So it looks like "Dissent is patriotic is already out the window!

[EarnedStripes44]

[QUOTE=RIJIMMY;660014]If the libs beleive group think and faulty intelligence got us into Iraq, why is the bailout any different[QUOTE]

I think your right. In the case of the Iraq war there were the known unknown's and the unknown unkown's as the loquacious Rummy articulated. I think this stimulus bill could also have unintended consequences as well, bad and good, and sure enough there is plenty of swine in between the lines. But swine is swine, and both Republicans and democrats play the merchant depending on whose managing the butcher shop. Is the pork what this is really over. PORK....its what's for dinner!

However, I do think greater care and preparation is going to those elements of bill that are intended to jumpstart things economically. I think this administration is going to execute with a surgical precision that was absent in Bush's administration when confronting challenges. Add to that, the way the Iraq war has been funded is unlike any war that has been funded in the past. Bush would ask congress for the money and they just forked it over albeit with concessions; swine anyone? Ordinarily, wars have been budgeted for, as opposed to the Executive back and forth with Congress saying " i need a XX billion?"....9 months later "i need another XX billion" and so on. That is what has lead to waste of millions maybe a few billion in war funding.

The point i'm trying to make here is that blanket statements affirming/predicting the uselessness of social planning is what is useless. That may seem naive but for what I've been told its more important to focus on motives behind what is trying to be achieved and then critically approach the choices and alternatives. Partisanship does none of this any good.

Originally Posted by RIJIMMY

unnececsary charity

Charity is one of the supreme virtues. I am an atheist, but I did believe the pastors word when he said charity is the avenue that the mercy of god passes down to us mortals. So maybe this should be refraised as "unnecessary subsidies".

[buckman]

Originally Posted by JohnnyD

TDF, There's no point in even discussing with him. This is how the extremists on the far right work. Make some outlandish unresearched statement, get proven your 100% wrong, then attempt to amend what you said or completely ignore what you said and try to change history.

Buckman won't even respond to me anymore when I correct him. Probably because a point presented with hard facts and figures is tough to argue with, as opposed to his Bill O'Reilly-pulled out of thin air with no support comments.

I don't have a degree in finance like you guys but near as I can tell the only time the Dow has been this low, this month, was the day he took office, and it's still dropping.

The left never let the facts get in the way before.
I may be off on the details but I won't be far off on the effects of this huge waste of money, that we don't have.

The market will be below the point where Obama took office soon enough. The hypocacy of the left and the way you let Pelousi and the like, lead you around by the short hairs is scary. Welcome to Jones Town.

[RIJIMMY]

Originally Posted by EarnedStripes44

Charity is one of the supreme virtues. I am an atheist, but I did believe the pastors word when he said charity is the avenue that the mercy of god passes down to us mortals. So maybe this should be refraised as "unnecessary subsidies".

Good, then introduce a bill with the proposals for charity. BUT this charity crap is getting bundled in with a stimulus package being marketed with the fear of the current economy.

I find it hard to swallow that you believe this Administraion will execute this so smoothly when the facts of how inflated this bill are presented before you. If they cant even focus now, how do you think the will later.

[EarnedStripes44]

Originally Posted by RIJIMMY

I find it hard to swallow that you believe this Administraion will execute this so smoothly when the facts of how inflated this bill are presented before you. If they cant even focus now, how do you think the will later.

I get what your saying. This bill has lots of pork.

But you've got to keep in mind that this is congress were talking here and its dependent multi million dollar lobbying industry that goes on with it. Its not exactly a Republican or Democrat, Right or wrong type of thing, both parties push pork and the recipients are scattered throughout the political spectrum. Its Lobbying. The number of registered lobbyist in DC doubled to well over 30,000 from 2000 to2007. Lobbyist registered damn near 2 billion in fees last year. Its washington's legislative culture. Its a big game of give and take.

I think we all understand Obama is a politician, but I do believe that he has a better handle and understanding of the scope of his job than the previous administration. He has far more intellectual muscle behind him. Thats what I mean when I say his approach will be measured. After all, if this goes to S...., it will be his fault.

[buckman]

Index Quote
Index Data

Last Sale 8000.86 Previous Close 8149.01
Change -148.15 Open 8149.01
Change % -1.82% 1-Week Range 8405.87 - 7909.03
Previous Close 8149.01 1-Month Range 9088.06 - 7909.03
Today's Range 7961.92 - 8195.76 52 Week Range 7449.38 - 13136.70
Last Trade Time 4:30 PM EST YTD Change -4462.34

I'm pumped. More government spending please.

[Swimmer]

If you want to read the bill go tohttp://heritage.org and read a little of it or the entire bill.

[spence]

Originally Posted by RIJIMMY

Ladies and gentlemen, I give you the Secretary of State............ Cheney must have had his hand up her rear like a puppet. Yup, the evil Bush admin.....

Pretty much. Clinton was basing her position on the new "intel" that was tainted. The Senate might have failed their job of oversight, but that doesn't mean they weren't the victims of good marketing like the rest of us.

Also, Clinton was consistent in her remarks on the issue that something had to be done, but that unilateral action was not feasable option.

This part seems to get cut from all the quotes and videos. I wonder why?

-spence

[spence]

Originally Posted by RIJIMMY

If the libs beleive group think and faulty intelligence got us into Iraq, why is the bailout any different.

Apples and oranges. Sure there are hypothetical parallels, but at the end of the day the money, unecessary or necessary, is going to be spent on domestic projects with (promised) transparency to the people.

Also the size of the investment has been stated up front. The Bush Admin claimed Iraq would cost under 200M and be over in a flash...then SCOPE CREEP set in

-spence

[RIJIMMY]

Originally Posted by spence

but at the end of the day the money, unecessary or necessary, is going to be spent on domestic projects .


-spence

untrue

[buckman]

02/02/09 8000.62 8000.62 7867.37 293,885,384 7936.83 -64.03 -0.80%

Oh snap! How could this be. Don't they believe

[RIJIMMY]

January was the worst month in Dow history. I believe Buckman was redeemed.

[The Dad Fisherman]

Originally Posted by RIJIMMY

January was the worst month in Dow history. I believe Buckman was redeemed.

In October of '08 the DOW on Oct 1 was at 10,831 and closed on Oct 30 at 9336 for a loss of 1,495 or 13.8%

In January of '09 the Dow on January 2 was at 9034 and closed on January 30 at 8000 for a loss of 1,034 or 11.4%

On January 16 (The Last Close before the Inauguration) the DOW closed at 8281 and closed yesterday at 7936 for aloss of 345 or 4.1%.

Just what was redeemed???

[buckman]

Originally Posted by The Dad Fisherman

In October of '08 the DOW on Oct 1 was at 10,831 and closed on Oct 30 at 9336 for a loss of 1,495 or 13.8%

In January of '09 the Dow on January 2 was at 9034 and closed on January 30 at 8000 for a loss of 1,034 or 11.4%

On January 16 (The Last Close before the Inauguration) the DOW closed at 8281 and closed yesterday at 7936 for aloss of 345 or 4.1%.

Just what was redeemed???

Your'e right, I feel much better now. Thanks for the optimism.

[The Dad Fisherman]

Hey, I didn't say things don't suck and probably will continue to suck for a while....I just stated the facts.

[buckman]

me too!

[The Dad Fisherman]

I know, I Didn't question your last post....can't argue numbers

[spence]

Originally Posted by RIJIMMY

untrue

You might not like how it would be spent, but please tell me how I'm wrong?

-spence

[buckman]

I think part of what you said will be true Spence. It's the money that will spent on programs(i.e. stop smoking campaigns, Acorn and the like) that will not stimulate anything but my anger, that I'm opposed to.

[RIJIMMY]

it will stimulate more votes for dems from urban population, unions and other victims the dems need in order to get elected