What's Cookin' ?

[nightfighter]

George, first off, hope you all have a great holiday.

Now, my question is, how are you cutting/sanding the darter slope? I have not addressed building a jig for that step....

[pbadad]

Decided to turn some of the pine I had. dug up the specs on a Conrad Jr. found both PM's specs & canalman's Fisherman article. both the same length 5 1/2" but different in diameter, weight amount and hook amount. Has anyone swam both versions? I seems that with the smaller diameter 1.125 and less weight (8gr) would still swim deep as the original larger diameter 1.165 and the longer weight slug (approx. 10gr/12gr). I spun the smaller one (1 hook) and will swim along with one larger w/2 hooks. I have a couple of PM's lips to test with.

[numbskull]

Originally Posted by nightfighter

Now, my question is, how are you cutting/sanding the darter slope? I have not addressed building a jig for that step....

I just freehanded those, Ross, with bandsaw and belt sander, and I effed them up (just like the 1000 times before when I tried the same sloppy method).

If I am building enough of a plug to do it right, I build a sled to hold the plug on its side anchored at the belly and tail, mark out the slope, bandsaw it, then clean it on a belt sander. My system is not great nor perfectly consistent. If you search on SOL for "darter hell" thread, Joe posted a series of pictures that shows a good way to do it. Eddy does something very similar. I like to cut the chin of the plug first upright on the table saw (using a jig to hold it vertical...never freehand).

If I had access to a pin router or shaper I'd build a pin guided bed to follow the curve of the slope. You can do pattern sawing with a bandsaw using a point shaped guide block and a sled shaped to your cut, but my efforts at it were disappointing.

[numbskull]

Originally Posted by pbadad

I seems that with the smaller diameter 1.125 and less weight (8gr) would still swim deep as the original larger diameter 1.165 and the longer weight slug (approx. 10gr/12gr). I spun the smaller one (1 hook) and will swim along with one larger w/2 hooks. I have a couple of PM's lips to test with.

It is the lip and line tie position that takes a conrad down, not the weight. No matter what size plug or wood, just weight the thing so it floats level with the top of the back barely out of the water. Keep your line tie close to midline (not on midline though or the plug will struggle to wobble) and a long vertical face to your lip (ie the distance from the line tie to the start of the diving plane ) and it will run deep. Also keep the slope of the diving plane pretty sharp (close to 45 degrees).

Turns out a high slot lefty lip will take a plug just as deep as a conrad lip if you rebend it a bit (lefty lips come with a very shallow diving plane angle).

[ProfessorM]

Ross for me personally I prefer to do it by hand. Now if i was making 100's of darters I'd come up with something else. I do make fixtures for the front lip angle as I feel that is a very important step and that fixture makes use of a belly hole positioned plug fixture. The slope I just bandsaw, with another belly hole positioned fixture. The slope is cut about a 1/16 to an 1/8 from the finished dimension freehand and then I take a sheet of sand paper on a flat surface and do the final sanding by hand. I don't like using a belt sander myself. There is not a lot of material coming off and I feel like I can control the final dimension better by just rubbing the final wood off. I tried the belt sander, and we have a real nice unit at work, but found i made a mess out most of them and usually took too much off. I prefer to sneak up on the final size.

[chefchris401]

George on the mini mussos what lip are you/he using?

I'm actually on my way to test swim the one I built, I used a Danny 2 lip (I think) and it carries a big belly weight, they weigh 2.7oz with hardware and a quick coat of paint, without epoxy.
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[numbskull]

duplicate post

[numbskull]

Chris, sounds like you are describing a standard jr sized Musso surface swimmer. It uses a Lefty 2 midslot (which should be called Musso 2 since Lefty just took it from Musso).

Musso didn't build one like I have shown. He did build a small swimmer for personal use that he never sold. I've since learned it was a fatter plug and used a full sized lip. I think there is a picture of it in the Pinaturo articles. It only had one belly hook.

These plugs were originally something I dreamed up and described in this thread a few years back http://www.striped-bass.com/Stripert...structive.html. The dimensions are in there somewhere. I know Fred (eskimo) built a variation that worked for him. Somebody else actually copied them and was selling them over on the saltwater edge forum a year or two ago.

You can use a lefty 1 midslot for surface use, but they also work very well with a lefty 1 high slot lip and swim as deep as a little conrad set up that way. The ones I built used a small belly weight and tiny tail weight. I like 'em better than the small danny surface swimmer although that plug fishes pretty well itself

[numbskull]

Here are two nice fish (and one great fisherman) taken on the little plug

[chefchris401]

George heres the one Im building, just got back from test swimming it with 3 different lips.

This version is 5.75" long, weighs 2.75 oz rigged the way it is now, carries cut 2/0 hooks and a flag on the rear (3/0 will work too without marrying)

Belly weight is 11 grams and is 2 5/8" back from the nose. Sits just in the body enough to be able to cover it.

Sits low in the water, with just the top 1/4 of the plug exposed.

I tried it with a danny 2 lip first, stayed right on top, maybe 2" down, great tail wag but anything except a slow crawl made it roll out.

Next was a lefty 2 lip, better holding but still rolled out, but not as much.

Best results where with a pikie 3 lip, slow crawl stayed on top, with 2/3 of the body rolling nicely, flag waving and making a nice v wake, on a faster steadier retrieve it went 2 ft down, no matter how hard I tried or fast I cranked it wouldn't roll out.

So Ill be building em with the pikie 3 lip seeing it gives me a more versatile plug for the surf and the conditions I fish. If they were for flat calm water I'd go with the lefty 2, but I barely fish those conditions.

My testing spot is nice it has a little calm back bay on one side and current flow bay side that is usually pretty choppy on the other, so I get most the conditions Ill actually be fishing in.

Think this plug will fit nicely into my rotations and the spots I fish.

[numbskull]

Sounds like you've got something that does what you want, so go with it but for future reference a few thoughts.

A standard surface swimmer is weighted to float level with the water line @ 1/2 way up the plug. I purposely build them heavier to get them working slower, but there is a tradeoff in that they tend to get subsurface easier than I'd want.

A standard lip size would have the angle at or a slight amount below the chin of the plug. The further you drop it the more roll (and depth) you get.

The standard lip for a surface swimmer is a mid-slot lip. In your picture it looks like you are using a high slot lip (and pikie lips are all high slot). This can be made to work if the plug is very fat and buoyant and you want a lip to pull the nose down and put the tail up with a fast wag (think surfster) but usually high slots are used to take a plug down and make it stable.

Just as an experiment you might try the same shape with a lefty 1 mid slot (or pikie 2 with a lower hole punched in it), and less belly weight. It would also allow you to use 3/0 or 6x 2/0 hooks.

Another thing to watch out for when testing plugs at this time of year is how high above the water your rod tip is. We tend to test from docks and jetties and the higher rod position often keeps a plug running higher than you get when you fish lower so be sure to drop your rod tip during the retrieve and see what occurs.

Whatever, the first big fish you hit with it will make it all worthwhile.

[chefchris401]

George thanks for taking the time to elaborate on the lips and process.

The reason/thought process behind this plug is as follows:

I fish a bunch of shallow reef systems, sweeping current with lots of white wash and sub surface plugs are the go to, usually redfins or ss darters fish dead slow, cast into the wash get tight to the plug and slow crank, the pockets are very small and pretty shallow no more than 6 feet, but its about a 50 to 75 yard cast depending on the stage of the tide and how far out you safely get.

So the point of the plug is to cast good (this is one of the better casting metal lips I've built) and be able to dig in/hold in the wash and into the pockets, think this plug will fit that niche great.

Ive done well with eelys there but they lack the needed casting distance to hit the sweet spot.

I barely fish calm water unless its false dawn or sunset, so having a true surface plug isn't called for that much.

I would rather have a plug that will excel in being a subsurface swimmer than I can tune a little to make it stay on top than a true surface swimmer like a danny or surfster. Or one I can just slow crank it for topwater action.

I do have a bunch of lips and weights coming in, and a couple dozen of these bodies turned that havent been drilled out yet for hooks, weights or lip slots. So Ill play around with them and try and find maybe a couple ways to build the same body but have different actions,weights and lips.

If I stick with this lip/weighting it will get 6x 2/0 or 3/0 hooks.

the dock I use for my swim testing is pretty sweet, it extends pretty far out and is level with the water at high tide and sometimes even a little under water, so its a pretty good spot.

Ive made the mistake of testing on a higher perch and then found out the plug is a different animal in the surf.

[Hookset]

Originally Posted by numbskull

Next up are needles.

I've had repeated success on large fish (as in over 30#) with Eddy's small needle. It has gotten to the point were I consider it a "go to" plug. Eddy is buzy rebuilding his fishing cottage so he won't be making any more any time soon.......so I ripped him off.

Numbskull
I really like the looks of that needle, and I can see by the wear you must like it as much as you point out here. Do you fish this sub surface? How is the sink rate and is it a level or slight tail down sink?
Thanks

[numbskull]

I checked with Eddy and he kindly allowed me to share the info on his needle.

It is birch, a 7/8" dowel.
6 3/8 long
1.75 oz with 3/0 belly and 4/0 tail siwash
.47 nose
.52 tail
straight taper nose to 1 3/4" back where the plug is .70 wide
curve from 1.75 back to 2.5 back where the plug is .86 wide.
Straight dowel at .86 from 2.5 to 3.5 back, then a slight concave taper to the tail which is .52"
Hook and eyes are at 2 3/4"
Two buck shot weights each side of the hook (3.5g each) one at 2 1/4" one at 3.5".
Small tail weight (5.3 g).

It is weighted similar to the pink one in this picture he posted years ago, although the body shape is more like the smaller green one.

It sinks tail down and wakes along top with a slow retrieve.

This is a really good design. Thank Eddy when it takes you a good fish. Please don't use this info for a commercial venture.

[Hookset]

Originally Posted by numbskull

I checked with Eddy and he kindly allowed me to share the info on his needle.

It is birch, a 7/8" dowel.
6 3/8 long
1.75 oz with 3/0 belly and 4/0 tail siwash
.47 nose
.52 tail
straight taper nose to 1 3/4" back where the plug is .70 wide
curve from 1.75 back to 2.5 back where the plug is .86 wide.
Straight dowel at .86 from 2.5 to 3.5 back, then a slight concave taper to the tail which is .52"
Hook and eyes are at 2 3/4"
Two buck shot weights each side of the hook (3.5g each) one at 2 1/4" one at 3.5".
Small tail weight (5.3 g).

It is weighted similar to the pink one in this picture he posted years ago, although the body shape is more like the smaller green one.

It sinks tail down and wakes along top with a slow retrieve.

This is a really good design. Thank Eddy when it takes you a good fish. Please don't use this info for a commercial venture.

I will thank Eddy and then I will thank you for going out of your way to post! Thank you.
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[Slipknot]

Originally Posted by numbskull

Chris, sounds like you are describing a standard jr sized Musso surface swimmer. It uses a Lefty 2 midslot (which should be called Musso 2 since Lefty just took it from Musso).

Musso didn't build one like I have shown. He did build a small swimmer for personal use that he never sold. I've since learned it was a fatter plug and used a full sized lip. I think there is a picture of it in the Pinaturo articles. It only had one belly hook.

These plugs were originally something I dreamed up and described in this thread a few years back http://www.striped-bass.com/Stripert...structive.html. The dimensions are in there somewhere. I know Fred (eskimo) built a variation that worked for him. Somebody else actually copied them and was selling them over on the saltwater edge forum a year or two ago.

You can use a lefty 1 midslot for surface use, but they also work very well with a lefty 1 high slot lip and swim as deep as a little conrad set up that way. The ones I built used a small belly weight and tiny tail weight. I like 'em better than the small danny surface swimmer although that plug fishes pretty well itself

I think you mean Frank, not Fred. close though
I'm not good with names either


good thread George

I'm sure I'll post something when I have something.

[numbskull]

Originally Posted by Slipknot

I think you mean Frank, not Fred. .

Yup, sorry Frank, Fred is too old to remember any of this stuff

[Hookset]

Well, today I turned five small Musso swimmers, 4 7/8" and worked on my template for the "Eddy Needle". I turned 2 of the Eddy needles, but didn't have any Birch (neither did the local stores.) So, I turned them in Maple. Will give me something to horse around with until I cal get some Birch.
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[numbskull]

Not the most productive week. Spent more time drilling and weighting than turning.

Did fool with some variants on needle weighting. Obviously the through wire tail weight and belly weight ahead of the hook scheme is the time proven standard, but all this talk about floating needles and gliding needles got me curious so here are a few things I plan to test. Set them up by rigging the plug then moving weights around held on by rubber bands until the plug floated/sank at the attitude I wanted. Can always fine tune varying by hook size.

There is also a clever way to weight needles posted by PM and Bassmaster (I think) by drilling all the way from the tail to the hook hole with a large bore drill, then positioning a through wire weight somewhere in that distance and holding it in place with plastic tubing as a spacer.

[ProfessorM]

That was Dave who showed me. I do think someone showed him if I recall.
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[rphud]

I have been thinking a minimal belly weight just to keep the needle hook side down and then weight at the back to get the float angle desired. Probably as small a diameter lead as will work within the length from end to hook or belly weight hole. Trying to keep as much weight in the back half for casting, but evenly distributed in the back half. Just a theory so far. Plus the selection of lead diameter is a bit limited. Smallest I am seeing is .22 inch diameter, and I would probably like to go smaller for some I am messing around with. They are only about 1/2" OD. Like a Boone needle, only heavier and thru wired and with much better hooks. Might resort to wound lead strips or wound lead wire if need be.

[nightfighter]

Bob, if you look at George's pics of his and Tagger's, I think you will see more weight forward than you are leaning towards. When I went heavily tail weighted, they floated almost vertically, which did not work for my needle needs, as it is a sloooowwwww retrieve.

[rphud]

Maybe the belly weight forward of the hook then, and shorten the tail weight a bit with the spacer. Time to experiment with water and dome poorly drilled "sticks".

[numbskull]

Originally Posted by nightfighter

Bob, if you look at George's pics of his and Tagger's, I think you will see more weight forward than you are leaning towards. When I went heavily tail weighted, they floated almost vertically, which did not work for my needle needs, as it is a sloooowwwww retrieve.

Flap built some "floaters" as he called them that were just tail weighted and floated vertically with the nose just out of the water. They would straighten right out and wake as he retrieved them. They were very small by my standards but I saw him take a #40 fish with one.

I'm curious to see one of Dave's (Surf Asylum) glide needles and see what he is on to there.

Likewise I set one of the ones I showed to float nearly level with the tail slightly down. My idea is to try barely moving it/dead drifting it on nights with awful fire.

[ProfessorM]

I had pretty good luck with a small needle I made a few years ago and like usual never really used it much till last fall. I only belly wgt it with 3 belly wgts. I made it out of maple. I used the .240 dia. lead shot. 1 in front of hook and 2 behind spaced out. It sank really slow and horizontal. I fished it really slow in a good current and I enjoyed it a lot. I am going to make some more this winter and intend to really give it a good work out this coming year.

Bob I can help you out with a smaller dia. tail wgt. around .187 but it has a .050 dia h thru hole so you will have to use a small thru wire. domn't know if that is something you want to use.

Here is what George was talking about as far as using plastic to adjust the tail wgts.

[ProfessorM]

I am also going to give this longer skinny needle, 2nd from bottom, a better work out this year too. I like the skinnyness of this where i fish with all the sandeels in residence. This was a bitch to make with the tru drilling on the small dia. and it being maple. It was patterned off a shorter Stezko senior one I borrowed from Capesams which I copied to exact dimensions, the bottom one. From there I stretched it out and kept it skinny with same retaliative shape which appealed to me.
Funny how each year I go into this plug building thing with the intent of fishing a specific type lure more in the up coming year. This year it is needles.

[rphud]

Thanks Paul. I have some skinny wire that I got from Slip to use on these. Should fit the smaller hole OK. Bob

[chefchris401]

Bob if you need thinner wire I have rolls of Malin wire in varies sizes.

Anderson's flat glide is amazing, when fish wouldn't hit anything they would crush the flat glide.

I have one that's beat up and and plan on seeing if I can make a clone of it. And a bigger version that sinks the same way but faster.
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[Hookset]

Here are the Eddy Needles next to the 4 7/8" Musso Swmmers and 7" Dannys. I should be swimming these Needles in a few weeks, can't wait to give them a try.

I also turned three 7 1/4" A40s, but I have to wait for some lips to arive in the mail before I drill them.

[rphud]

Thanks Chef. I will let you know as things develop.