how no one wants to sit next to them. They think is hilarious and more importantly - THEY UNDERSTAND !!!!

[Jim in CT]

Spence...

"religion being a factor, but it's not necessarily the root cause."

How can you say religion isn't the root cause? Ask any Islamic jihadist what his motivation is, and do you really think the answer is not "Islam"? If Osama Bin Laden says religion is the root cause for his actions (which he has said), why do you deny it?

It baffles me, it's just incomprehensible to me, why some folks refuse to admit such obvious truth.

How can you begin to defeat an enemy, if you won't admit to yourself who the enemy is?

What would you have done after Pearl Harbor? I can hear you know..."Let's not be too hasty, Admiral Nimitz...Just because we were attacked by Japanese pilots who took off from a Japanese air craft carrier, and just because Japan has declared war on us, I'm not sure who the enemy is here. Let's look at Luxemberg first, to see if they were behind this."

[RIJIMMY]

Jim, dont even bother.

[RIJIMMY]

Move along, nothing to see here.......


An Al Qaeda call-to-arms video released in Detroit by a U.S. intelligence agency hints that terror attacks may be coming to the U.S. and parts of Europe

Adam Gadahn, Al Qaeda’s American-born spokesman, posted a 40-minute video on terrorist Web sites on Sunday, looking to attract local Muslims in sparking terrorism attacks.

Gadahn urged Muslims living “in the miserable suburbs of Paris, London and Detroit” to stage religiously motivated attacks on targets in Europe and the United States.

"It is the duty of everyone who is sincere in his desire to defend Islam and Muslims today, to take the initiative to perform the individual obligation of jihad," Gadahn said in Arabic in the video.

Detroit is the only U.S. city mentioned by Gadahn, who, in the video, also gives praise to the suspect involved in the attempted airplane bombing at Detroit Metro Airport.

Muslim? Airplane bombing? Must be my paranoia surfacing again!

[Jim in CT]

RIJIMMY, are you one of those intolerant bigots who actually believes that Muslim extremists have done some naughty things recently?

[RIJIMMY]

guilty

[spence]

Originally Posted by buckman

I agree 100% JD. There are a few idiots in America that are clueless though. Take the 3 morons that went for a stroll in Iran for example.

I still don't get that story...something stinks.

-spence

[spence]

Originally Posted by RIJIMMY

Spence, I give up.
If you cant understand Americans, myself included, being nervous or concerned when they see muslims on an airplance, sorry to insult, but you are a moron. Its really that simple. This is not a complicated analysis.

I've never said that I can't understand why Americans, including yourself or Juan Williams get nervous around Muslims. What I said was that the issue is what you do with it. You don't say I get nervous, I know it's wrong, but I do it regardless. Instead, you justify your fear through stereotypes. If I was a Muslim that would probably offend me quite a bit, even if I could appreciate why you thought it.

As an FYI, I've shared this before, Im 1/4 arab. My uncles on my Mom's side look pretty much like Sadaam Hussein. I SWEAR TO GOD - Do you know how hard we laugh at family gatherings about them traveling! They say how no one wants to sit next to them. They think is hilarious and more importantly - THEY UNDERSTAND !!!!

Good to see there's a sense of humor. What they probably understand is that many people's perceptions of Arabs, Persians and Muslims are formed primarily from the images they see on TV of terrorism and war. There are a lot of Arab's in the US, especially Lebanese Christians around our age. Let's start profiling them by their looks and see how long they think it's funny.

-spence

[spence]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

Spence...

"religion being a factor, but it's not necessarily the root cause."

How can you say religion isn't the root cause? Ask any Islamic jihadist what his motivation is, and do you really think the answer is not "Islam"? If Osama Bin Laden says religion is the root cause for his actions (which he has said), why do you deny it?

It baffles me, it's just incomprehensible to me, why some folks refuse to admit such obvious truth.

As I said, some are just zealots and religion could be considered a root cause. I also said that religion is often a "factor" but might not be the "root cause."

But even Bin Laden (certainly a fanatic) has clearly stated that the moral justification for his actions comes largely from issues like Palestine, Chechnya, the US/Saudi relationship etc.. which are quite political/cultural in nature and where sympathy is found among many Muslims and non-Muslims alike.

Was 9/11 a product purely of religion (they hate us for our freedoms) or was it purely a product of post-Cold War geopolitics?

If the answer is simply "Islam" I don't think it can be both. The point being, this is a lot more complicated than just focusing on a religion. While the threat of terrorism today is primary Islamist in nature, the reasons behind this can be quite varied and might often not be driven by dogma alone.

How can you begin to defeat an enemy, if you won't admit to yourself who the enemy is?

We can certainly identify Islamists who are a threat and eliminate them. But to do so is moot unless someone can work to keep disenfranchised Muslims (or in some cases even non-Muslims) from going down the slippery slope.

To the later, if the best strategy is by winning "hearts and minds" or "peace through strength" is a different argument.

What would you have done after Pearl Harbor? I can hear you know..."Let's not be too hasty, Admiral Nimitz...Just because we were attacked by Japanese pilots who took off from a Japanese air craft carrier, and just because Japan has declared war on us, I'm not sure who the enemy is here. Let's look at Luxemberg first, to see if they were behind this."

I'm not sure that's an appropriate analogy. Japan was a defined state and we knew who attacked us.

-spence

[JohnR]

So Spence, in a clear / concise way, what do you think we should do?

We have the legions of disenfranchised young (mostly) muslim (mostly) males in a near term hot war and a long term battle for hearts and minds. What do you think we should do?

I'm genuinely interested in what you have to say (not snarky whatsoever).