Striper Talk Striped Bass Fishing, Surfcasting, Boating

     

Left Nav S-B Home Register FAQ Members List S-B on Facebook Arcade WEAX Tides Buoys Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Right Nav

Left Container Right Container
 

Go Back   Striper Talk Striped Bass Fishing, Surfcasting, Boating » Striper Chat - Discuss stuff other than fishing ~ The Scuppers and Political talk » Political Threads

Political Threads This section is for Political Threads - Enter at your own risk. If you say you don't want to see what someone posts - don't read it :hihi:

 
 
Thread Tools Rating: Thread Rating: 6 votes, 5.00 average. Display Modes
Old 12-23-2013, 10:43 AM   #151
Jim in CT
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 20,428
I don't beleive I'm struggling even a bit, I don't think it could be more simple. But Merry Christmas to you as well!

Last edited by Saltheart; 12-26-2013 at 02:25 PM..
Jim in CT is offline  
Old 12-23-2013, 10:48 AM   #152
The Dad Fisherman
Super Moderator
iTrader: (0)
 
The Dad Fisherman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Georgetown MA
Posts: 18,177
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim in CT View Post
Seems to me that one could therefore say the same thing about the Boy Scouts?
Yeah, they could. there are a bunch of stubborn A-Holes there as well.

No Shortage of Stubborn A-Holes in the World...Right Jim

"If you're arguing with an idiot, make sure he isn't doing the same thing."
The Dad Fisherman is offline  
Old 12-23-2013, 10:54 AM   #153
Nebe
Registered User
iTrader: (0)
 
Nebe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Libtardia
Posts: 21,553
The 2 commandments... It could save the world.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device
Nebe is offline  
Old 12-23-2013, 10:55 AM   #154
detbuch
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 7,688
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim in CT View Post
I'm not sure it matters what it was they were purchasing. What matters is that what they were asking, was interpreted by this man as contradictory to his religious views.

"Can you explain how ordering a cake from a baker is forcing ones beliefs on another?"

The courts are telling this guy that he must provide the cake, or face fines. The court is ordering this man to participate in that which violates his religious beliefs. I'm not sure I see how that's different from courts ordering Catholic OBGYN's to provide abortions. I'm not saying a cake is the moral equivalent of an unborn baby, I'm saying that these would both be examples of the government ordering someone to act in a way which violates their religion. If that's not a violation of the Freedom Of Religion, I don't know what is.

And remember I support gay marriage. But I also support the Bill Of Rights, and I don't like it when the courts pretend those protections don't exist when it serves their personal agenda to do so.
I agree with you that it is OBVIOUS the only party being forced upon in this dispute is the baker. Even if he were trying to convert the gays, which he wasn't, he wouldn't have been forcing them or "cramming" anything on them. While it is true the gays were also not forcing the baker to become gay, or even to tolerate or accept the "gay life style," they used the government to force him to their wishes or face a penalty.

Those who accept government mandates such as prohibition of discrimination by private citizens fail to see the problem of Constitutional "slippage." Or they don't care about it. And, after all, it only seems fair that we should not "discriminate." Even if we are forced not to. But the slippage has been happening, at first gradually, now quickly, over time, and various rights have slipped away with it. We have not noticed that what was once referred to as the "vast residuum" of rights beyond those in the Bill of Rights, we individuals once had possessed are now gone. We don't notice because it happened in pieces over time and only seemed to affect a few folks when government mandates backed by SCOTUS decisions forced a farmer here or there not to grow more than a certain amount of a crop, or a cheaper healthy alternative to whole milk during the depression era was eradicated because it competed with the dairy industry, or the thousands of little closures or restrictions of business were forced by the misuse of Commerce Clause, and transfers of wealth and creation of huge bureaucracies which imposed their will on the people were created by Commerce and Welfare Clauses. They happened bit by bit, with the announced purpose of helping us all to a better life. That was easy enough for us to say OK . . . that's good. The whole process has expanded to such a mass/mess that more and more are beginning to take note. We woke up one morning and were astounded to learn that we had to buy something, not for the privilege of receiving some right, but because the government wanted it so. Oh yeah, there was the usual rationalization about the public good. But the public was finally being told on a massive scale, not just a little here or there, that it could not decide its own good. Government would do that.

Oh yeah, Jim, we still have the Bill of Rights, don't we? Well, apparently we have not been noticing, those are slipping away as well. Amendments have been "interpreted" to mean other than they were intended. Most have little force if the government can get five judges to agree. The most sacred First and Second have been under assault for some time. And anti-discrimination laws have slipped from prohibition of government to prohibition of citizens from discriminating.

Your protection of speech and practice of religion have been severely assaulted by anti-discrimination laws. Once only government was prohibited from those discriminations. That has now crept into prohibition of individuals doing so in places of "public accommodation." What does that do to your first amendment rights? They have been narrowed. And as the drum beats for the continuous expansion of the concept of "equality" the definition of a place of public accommodation can very well, and probably will, expand. Do you accommodate public airwaves into your home? Do you receive letters and circulars into your home? So when you must accommodate the public as the government dictates, do you really own your business? Can you really own your property? If what you ostensibly "own" can be taxed and regulated at will, do you really own it. If you cannot freely have a right to your expression of speech in your public place because it "discriminates" against someone who enters who does have that right, do you really have freedom of speech? Oh, and there is something new called the "doctrine of government speech" which the court has conjured out of the usual thin air which can supersede your individual right to free speech when the two are in conflict. But that has not reared its ugly head in a major noticeable way for the larger public to notice. It may well do so down the road when the government needs to apply it in larger portions.

None of this bothers most folks. They don't notice it. Or don't care because it doesn't seem to affect them in any bad way . . . so far as they can tell. We're all busy working (most of us) and playing and don't want to be bothered by the little laws and such the government passes. We trust it's all for the good, and necessary.

I still find it hard to wrap around the idea that the federal government can force us to buy health insurance. I am certain the Founders would have thought that was cause for another revolution. But they would have thought that well before this. But so long as we think this is all for the good, we accept it . . . and the Constitution slips away.

Last edited by detbuch; 12-23-2013 at 11:36 AM..
detbuch is offline  
Old 12-23-2013, 11:13 AM   #155
Jim in CT
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 20,428
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Dad Fisherman View Post
Yeah, they could. there are a bunch of stubborn A-Holes there as well.

No Shortage of Stubborn A-Holes in the World...Right Jim
TDF, you brought up that term, not me. I believe you thought it was funny at the time.

I believe this baker deserves the same constitutional protections that we give to the Klan when they want to hold a rally. If that makes me a stubborn ahole, then I can live with that.
Jim in CT is offline  
Old 12-23-2013, 11:21 AM   #156
The Dad Fisherman
Super Moderator
iTrader: (0)
 
The Dad Fisherman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Georgetown MA
Posts: 18,177
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim in CT View Post
TDF, you brought up that term, not me. I believe you thought it was funny at the time.

I believe this baker deserves the same constitutional protections that we give to the Klan when they want to hold a rally. If that makes me a stubborn ahole, then I can live with that.
I still think it was funny....that hasn't changed.

And I agree with everything there....but yet you have this "Talent" of alienating people, even when they agree with you (like Me)

and I also consider myself a Stubborn A-Hole as well....just ask my wife and kids

"If you're arguing with an idiot, make sure he isn't doing the same thing."
The Dad Fisherman is offline  
Old 12-23-2013, 11:23 AM   #157
Jim in CT
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 20,428
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Dad Fisherman View Post
I still think it was funny....that hasn't changed.

And I agree with everything there....but yet you have this "Talent" of alienating people, even when they agree with you (like Me)

and I also consider myself a Stubborn A-Hole as well....just ask my wife and kids
Point taken, merry christmas and a very happy new year to you guys...
Jim in CT is offline  
Old 12-23-2013, 04:09 PM   #158
scottw
Registered User
iTrader: (0)
 
scottw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 12,632
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim in CT View Post
Scott, I am not sure I can re-phrase it with any more simplicity or clarity.
I just thought you might want to try a different approach seeing as how he was just channeling Marx
scottw is offline  
Old 12-23-2013, 04:11 PM   #159
scottw
Registered User
iTrader: (0)
 
scottw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 12,632
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Dad Fisherman View Post
2 guys wanted a cake and the baker didn't want to make it for them.....and now they are Gay Rights Activists and the Baker is forcing his religion down their throats.

I prefer you just refer to them as 3 Stubborn A-holes....
right...whatever happened to agreeing to disagree?
scottw is offline  
Old 12-24-2013, 11:44 AM   #160
FishermanTim
Registered User
iTrader: (0)
 
FishermanTim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Hyde Park, MA
Posts: 4,152
What about a store cashier that sues because they were fired for not selling alcohol because their muslem religion forbids them from doing so?

If memory serves me right (hopefully) that clerk won their lawsuit because they shouldn't be forced to do something that was against their religious beliefs.

So what it sounds like is that the courts only acknowledge religions OTHER than Catholicism as real religions worthy of constitutional protection.

I am a legend in my own mind!
FishermanTim is offline  
Old 12-26-2013, 09:33 AM   #161
likwid
lobster = striper bait
iTrader: (0)
 
likwid's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Popes Island Performing Arts Center
Posts: 5,871
Send a message via AIM to likwid
Quote:
Originally Posted by FishermanTim View Post
What about a store cashier that sues because they were fired for not selling alcohol because their muslem religion forbids them from doing so?

If memory serves me right (hopefully) that clerk won their lawsuit because they shouldn't be forced to do something that was against their religious beliefs.

So what it sounds like is that the courts only acknowledge religions OTHER than Catholicism as real religions worthy of constitutional protection.
....that was in the UK

also there also remains the fact that in the US and the UK if the clerk/server is under 18, they can't sell you alcohol either, but have to get someone else to do it. a bit different than refusing someone service completely.

Ski Quicks Hole
likwid is offline  
Old 12-26-2013, 12:07 PM   #162
detbuch
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 7,688
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nebe View Post
If the baker wants to be left alone, the baker should not run a business that is open to the public.

You've expanded the perception of being "left alone" to ridiculous widths. If the baker ran a business that was only open to those of his religion, he still wouldn't be left alone. If your definition of being "left alone" is not to be impinged upon by anyone who might disagree with you in any way, you would have to be a hermit. But then you would have to accept the intrusions of distasteful weather, and creepy beasties. It is impossible to be "left alone" if by that is meant not to be affected by that outside of yourself. I think what is generally meant in this context is to be allowed your personal beliefs so long as you do not deprive others of theirs. If you are forced to relinquish your beliefs to the satisfactions of anyone else's beliefs, you have none. That would work in a world where no-one believes anything.

So can the baker refuse to sell to whoever he does not feel that his religion agrees with??
What if he refused service to blacks??
What if he refused service to Muslims???

As far as I can tell from this story is that the baker didn't refuse to sell to the gays (or blacks or Muslims), but he refused to sell something he did not have. Nor, because of his beliefs, would ever have.

Jim, the thing you are not grasping is that he is forcing his religion on the gays.. Because he is telling them he won't sell them a cake because his religion does not agree with it.

In this manner of thought, your mere presence is "forcing" it on someone else. If your presence annoys me, I can leave and force you to be deprived of my presence. If you speak to me you are forcing your words on me. Actually, I don't have to listen. And by not listening I am forcing you not to be heard. If I preach my religion to you through my presence and my words, you may choose to not listen to my words, or to leave my presence. If you force your presence and words on me by demanding I make something that I don't make nor choose to make, should I not be free to repel your force with my own? Should not my reaction be equal to your action?

The baker was not FORCING his religion on the gays. They were in no way compelled to be part of his religion. They had every right and means to reject his religion. Their imposition of personal behavior on him should in no way compel him to abandon his own. He was not refusing to give them service. He was refusing to give them a service he did not provide--making something that was intended for a behavior which his religion condemned.


I don't know if I have said this yet, but the biggest homophobes are always the ones who fight a constant struggle to repress their own gay urges.. I mean really... What kind of Colorado cowboy decides he is going to make pretty cakes with little roses all over them??
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device
So, are you forcing your peculiar notion on the rest of us? We can reject it, and force you to have no effect.

And if the gays had asked merely as customers, not by imposing their presence as gays, the baker to bake a pretty cake with little roses, he may have done it. But if he didn't want to, should he have been forced to?

Last edited by detbuch; 12-27-2013 at 08:57 PM..
detbuch is offline  
Old 12-26-2013, 01:54 PM   #163
spence
Registered User
iTrader: (0)
 
spence's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: RI
Posts: 21,181
Quote:
Originally Posted by detbuch View Post
As far as I can tell from this story is the baker didn't refuse to sell to the gays (or blacks or Muslims), but he refused to sell something he did not have. Nor, because of his beliefs, would ever have.
Aren't most wedding cakes made to order?
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device
spence is offline  
Old 12-26-2013, 02:09 PM   #164
detbuch
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 7,688
Quote:
Originally Posted by spence View Post
Aren't most wedding cakes made to order?
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device
If you are implying that ordering a cake has no connection to its specific use, that would be true if the ultimate use is not known to the baker. But if it is ordered as specified for a purpose, then that purpose is known to the baker, and if the baker's religion compels him to not participate in the purpose, what compels him to violate his beliefs and the first Amendment's protection of that right?

Last edited by detbuch; 12-30-2013 at 05:32 PM..
detbuch is offline  
Old 12-27-2013, 03:07 PM   #165
likwid
lobster = striper bait
iTrader: (0)
 
likwid's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Popes Island Performing Arts Center
Posts: 5,871
Send a message via AIM to likwid
Quote:
Originally Posted by detbuch View Post
If you are implying that ordering a cake has no connection to its specific use, that would be true if the ultimate use is not known to the baker. But if it is ordered as specified for a purpose, then that purpose is known to the baker, and if the baker's religion compels him to not participate in the purpose, what compels him to violate his beliefs and the Second Amendment's protection of that right?
is he a one man operation?
if not, why didn't he just have one of his heathen sinner employees bake it?

then he's free from supporting sinners.

or does he only hire god fearing monogamous/virgin/go to church every sunday children of the all holy god?

Ski Quicks Hole
likwid is offline  
Old 12-27-2013, 03:25 PM   #166
spence
Registered User
iTrader: (0)
 
spence's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: RI
Posts: 21,181
Quote:
Originally Posted by detbuch View Post
If you are implying that ordering a cake has no connection to its specific use, that would be true if the ultimate use is not known to the baker. But if it is ordered as specified for a purpose, then that purpose is known to the baker, and if the baker's religion compels him to not participate in the purpose, what compels him to violate his beliefs and the Second Amendment's protection of that right?
How is the use of a cake for a gay wedding any different than a cake for a straight wedding? It's cake...you eat it.

Like I said before, I could see the baker refusing to make an outlandish cake, perhaps in the shape of a swastika or sexually suggestive somehow. But so far I've not read anything that suggests anything but a standard cake.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device
spence is offline  
Old 12-27-2013, 03:37 PM   #167
Nebe
Registered User
iTrader: (0)
 
Nebe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Libtardia
Posts: 21,553
True. He said he chooses not to sell to gays. Kinda like all those whites who chose not to sell to blacks.. How'd that turn out?
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device
Nebe is offline  
Old 12-27-2013, 03:39 PM   #168
spence
Registered User
iTrader: (0)
 
spence's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: RI
Posts: 21,181
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nebe View Post
True. He said he chooses not to sell to gays. Kinda like all those whites who chose not to sell to blacks.. How'd that turn out?
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device
Do you sell glassware to Nazis? How about al Qaeda?
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device
spence is offline  
Old 12-27-2013, 06:06 PM   #169
detbuch
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 7,688
Quote:
Originally Posted by spence View Post
How is the use of a cake for a gay wedding any different than a cake for a straight wedding? It's cake...you eat it.

Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device
The use is different in exactly the way you described it. It's used to celebrate a gay wedding. Its use is different in the same way a hammer's use to pound nails in construction differs from using it to break into someone's home. Just about any object can be used in different ways, some of which are not approved of by some people who would not therefore choose to sell the object to someone who would use it in a destructive way. The use of the baker's cake to celebrate something his god would forbid differs from that baker selling a cake to be used for something which his god would either approve or not disapprove.

Take it out of the context of religion and into a matter of law. It may be illegal to sell a gun to a convicted felon. But its usually not illegal to sell a gun to a "respectable" person with the right papers. It is assumed that the gun will be used for different purposes by people with anti-social character than by upstanding folks.
detbuch is offline  
Old 12-27-2013, 06:23 PM   #170
detbuch
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 7,688
Quote:
Originally Posted by likwid View Post
is he a one man operation?
if not, why didn't he just have one of his heathen sinner employees bake it?

then he's free from supporting sinners.

or does he only hire god fearing monogamous/virgin/go to church every sunday children of the all holy god?
I don't know. Maybe he used Christianity as a cover but was actually a member of some secret heterosexual Satanist cult which commanded a form of jihad against gays.

Maybe his religion dissuaded him from hiring "heathen sinners." I'm not sure if that's a class protected by anti-discrimination laws.

Even so, ordering the heathen sinners to bake the cake would still implicate him in supporting sinners. And I doubt if his god would approve of his trying to get around his faith in devious ways. That is one of the many ways "god fearing monogamous/virgin/go to church every Sunday children of the all holy God" differ from the less than scrupulous among us. We tend not to like cheating ways when used against us, but admire and recommend it to friends and family when it's to their advantage. Politicians are especially good at it.
detbuch is offline  
Old 12-27-2013, 06:30 PM   #171
detbuch
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 7,688
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nebe View Post
True. He said he chooses not to sell to gays. Kinda like all those whites who chose not to sell to blacks.. How'd that turn out?
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device
Did he actually say that he chooses not to sell to gays? I don't know the full text of the story. It sounds like he didn't want to sell the cake because it would be used to celebrate something which debauched a sacrament of his church. I didn't read that he would not sell to gays under any circumstance.
detbuch is offline  
Old 12-27-2013, 06:47 PM   #172
Nebe
Registered User
iTrader: (0)
 
Nebe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Libtardia
Posts: 21,553
Quote:
Originally Posted by detbuch View Post
Did he actually say that he chooses not to sell to gays? I don't know the full text of the story. It sounds like he didn't want to sell the cake because it would be used to celebrate something which debauched a sacrament of his church. I didn't read that he would not sell to gays under any circumstance.
Hmm a very valid point. I don't know
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device
Nebe is offline  
Old 12-27-2013, 06:52 PM   #173
BigBo
Registered User
iTrader: (1)
 
BigBo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: RockVegas
Posts: 3,228
The women only health club Curves will not let me patronize their business under any circumstances.

The future ain't what it used to be. --Yogi Berra
BigBo is offline  
Old 12-28-2013, 05:01 PM   #174
Jim in CT
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 20,428
Quote:
Originally Posted by spence View Post
How is the use of a cake for a gay wedding any different than a cake for a straight wedding? It's cake...you eat it.

Like I said before, I could see the baker refusing to make an outlandish cake, perhaps in the shape of a swastika or sexually suggestive somehow. But so far I've not read anything that suggests anything but a standard cake.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device
Spence, you should expect more of yourself.

The couple asked him to provide a cake for, and therefore somewhat participate in, a gay wedding. He chose not to.

The complexity of the cake is not relevant.
Jim in CT is offline  
Old 12-28-2013, 05:02 PM   #175
Jim in CT
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 20,428
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nebe View Post
Hmm a very valid point. I don't know
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device
So maybe you want to recant your description of this guy as a bigot?
Jim in CT is offline  
Old 12-28-2013, 05:15 PM   #176
Nebe
Registered User
iTrader: (0)
 
Nebe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Libtardia
Posts: 21,553
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim in CT View Post
So maybe you want to recant your description of this guy as a bigot?
No. Anyone who denies something to someone else because they don't like their beliefs are a BIGGOT.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device
Nebe is offline  
Old 12-28-2013, 07:18 PM   #177
Jim in CT
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 20,428
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nebe View Post
No. Anyone who denies something to someone else because they don't like their beliefs are a BIGGOT.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device
OK, so it's OK for you to insult someone (Christians) for their beliefs, that's acceptable. But because you will take money from those you disagree with, and this baker will not, that makes you MORE morally principled? According to you, abandoning your beliefs to make a buck, is ethically superior to sticking to your beliefs? Interesting...
Jim in CT is offline  
Old 12-28-2013, 08:29 PM   #178
BigBo
Registered User
iTrader: (1)
 
BigBo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: RockVegas
Posts: 3,228
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nebe View Post
No. Anyone who denies something to someone else because they don't like their beliefs are a BIGGOT.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device
I believe I should be allowed to patronize that womens only health club dammit!!!!! Are they biggots for denying me?

The future ain't what it used to be. --Yogi Berra
BigBo is offline  
Old 12-28-2013, 09:53 PM   #179
spence
Registered User
iTrader: (0)
 
spence's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: RI
Posts: 21,181
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim in CT View Post
Spence, you should expect more of yourself.

The couple asked him to provide a cake for, and therefore somewhat participate in, a gay wedding. He chose not to.

The complexity of the cake is not relevant.
The guy is on record having baked a cake for a wedding between two dogs. Was he participating in that also?

-spence
spence is offline  
Old 12-29-2013, 12:29 PM   #180
likwid
lobster = striper bait
iTrader: (0)
 
likwid's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Popes Island Performing Arts Center
Posts: 5,871
Send a message via AIM to likwid
Quote:
Originally Posted by detbuch View Post
I don't know. Maybe he used Christianity as a cover but was actually a member of some secret heterosexual Satanist cult which commanded a form of jihad against gays.

Maybe his religion dissuaded him from hiring "heathen sinners." I'm not sure if that's a class protected by anti-discrimination laws.

Even so, ordering the heathen sinners to bake the cake would still implicate him in supporting sinners. And I doubt if his god would approve of his trying to get around his faith in devious ways. That is one of the many ways "god fearing monogamous/virgin/go to church every Sunday children of the all holy God" differ from the less than scrupulous among us. We tend not to like cheating ways when used against us, but admire and recommend it to friends and family when it's to their advantage. Politicians are especially good at it.
I'm pretty sure most Gods don't give a damn who you bake a cake for, but they do care when you discriminate against your fellow man.

Ski Quicks Hole
likwid is offline  
 

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:39 AM.


Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2008, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Please use all necessary and proper safety precautions. STAY SAFE Striper Talk Forums
Copyright 1998-20012 Striped-Bass.com