The stimulus is working!

[spence]

Originally Posted by Cool Beans

LOL, now you sound like the wife, "You have to read between the lines" and "feel" what I mean. I try to read every word you post, but sometimes it's hard to follow your, kinda like reading writing on tissue paper spinning in the toilet.

No, it just means you can't apply your bias filter to every post. A good amount of the time I'm not advocating any position, but trying to present rational counter arguments to provide perspective and context.

Example:

Obama gets blasted for a record 1+ trillion deficit. I argue that he's inherited a huge % of this from President Bush, which is a fact.

This doesn't mean I'm endorsing large deficits, even if I argue that there are situations where borrowing to solve problems might be in our best long-term interest.

What I'm not hearing from the peanut gallery here (or anywhere for that matter) is how free market principals can be pragmatically applied to solve real problems today. I don't care how things might have been better had we behaved in a more conservative manner 70 years ago, tell me how we can adapt to the current situation and steer the ship.

-spence

[spence]

Originally Posted by RIROCKHOUND

and it isn't buying in...
it is about reading the SCIENCE and educating yourself, instead of believing we have no impact on the planet...

Rush Limbaugh has taught us that MAN can not destroy the planet because it was made by GOD.


What don't you get?

-spence

[RIROCKHOUND]

We can't?
We sure as %$%$%$%$ can over fish and pollute, right? We just can't warm the planet by changing the atmosphere... seems kind of contradictory to me there Spencay-atollah

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by spence

What I'm not hearing from the peanut gallery here (or anywhere for that matter) is how free market principals can be pragmatically applied to solve real problems today. I don't care how things might have been better had we behaved in a more conservative manner 70 years ago, tell me how we can adapt to the current situation and steer the ship.
-spence

When the ship drifts off course, the remedy is to steer it back on course, not just to go off on some uncharted destination. The ship of state is temporarily adrift because the captain has discarded the map. He has heard of a brave new world, a utopian place where the harsh natural place from whence he sailed holds no sway. It is a land of total fairness and good feeling, where all suffering is healed, where enemies have been vanquished by conciliation and discussion, where the tree of academe and its advanced postmodern method has deconstructed away all tracts, treatises, manifestos, constitutions, and all so-called concrete foundations that are over 70 years old. Ancient things no longer apply there. Not even values, principles, or concepts. All that matters there is the comfort, convenience, ease of access to all that sustains, at little to no cost. Cost is an ancient concept, value, principle. Especially attractive about this new land is the absence of the ancient, so-called "free market" values, principles, concepts. Economic "predators" have been eliminated there. The People, not persons, rule there. Personality breeds dissent, confusion, differing values, principles, concepts. All, in their wonderfull diversity, have been schooled by a superior pedagogy into a like-minded deferral to the great becefactor--the State.

Actually, plastic surgery and lasik, medical procedures not covered by insurance, but paid by the ancient "out of pocket" method, and which used to be expensive, have seen tremendous drops in price and are now "more affordable" due to ancient "free market" principles, values, concepts of competition. (Walmart, that competitive pit bull that liberals and unions love to hate, also comes to mind.)

The private insurance thing has inflated out of hand and is about to unecessarily morph into a bigger public form which will deliver less at higher costs, monetarily and socially. It is probably not "pragmatic" to instantly abolish all insurance (nor constitutional), but we can let the air out more gradually by reverting toward "out of pocket" plans like health savings accounts.

[Cool Beans]

Originally Posted by spence

Rush Limbaugh has taught us that MAN can not destroy the planet because it was made by GOD.


What don't you get?

-spence

That comment made by Rush is silly, Man can mess it up if we tried (nukes work well). The part I think is ridiculous is how CO2 is the main pollutant they seem to be concentrating on. Al Gore and "cow farts"! Cow farts help plants and trees grow, they do not add to global warming! Carbon monoxide from cars do contribute but without CO2 life would not exist. CO2 emissions have increased significantly over the past 10 years while global temps have leveled off and actually went down. I am a strong believer that solar activity is the main factor behind this. It is natural climate shifting, it has happened many times before. We are starting a period of global cooling not warming. We should be good stewards of our environment, but handcuffing our industry, we empower China and give them that much more control of our economy. Tax them enough for their emissions and they will leave.

As for the Stimulus, less than 10% of the stimulus has been spent! Most of it wont be seen until 2011-2012. Unemployment is through the roof and average hours worked per worker is 32hrs. That means many people are either forced to work part time or forced furlough days. We are far from the bottom of this and the Stimulus is a total waste of time and money!

[spence]

Originally Posted by Cool Beans

Cow farts help plants and trees grow, they do not add to global warming!

Cow farts contain a lot of methane which is a significant greenhouse gas. I've read some studies where they estimate 15-20% of greenhouse gases are from livestock alone.

As for helping plants grow, anything can kill you in the right quantities. Remember as well that as emissions rise there's incredible deforestation going on globally.

Carbon monoxide from cars do contribute but without CO2 life would not exist. CO2 emissions have increased significantly over the past 10 years while global temps have leveled off and actually went down. I am a strong believer that solar activity is the main factor behind this. It is natural climate shifting, it has happened many times before. We are starting a period of global cooling not warming.

This has been discussed here before, but a look at the last few years doesn't show the trend that's causing concern. Yes, it does look like we're in a period of global cooling, but it's a short 10 year cycle. If it follows the pattern of the past century we'll see a very sharp temperature rise at the end of the cycle that will set new average records.

We should be good stewards of our environment, but handcuffing our industry, we empower China and give them that much more control of our economy. Tax them enough for their emissions and they will leave.

Which is exactly why many have been looking for a global solution that treats everybody equally. Also, you can't have it both ways. Being a good steward doesn't mean you ignore what is still considered pretty compelling evidence that man is influencing climate change.

As for the Stimulus, less than 10% of the stimulus has been spent! Most of it wont be seen until 2011-2012. Unemployment is through the roof and average hours worked per worker is 32hrs. That means many people are either forced to work part time or forced furlough days. We are far from the bottom of this and the Stimulus is a total waste of time and money!

I would think that if you don't like the bill you'd be happy that we're not going to spend the bulk of the money up front. Perhaps it can be allocated towards better uses, or better yet, not spent at all.

-spence

[Cool Beans]

Originally Posted by spence

I would think that if you don't like the bill you'd be happy that we're not going to spend the bulk of the money up front. Perhaps it can be allocated towards better uses, or better yet, not spent at all.

-spence

I Strongly believe that it is set this way on purpose, so the bulk will be spent during the 2 years prior to the next presidential election, so the masses will see the effect then and it will be in their minds when it comes time to vote.

It was such a big emergency to get it passed so quickly, and then we spend a tiny percentage of it now? It was set up this way for political reasons, not economical reasons.

Also, a lot of politicians that helped Obama, got a lot of their pet projects into that bill. kind of like a "thank you present".

Not Spent At All? Once the government has it, it may not be spent on its intended purpose, but IT WILL BE SPENT! No freaking chance in hell it will come back to the taxpayers!

[spence]

Originally Posted by Cool Beans

I Strongly believe that it is set this way on purpose, so the bulk will be spent during the 2 years prior to the next presidential election, so the masses will see the effect then and it will be in their minds when it comes time to vote.

That's a perfectly good political argument, irony intended.

The flip side of course is that you shouldn't spend money until it's been well planned out. Ongoing civil infrastructure projects (i.e. shovel ready) were a good first target as most communities are ready to go but just lack funding.

Also, a lot of politicians that helped Obama, got a lot of their pet projects into that bill. kind of like a "thank you present".

Certainly the Dems took the opportunity to spend money on projects they've not been able to for quite some time. I would have liked to see a lot of this eliminated and the actual stim bill be about 1/2 as large. I did think doing something was in order.

Not Spent At All? Once the government has it, it may not be spent on its intended purpose, but IT WILL BE SPENT! No freaking chance in hell it will come back to the taxpayers!

My guess is that if the Republicans eliminate the Dem super majority in the mid-term elections, which is very likely, there will be room to make some changes. I doubt they'd be able to kill the rest of the spending (as Obama would simply VETO the new bill) but they will have the muscle to negotiate how it's appropriated. Obama will be looking for a second term and will need to cooperate more with the GOP so he doesn't get boxed in...just like Clinton did.

-spence

[Cool Beans]

hmmmmm..... Spence Lewinski and ElRush Beans seem to almost agree on that last post.

Can't agree on man made global warming/cooling, but seem to agree on the Stimulus Bill for the most part.

[RIROCKHOUND]

Originally Posted by Cool Beans

hmmmmm..... Spence Lewinski and ElRush Beans seem to almost agree on that last post.

Can't agree on man made global warming/cooling, but seem to agree on the Stimulus Bill for the most part.

El Beans...
does your opinion of climate change (dislike the term global warming..) come from an extensive review of the scientific literature?
Just curious...
show some of the data or articles you are basing your opinion on in a new thread so we don't hijack this one...

[justplugit]

The stimulus already has 1 Billion earmarked for climate research.

On top of that,the Cap and Trade Bill would tax industry and energy users, us,
with additional taxes estimated at a 19% increase on home electricity alone, forget about gas and oil..
We are supposed to set the example for the rest of the world, like China, India and Third World countries are going to follow.

With the little manufacturing we have now being taxed to the hilt, they will run, not walk, to other countries where they won't be taxed and there goes the loss of who knows how many more jobs.

This whole thing is a runaway train, act in haste repent at leisure. Let's see what the 1 Billion stimulus will do first ,before we go over the point of no return.
The whole stimulus plan was based on emergency, emergency now we are being told by some scientists, not all, we are headed for climate doomsday unless we do something yesterday.

Let's hope some of the 1 Billion is spent on researching machines that could extract carbon dioxide from the air as proposed by Wallace Broecker, Columbia University Oceanographer.
Worth a try before killing our economy completely.
Slow and steady.

[RIROCKHOUND]

Originally Posted by justplugit

Let's hope some of the 1 Billion is spent on researching machines that could extract carbon dioxide from the air as proposed by Wallace Broecker, Columbia University Oceanographer.
Worth a try before killing our economy completely.
Slow and steady.

Broecker does have some good ideas...
I'm sure many are being researched...

[RIROCKHOUND]

Originally Posted by RIROCKHOUND

El Beans...
does your opinion of climate change (dislike the term global warming..) come from an extensive review of the scientific literature?
Just curious...
show some of the data or articles you are basing your opinion on in a new thread so we don't hijack this one...

???????

[JohnnyD]

Originally Posted by RIROCKHOUND

???????

Good luck getting actual supported facts and not a emotional, from the gut opinion.

Anyway, Cool Beans is too busying driving around in his truck waiting for Palin to speak again so he can find me laying in traffic.

[Cool Beans]

Originally Posted by JohnnyD

Good luck getting actual supported facts and not a emotional, from the gut opinion.

Anyway, Cool Beans is too busying driving around in his truck waiting for Palin to speak again so he can find me laying in traffic.

LOL, that is funny as hell!!!
Nope I've been working a lot these past few weeks and haven't had a lot of time to sit behind my pc at home. I haven't forgotten your questions on my Man made global climate change position and will get back with you on it as soon as I get a bit more time on the computer.

[RIROCKHOUND]

OK.
Remember, SCIENCE not opinion or press articles, but science..

[scottw]

Originally Posted by RIROCKHOUND

Just curious...
show some of the data or articles you are basing your opinion on in a new thread so we don't hijack this one...

Don't need scientific literature, Rock, have you been outside at all this year?....if 1998 was the hottest year on record and we have far more CO2 in the atmosphere 10 or 11 years later and Al Gore's giant graph on Oprah recently with the gigantic arrow pointing straight upward is correct...then how is it that we are consistently 20-25 degrees BELOW the recored temps every single day, most of which were set in the 30's and 40's.. if Al Gore is right then this is simply impossible!! I pull up the NBC 10 weather chart every day which shows high/low... average high/low and record high/low and we are consistently under....HOW!!!....WHY!!! you only prefer "climate change" because it covers your ass either way...here's a bulletin...THE CLIMATE IS ALWAYS CHANGING...always has, always will...
I should not be out fishing at night in July and freezing my ass off...but it's worth it
if this is the result of GLOBAL WARMING...bring it on!

I'm worried about the guys that were posting here over the holiday weeekend rather than fishing

[RIROCKHOUND]

Nice schoolies Scott.

Man-made climate change instead of global warming is the more scientific term, because it doesn't warm everywhere.
And yes, it changes all the time, but it boils down to the rate and amounts of change we are seeing in a relatively short time, that isn't seen in the historical, or geological past.

Remember, weather patterns and climate are two vastly different things.
This summer has been screwed up by a pervasive shift in the jet stream that has been pumping low pressure systems at us non-stop.

I just find it completely illogical how people can think we have zero impact on the earths climate.

[scottw]

Originally Posted by RIROCKHOUND

I just find it completely illogical how people can think we have zero impact on the earths climate.

noone is saying this Rock, Australia has figured it out, much of Europe is figuring it out, China and India just gave the middle finger...this is "Cap and Screw"...cap capitalism and screw the populus..nothing to do with the environment but a global assault on capitalism and it's fine because while these people can certainly lie and decieve they can't control the weather no matter how much they tax the crap out of people...yet another overreach and nature will not cooperate with the doomsday propoganda , and Al Gore is a compulsive liar and a remarkable hypocrite

[scottw]

[QUOTE=RIROCKHOUND;699146]

This summer has been screwed up by a pervasive shift in the jet stream that has been pumping low pressure systems at us non-stop.

Australia too? just call it "climate change" instead of "global warming" blame humans and commence massive taxation because that always solves everything

Minus 13 degrees - the coldest it's been in April
Brett Dutschke, Wednesday April 29, 2009 - 14:58 EST
A new Australian record was set early this morning, a temperature of minus 13 degrees, at Charlotte Pass on the Snowy Mountains.

This is the lowest temperature recorded anywhere in Australia in April and is 13 below the average. Nearby at Perisher it dipped to minus 11 degrees and at the top of Thredbo it dipped to minus 10.

Across the border, on the Victorian Alps April records were broken at Mt Hotham where it chilled to minus eight degrees and Mt Buller and Falls Creek where it got as low as minus seven.

A few other locations set April low temperature records also. In Tasmania Lake Leake was as cold as minus six, Sheffield and Dover both reached minus one and Flinders island got to zero. Hobart had its coldest April night in 46 years, recording a low of 1.7 degrees, seven below average.

[spence]

Global climate change is a fraud because it was cold in Australia.

Yea Bryan, he's really got you there

-spence

[JohnnyD]

Originally Posted by spence

Global climate change is a fraud because it was cold in Australia.

Yea Bryan, he's really got you there

-spence

It goes right in line with my opinion of how the average American follows any news item.

They perceive what is happening right this moment, and that observation is fact. Have an unseasonably cool month in June - there's no way Global Warming exists. Longer than typical Indian Summer in February - Global Warming is going to murder our children tomorrow.

The average person doesn't have the capability to look at trends - here-and-now emotional responses are all many are capable of.

Perfect example is the direct corollary some people use when comparing what the stock market has done *today* and how the economy is doing. Market goes up, and the economy is improving. Next day the Market goes down, and we're headed for a depression.

There's very little critical thinking, just single observations then comments.

[scottw]

Originally Posted by spence

Global climate change is a fraud because it was cold in Australia.

Yea Bryan, he's really got you there

-spence

as usual Spence, you completely invent a fraudulent statement, where is your integrity? "Global Climate Change" is occuring all of the time(this may be alien to you) it began changing as soon as the atmosphere was formed and will continue until a wayward meteor destroys the planet unless we do it first.....the POINT is that 1998 was deemed the hottest year ever and has been followed by year after year where the "culprits" of supposed global warming have increased every year in the atmosphere and the planet has cooled????...I cited Australia to show that not only here but across the planet(even on the other side) RECORD cold temps for extended periods are constantly being recorded ...this cannot possibly be occuring if "THE PLANET HAS A FEVER" that began ten years ago when the planet was the hottest that it has ever been and it was "only going to get worse" ...NOT...it's that simple, you can throw out all of your gobligook but you cannot explain this fact....you are perpetuating the greatest SCAM in the planet's history...SHAME ON YOU!

[JohnnyD]

Originally Posted by scottw

[COLOR="Blue"]as usual Spence, you completely invent a fraudulent statement, where is your integrity

fraud (frôd) n.
1. A deception deliberately practiced in order to secure unfair or unlawful gain.
2. A piece of trickery; a trick.
3.
a. One that defrauds; a cheat.
b. One who assumes a false pose; an impostor.

How exactly?

Anyone can find specific locations where temperatures have been statistically low for a period of time. It doesn't change the fact that the Average Global Temperature is up.

[RIJIMMY]

uhhh stimulus, budgets, waste............lets try to stay on topic here boys. Damn scientist always going off on tangents...... anyone hear that there are no bunker around????????

[scottw]

Originally Posted by JohnnyD

How exactly?

Anyone can find specific locations where temperatures have been statistically low for a period of time. It doesn't change the fact that the Average Global Temperature is up.

Jimmy, time to move onto "another(the next) stimulus"...should be a winner

JD...10 years after the planet began burning up there should be NO record low temperatures ANYWHERE...the problem with liars (Al Gore) is that they have to constantly lie to cover up the big intitial lie, while it's be immensely profitable for him, it is global deceit and will be proven so, the AGW nuts are just hoping to shove their agend up your butt as quickly as possible so that they can take credit as the cooling continues for magically fixing everything as we all shiver because oil is banned and the windmill won't turn

you must have a really high IQ ?

[JohnnyD]

Originally Posted by scottw

JD...10 years after the planet began burning up there should be NO record low temperatures ANYWHERE...the problem with liars (Al Gore) is that they have to constantly lie to cover up the big intitial lie, while it's be immensely profitable for him, it is global deceit and will be proven so, the AGW nuts are just hoping to shove their agend up your butt as quickly as possible so that they can take credit as the cooling continues for magically fixing everything as we all shiver because oil is banned and the windmill won't turn

you must have a really high IQ ?

10 years? In global climate terms, 10 years isn't even a speck on the radar.

[scottw]

[QUOTE=RIJIMMY;699221]uhhh stimulus, budgets, waste............lets try to stay on topic here boys. QUOTE]

here ya go Jimmy, "if at first you don't succeed, bankrupt yet another generation"...maybe they'll have a big, expensive party and work everything out...print more money, more deficit spending, higher taxes, strangle industry, these guys really know what they're doing...

Democrats Split on Stimulus as Job Losses Mount, Deficit Soars By Matthew Benjamin

July 8 (Bloomberg) -- Democrats who control the levers of power in Washington are divided over whether to push for more deficit spending to end the recession and stem job losses(that assumes more deficit spending will accomplish this), complicating the possibility of a second stimulus bill.

“We need to be open to whether or not we need further action,” House Majority Leader Steny Hoyer, a Maryland Democrat, told reporters yesterday. Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid of Nevada countered that “there is no showing to me that another stimulus is needed.” (yet)

President Barack Obama underscored the dilemma by addressing both sides of the argument.(fence) In an interview with ABC News yesterday, he said unemployment approaching 10 percent (wait, he said the first stimulus would keep it at 8%, emergency, emergency!) is something “we wrestle with constantly.” He added that spending more borrowed money is “potentially counterproductive.” brilliant stuff?...you know he really wants to..
The split reflects two major challenges facing the Democrats: Record budget deficits that make additional spending much tougher to pass and a 26-year-high unemployment rate of 9.5 percent that is expected to rise to double digits. (spending money that they don't have and more government dependents, Dems should be quite happy)

“They’re between a rock and a hard place,” said Stuart Rothenberg, editor of the Rothenberg Political Report in Washington.

The U.S. economy lost 467,000 jobs in June(but the trends are POSITIVE), exceeding economists’ forecasts, while the federal budget deficit is projected by the Congressional Budget Office to top $1.8 trillion this year(that's nothing) and $1.4 trillion in fiscal 2010. That’s provoked criticism of the $787 billion stimulus bill passed in February as either wasteful or not large enough. (how about STUPID)

Borrowing Surge (the SURGE has failed)

The Treasury is increasing debt sales to pay for the spending. After more than doubling note and bond offerings to $963 billion in the first half, another $1.1 trillion may be sold by year-end, according to Barclays Plc. The second-half sales would be more than the total amount of debt sold in all of 2008.

The U.S. should consider drafting a second stimulus package focusing on infrastructure projects because the bill approved in February was “a bit too small,” said Laura Tyson, an adviser to Obama during last year’s presidential campaign who now sits on the White House’s Economic Recovery Advisory Board. (one Trillion...do I hear Two Trillion??(should be twice as effective)...Barney bids 3 Trillion!!...do I hear 3.5 Trillion???

Rhode Island Senator Sheldon Whitehouse, a Democrat whose home state has a 12 percent jobless rate, told ABCNews.com that a second stimulus is “probably needed.” Action by Congress would “probably take place towards the end of the year,” Whitehouse said. (stop talking moron)

With the White House and congressional Democrats focused on a major health-care overhaul(destruction and govt. takeover) and a climate(scam) bill, some lawmakers expressed pessimism about the likelihood of such legislation. (yeah, right...we really didn't want to stimulate again but it was an emergency)

Will there be a third stimulus...right before the depression officially begins?

[spence]

Originally Posted by scottw

as usual Spence, you completely invent a fraudulent statement, where is your integrity? "Global Climate Change" is occuring all of the time(this may be alien to you) it began changing as soon as the atmosphere was formed and will continue until a wayward meteor destroys the planet unless we do it first.....the POINT is that 1998 was deemed the hottest year ever and has been followed by year after year where the "culprits" of supposed global warming have increased every year in the atmosphere and the planet has cooled????...

You sure got me Dr. Science. I guess the fact that 2008 saw one of the warmest months on record and that the yearly averages look like this:



Seem to support your sceintific theory that the Earth is indeed entering a dramatic period of cooling contrary to increasing output of greenhouse gasses.

I'm guessing you either stopped your education at the 8th grade, or really didn't pay attention in high school statistics.

I cited Australia to show that not only here but across the planet(even on the other side) RECORD cold temps for extended periods are constantly being recorded

...this cannot possibly be occuring if "THE PLANET HAS A FEVER" that began ten years ago when the planet was the hottest that it has ever been and it was "only going to get worse" ...NOT...it's that simple, you can throw out all of your gobligook but you cannot explain this fact....you are perpetuating the greatest SCAM in the planet's history...SHAME ON YOU!

Only an idiot would measure climate change with a 10 year sample, or perhaps someone out to ignore science and make a political point.

RIROCKHOUND sure called that one.

-spence

[scottw]

Originally Posted by spence

[COLOR="Black"]

Only an idiot would measure climate change with a 10 year sample, or perhaps someone out to ignore science and make a political point.

RIROCKHOUND sure called that one.

-spence

you have it backward, this is all about politics and has very little to do with science, is Al Gore a Politician of a Scientist?...why is the solution massive government take over of industry and meddling into every aspect of our lives together with massive taxation??? Because this is nothing more that a STATIST tool to acquire more power...

there are an awful lot of PHD idiots running around that dipute this data and "SCIENCE", but just like welfare, it's become a cottage industry for the left....time will tell, just hope we can recover from the damage that will be done ....

BTW..it's GLOBAL WARMING, climate change is a cop out, this began as global warming, didn't you see the movie?... and is not new, the left has run with coming ice ages and then the global burning up every 25 years for the last century, they've tried this crap before, just can't seem to make up their minds...


NOPE, WE"RE SCREWED....OBAMA RULES THE PLANET TEMPERATURES
Philip Webster, Political Editor, in L’Aquila
President Obama and other leaders backed historic new targets for tackling global warming last night in an agreement designed to pave the way for a world deal in the autumn.

For the first time, America and the other seven richest economies agreed to the goal of keeping the world’s average temperature from rising more than 2C (3.6F).

They also agreed to cut greenhouse gas emissions by 80 per cent by 2050 as they strove for a worldwide deal at Copenhagen in December.
better start "eliminating" a lot of people