So now Nth Korea has Nuke warheads?

[Cool Beans]

Disturbing news from The London Times

" The world’s intelligence agencies and defense experts are quietly acknowledging that North Korea has become a fully fledged nuclear power with the capacity to wipe out entire cities in Japan and South Korea, the Times of London reported.

The new reality has emerged in off-hand remarks and in single sentences buried in lengthy reports. Increasing numbers of authoritative experts — from the head of the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) to the U.S. Defense Secretary — are admitting that North Korea has miniaturized nuclear warheads to the extent that they can be launched on medium-range missiles, according to intelligence briefings.

This puts it ahead of Iran in the race for nuclear attack capability and seriously alters the balance of power between North Korea’s large but poorly equipped military and the South Korean and U.S. forces ranged against it. “North Korea has nuclear weapons, which is a matter of fact,” the head of the IAEA, Mohamed ElBaradei, said this week. “I don’t like to accept any country as a nuclear weapon state we have to face reality.”

North Korea carried out an underground nuclear test in 2006 but until recently foreign governments believed that such nuclear devices were useless as weapons because they were too unwieldy to be mounted on a missile.

With 13,000 artillery pieces buried close to the border between the two Koreas, and chemical and biological warheads, it was always understood that the North could inflict significant conventional damage on Seoul, the South Korean capital. Military planners had calculated, however, that it could not strike outside the peninsula.

Now North Korea’s supreme leader, Kim Jong Il, has the potential to kill millions in Japan as well as the South, and to lay waste U.S. bases and airfields in both countries. It will force military strategists to rethink plans for war in Korea and significantly increase the potential costs of any intervention in a future Korean war. The shift from acknowledging North Korea’s nuclear weapons development program to recognizing it as a fully fledged nuclear power is highly controversial. South Korea, in particular, resists the reclassification because it could give the North greater leverage in negotiations."

[JohnnyD]

This is news?

We've known for sometime that North Korea was "months away" from building a completed nuclear warhead.

The London Times has had their head in the sand if they think this is actual news. I have full confidence that our military leaders have already been planning on a nuclear powered North Korea.

I mean come on, they've already tested a nuclear device once.

[buckman]

I'm sure the new administration has this well in hand. Just another little dose of reality for them, that's all.

[Raven]

is looking OLDER every day with what he knows.

[spence]

Originally Posted by JohnnyD

This is news?

We've known for sometime that North Korea was "months away" from building a completed nuclear warhead.

The London Times has had their head in the sand if they think this is actual news. I have full confidence that our military leaders have already been planning on a nuclear powered North Korea.

I mean come on, they've already tested a nuclear device once.

I think the point is that they now have a delivery mechanism.

North Korea has to be up there with the bigger failures of the Bush Administration. Call them out as an Axis of Evil founding member and then ignore them for seven years. That's some miracle of foreign policy

-spence

[GonnaCatchABig1]

i thought it was known for a while they had nukes. for at least the past 4-5 years there have been talks about nukes in korea. maybe even longer. as i was always under the impression they had at least one.

doesn't really scare me too much. Nkorea alone couldn't deliver the nuke to the u.s.. not using conventional means anyway. the second they launched a missile nearly all of the worlds carrier squadrons patrolling the pacific would intercept it within minutes. they don't exactly have top of the line delivery methods.

they could how ever i suppose.. drop it some where a bit closer. in hopes of starting the domino effect. but that wouldn't be very beneficial to them at all. despite all the talk on how evil they are. their leadership doesn't want to destroy the world. what good would that do? hell even their hatred of the U.S. is nothing more than semantics. all dictatorships and most communist leaders use the same strategy. rally the people around one common goal. the most effective of which being "we being oppressed by this country. we must rally together and stand fast against this evil!" it's worked over and over again through out history. including here.

all the "aggression" they are showing right now is nothing more than a child throwing a hissy fit to get attention. the officials there know the country is doomed unless it gains access to the rest of the world. how ever they have to stay steadfast to the big bad U.S.A. theory or else everything crumbles. and the people will be outraged that they suffered so long for no reason. soooo they start throwing out threats and making scenes to get attention and bring people to the bargaining table. i will ASSUME that il knows he can't win the war. so he knows his threats aren't able to be used as bargaining chips once every one has sat down. but that's all he really wants.

of course if that doesn't work out. (which it isn't) he can still fall back on the "we have the military might and will overcome" crap, that they have been spouting for decades.

so it really works out both ways. one they get the attention they wanted. and two when that doesn't work. he gave his people a show of force and defiance that will lift their spirits. it's brilliant really. if.... you want to retain power over the people no matter what the costs..

[spence]

North Korea isn't going to nuke anybody. The bigger issue is likely that they'll sell technology. Aside from Plinko machines it's about their only viable export.

-spence

[Nebe]

All they want is food and oil... Every thing else is fear tacticts to get more aid..
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[GonnaCatchABig1]

Originally Posted by spence

North Korea isn't going to nuke anybody. The bigger issue is likely that they'll sell technology. Aside from Plinko machines it's about their only viable export.

-spence

pretty much. to bad there isn't really a market for nuke tech these days. anybody with ability to use the plans either already has em or can get em from russia. then of course there is the issue iran is having. which is being able to actually put the plans to use with out getting bombed.

i highly doubt N. Korea is willing to start selling off their small cache of already made weapons. really the threat of their use is the only thing keeping the borders secure at the moment. with out them N. Korea becomes just Korea.

there is really nothing that country can do. other than submit completely. until then however, they will continue to throw hissy fits. unless another world war erupts. which could very well happen in the next decade.

according to estimates... 375million people will be "displaced" each year over the next 5 (maybe 10) years from natural disasters as a result of climate change. factor in other effects of such disasters.. poverty, famine, disease. you have a nice little pot with to stir up a land grab war. especially when nations populations are on the verge of anarchy.

edit..

and don't forget the already in motion land grab going on up north for oil reserves which are currently covered by ice, but expected to thaw out in the coming years.

which i really love. "global warming doesn't exist. but we are mobilizing the troops to secure the oil fields that will thaw out soon." :\

[Cool Beans]

Originally Posted by GonnaCatchABig1

according to estimates... 375million people will be "displaced" each year over the next 5 (maybe 10) years from natural disasters as a result of climate change. factor in other effects of such disasters.. poverty, famine, disease.

One question, it seems like you believe Al Gore explicitly, do you believe in "Man-Bear-Pig"?

As the temperatures increase on the Earth at almost identical rates to that on mars, I believe these increased temperatures that started people believing in Global Warming is caused be a long period of increased solar activity, not man. There is no way in hell, my gas guzzling Suburban is causing global warming on mars.
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...s-warming.html

Also, the increased solar activity we did have seems to be over and we are starting a period with very little solar activity, so temps will cool more over the next 10 years or so.

*Global temperature shifts caused by solar activity does exist.
*Man made Global Warming and "Man-Bear-Pig" do not exist.


(for those that do not know of Man-Bear-Pig, he is a mythical creature that Al Gore made up and flipped out over on several episodes of South Park.)

As for Korea, the reason South Korea hasn't done anything is not because of the threat of Nukes. South Korea isn't intent on taking over or doing anything much with North Korea, but peacefully coexisting. The North however, has made claims and acted in ways that definitely indicate they would like to unite into one communist Korea.
And with their "successful" missile test (not a rocket for satellite) they show they are definitely developing a viable delivery platform with intentions or ranges of the west coast.
Even as it stands with the missiles they have they can easily hit any of our many bases in Japan or Korea. Although ! don't really believe military targets are likely, as they get more bang for the buck, wiping out a major city or 2 with lots of civilian casualties. The handling of North Korea is one of the Big issues I had/have with Bush.

I see North Korea using a hornets nest tactic, like a kid with a group of friends around him who hits a hornets nest with a stick and then runs away. In the confusion, he may get a few stings, but his buddies get a great many.

They are definitely a country we should keep an eye on, like Pakistan and Iran.

Just a few thoughts.......

[JohnnyD]

Originally Posted by spence

I think the point is that they now have a delivery mechanism.

-spence

I see no reason for surprise. The step from having a nuclear device and a working ballistic missile system to combining the two is a a mere baby step.

It's seemed very clear that while we're on the other side of the world "looking for Saddams WMDs", North Korea was a mere months to a year away from a working nuclear weapon that could hit Alaska or Hawaii.

The reason George "Mr. Tough Guy" Bush couldn't do anything about it is because a full-blown war with China was possible. Yet, he was too stupid to understand that taking the "Internet Tough Guy" stance with them by calling them names would instigate the situation.

[JohnnyD]

Originally Posted by Cool Beans

As the temperatures increase on the Earth at almost identical rates to that on mars, I believe these increased temperatures that started people believing in Global Warming is caused be a long period of increased solar activity, not man.

Correlation does not prove causation.



"The mechanism at work on Mars appears, however, to be different from that on Earth. One of the researchers, Lori Fenton, believes variations in radiation and temperature across the surface of the Red Planet are generating strong winds.

In a paper published in the journal Nature, she suggests that such winds can stir up giant dust storms, trapping heat and raising the planet’s temperature."
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle1720024.ece

[GonnaCatchABig1]

Originally Posted by Cool Beans

One question, it seems like you believe Al Gore explicitly, do you believe in "Man-Bear-Pig"?

As the temperatures increase on the Earth at almost identical rates to that on mars, I believe these increased temperatures that started people believing in Global Warming is caused be a long period of increased solar activity, not man. There is no way in hell, my gas guzzling Suburban is causing global warming on mars.

Also, the increased solar activity we did have seems to be over and we are starting a period with very little solar activity, so temps will cool more over the next 10 years or so.

*Global temperature shifts caused by solar activity does exist.
*Man made Global Warming and "Man-Bear-Pig" do not exist.


(for those that do not know of Man-Bear-Pig, he is a mythical creature that Al Gore made up and flipped out over on several episodes of South Park.)

actually.. no. i believe in the natural cycles earth goes through. rapid climate change has happened many times before. it has gone a completely tropical planet to an almost barren ice world and back many times. humans have have just the privilege of living in one of it's rarest climates. temperate. no matter what the cause of global warming it's happening.

and actually to elaborate even further. i do believe that humans AREN'T helping the situation. people can claim all they want that we have no part in it.. but there are pretty basic scientific principles involved. of course why would the people calling the shots on a entire civilization built almost from the ground up on oil, admit to it. oil makes the word go round. till we find another viable option which they can charge more for. nothing will change. oil is here to stay. i'm not condemning it. i'm typing away on a key board and looking at monitor made of petroleum products. what can ya do?

the problem isn't really co2 emissions. it's our lack of self control. i was driving by pond meadow park a few weeks ago. what did i see? a fairly large area of land that used to woods right on the outskirts cut back to build houses. whether or not that was actually park property before hand i have no idea. but thats what we do. we chip away and chip away. there is currently a battle in sweden over the old forests there. they wanna start chopping down some of the oldest trees on earth.
we can't keep producing more carbon and removing more trees.

first law of alchemy. Humankind cannot gain anything without first giving something of value in return.

it's pretty much the way things work on a daily basis. when you are born you are created from cells that use proteins and what ever else. when you look at it from the whole. you end up being created out of the earth it self. all the way from the bottom of the chain up to you. and when you die you go right back and provide for the cycle to start a new. (hippy sounding i know)

but as a whole.. what have we ever given back?close to nothing. we take take take. hell everyone heres has seen what that attitude did/does to the fisheries. man kind has been/is doing that left and right all over the globe on even larger scales. for hundreds of years. how much longer do you expect everything to be ok?

that's all beside the point though. because natural climate change is something we have no control over what so ever. and with the damage we have already done. it wont be too fun. especially since people like to deny deny deny and not even explore the possibility it might happen. a lot of the time these are the same people who carry a gun and say "i have it just in case, but hopefully never have to use it." yet then turn around on issues like this and thought of having no control over something scares them so badly that instead of trying to prepare for that "just in case" and "hoping to never have to use it." they just are unwilling to accept it. it never ceases to amaze me.

i guess you could say no use crying over spilled milk. but the milk hasn't been spilled yet. so you can still take precautions to make sure that it doesn't get spilled.

but in the end it all comes back to money. if it's profitable to destroy the world they will. cause they have the money for necessities to ride it out. (barring an asteroid style armageddon) and then the best part is when all the suffering and dying are done with... they can just pop out of no where and resume controlling everything. even more so than before. doubt to many other people will emerge out of it with food stores and weapons..

yup i know. it sounds like i'm reaching pretty far for this. but there is always murphy's law.. so i'll keep on planning for the worst and hoping for the best.


one more addition.. ultimately this "natural" climate change could be a result of us. for what ever reason the ocean currents are shifting. i tend to believe we have way more to do with that than nature does. due to us constantly trying to battle the ocean and control it. (levies, dams, artificial reefs, dumping, canals, erosion "control" and yes possibly even big bad green house effect.) best part is in the end, mother nature will win. may not be tomorrow, may not be a week, a year, a decade or even a millennium. but eventually it will win. we can just hope we will be off this rock by then.

nooooow. swinging back to the topic at hand.. pretty much in agreeance with you on N Korea. how ever at this point S Korea has almost no say in the matter. S Korea is a pawn now. had the war ended 50 years ago. they would have. but now. not at all. now it's all up to democratic nations to decide the fate of the evil communist states. i mean.. show them the ways of democracy.

trust me i know sound like a liberal douche. but i'm just looking at the world from a far as a whole. personally i wish we wouldn't play so many political mind games and just start dropping bombs on areas that give us trouble, so we can get on with life. until one nation rules them all there will never be peace. and even then there still wont be peace. but it would definitely cut down on the stupid day to day bullsh*t. which has just become a hindrance to the progression of humans a whole.

[scottw]

Originally Posted by spence

I think the point is that they now have a delivery mechanism.

North Korea has to be up there with the bigger failures of the Bush Administration. Call them out as an Axis of Evil founding member and then ignore them for seven years. That's some miracle of foreign policy

-spence

ummm.....Spence Alynski...High Minister of Propoganda(or is that Minister of High Propoganda)....the "ONLY" reason that N. Korea has nuclear capability is because Clinton, Albright, Richardson and Carter thought it wise to give them reactors/technology...Madeline Albright is running around to this day saying "they cheated, they lied to us"....no crap you little troll...an oppressive communist dictator lied to you to get his hands on destructive technology....go figure??????

but just blame it on Bush...that's easy....

Posted on Tuesday, October 10, 2006 1:15:28 PM by excludethis

Former Secretary of State Madeleine Albright admitted for the first time on Sunday that under the Clinton administration's Agreed Framework arms control treaty with Kim Jong-il, North Korea "cheated."

Asked point-blank if North Korea developed nuclear weapons during the Clinton administration, Albright told NBC's "Meet the Press," "No, what they were doing, as it turns out, they were cheating."

"The worst part that has happened under the Agreed Framework," Albright said, was that "there [were] these fuel rods, and the nuclear program was frozen."

But because of North Korea's cheating, she explained, "those fuel rods have now been reprocessed, as far as we know, and North Korea has a capability, which at one time might have been two potential nuclear weapons, up to six to eight now, we're not really clear."

Albright's comments came less than 24 hours after reports surfaced that Pyongyang detonated what some said was its first above-ground nuclear test – though experts later said the mushroom-cloud explosion witnessed by tens of thousands was a non-nuclear event.

In a February 2003 interview, Albright boasted to NBC, "When we had the Agreed Framework, we did freeze those fuel rods, and had we not, in the last years, we would have somewhere, people calculate, 50 to 100 nuclear weapons."

A 1999 congressional study determined that Pyongyang was cheating on the agreement, but Albright disregarded the warning and continued to claim that the Agreed Framework was a success.

[buckman]

And now they are kicking out the UN inspectors. I'm starting to have flashbacks of what Saddam did. If Saddam had allowed the inspectors to do there job, then Bush would have never went to war there. Remember?

[RIROCKHOUND]

Originally Posted by buckman

And now they are kicking out the UN inspectors. I'm starting to have flashbacks of what Saddam did. If Saddam had allowed the inspectors to do there job, then Bush would have never went to war there. Remember?

Or...
he never would have had that excuse to go to war, and would have found another.

[spence]

Originally Posted by buckman

And now they are kicking out the UN inspectors. I'm starting to have flashbacks of what Saddam did. If Saddam had allowed the inspectors to do there job, then Bush would have never went to war there. Remember?

Yes, I do remember.

Hans Blix stated that the UN inspectors were close to completing their report and needed a small amount of time to finish their work. While Saddam had certainly not been cooperative, they felt they were able to complete an accurate assessment.

Rather than risk the embarrassment of a report that didn't back the claims that Saddam was an urgent threat...Bush in turn decided to invade.

Follow up reports by Bush's own inspectors came to basically the same conclusions as the UN team under Hans Blix. Saddam had no stockpiles of WMD and no active weapons programs.

-spence

[buckman]

I remember Saddam playing with the UN like the back boneless organization they are. Why didn't Hans finish his inspections?

[spence]

Originally Posted by buckman

I remember Saddam playing with the UN like the back boneless organization they are. Why didn't Hans finish his inspections?

Initially Saddam was certainly playing games with the inspectors, Hans Blix even reported about this to the UN. But as the US Troops built up Saddam did become more cooperative.

What's important to note though is that Blix stated very specifically that they were confident in their findings even knowing that Saddam was attempting to hamper their progress.

The inspections were not finished because Bush started the invasion. Blix requested some more time, less than a month if I remember, to complete their report.

I think we can both agree that the decision to go to war was made in advance and that the UN process was simply an attempt to appease the middle.

This was Bush's conundrum. The case for war was so thin he couldn't risk invading without legal authority as the hard line neo-cons so desired. Going to the UN ultimately proved to just make things look worse when the "given" justification for war proved to be invalid.

It's too bad that Powell lost the argument...

-spence

[RIJIMMY]

Originally Posted by spence

Initially Saddam was certainly playing games with the inspectors, Hans Blix even reported about this to the UN. But as the US Troops built up Saddam did become more cooperative.

What's important to note though is that Blix stated very specifically that they were confident in their findings even knowing that Saddam was attempting to hamper their progress.

The inspections were not finished because Bush started the invasion. Blix requested some more time, less than a month if I remember, to complete their report.

I think we can both agree that the decision to go to war was made in advance and that the UN process was simply an attempt to appease the middle.

This was Bush's conundrum. The case for war was so thin he couldn't risk invading without legal authority as the hard line neo-cons so desired. Going to the UN ultimately proved to just make things look worse when the "given" justification for war proved to be invalid.

It's too bad that Powell lost the argument...

-spence

uhhhh, not this again. How many freakin UN resolutions did they break, over and over and over and over again.
We always forget that war monger Bush came out and gave Sadam and untimatum of 48 hrs to leave the country. I think we jumped through more hoops to avoid war than any other time in history.

[Nebe]

Originally Posted by RIJIMMY

I think we jumped through more hoops to avoid war than any other time in history.

You have got to be %$%$%$%$ing kidding
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[spence]

Originally Posted by RIJIMMY

I think we jumped through more hoops to avoid war than any other time in history.

This statement is so absurd I don't even know where to begin...

-spence

[Nebe]

Originally Posted by spence

This statement is so absurd I don't even know where to begin...

-spence

how about this.... jim was Bushwhacked.. plain and simple.

[RIJIMMY]

god Im having spence and nebe flashbacks from 5 years ago.......... I cant handle it.....

[buckman]

Originally Posted by Nebe

You have got to be %$%$%$%$ing kidding
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

I recall endless resolutions also. Saddam laughed at the UN as did most of the world. I remember the left saying the war would be another Vietnam. Saddam would turn loose his gasses on our troops. You know, the gasses that everyone now says, they knew he didn't have ,(BS). We won the first war, he had rules he was to follow, he ignored, taunted and ridiculed the UN inspectors.

I still believe we were right in going in there and the big picture will become clearer for you Libs,when Obama takes credit for bringing Democracy in the Middle East.

[Nebe]

was it worth it? Think hard now..

[buckman]

Originally Posted by Nebe

was it worth it? Think hard now..

I had high hopes for you. I thought you were coming around.

[Cool Beans]

Originally Posted by Nebe

was it worth it? Think hard now..

Drop by the naval Base in Newport and ask every Marine you see, and almost to a man, they will say it was most definitely worth it. Many of them have pulled 3 to 5 tours over there and still would volunteer again. So if the guys that are paying the ultimate price say it was/is worth it, I will take their word for it.

[spence]

Originally Posted by Cool Beans

Drop by the naval Base in Newport and ask every Marine you see, and almost to a man, they will say it was most definitely worth it. Many of them have pulled 3 to 5 tours over there and still would volunteer again. So if the guys that are paying the ultimate price say it was/is worth it, I will take their word for it.

So is that why so many returning vets ran for Congress as Dems in 2006?

-spence

[Cool Beans]

Just saying what I've been told during the last 3 years stationed in Newport, and I did ask a lot of those I met that had done multiple tours and they nearly all said that they wanted to continue the great work that we are doing over there. They often tell of stories of how much the locals appreciate them and how they have seen so much in improvements in the daily lives of the locals. I know a couple guys that just left on their 6th tour (volunteered on last 2). It's hard for someone to gauge success from the States, but they tell me that it is all worth it, and they do not want to quit before the job is done. Then you usually get their "grunt" followed by a "Semper Fi".