Manufactured Crisis

[Jim in CT]

Doctors Without Borders, last time I checked, is not a right wing outfit, not a wholly-owned subsidiary of the Koch Brothers. They say that one in three women attempting to cross the southern border illegally is the victim of sexual violence.


So when Trump says that part of the crisis is a humanitarian crisis, and just about every single democrat says it's a "manufactured crisis", how is that showing any empathy or respect for the people they claim to care about.

Trump: if one in three women are getting raped, that's a crisis.

Democrat party: No it's not!

That's where we are in American politics today.

[Got Stripers]

Come on really, you think Trump would get a rats ares about those women if he wasn’t struggling to fulfill his main campaign promise; that is total BS.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by Got Stripers

Come on really, you think Trump would get a rats ares about those women if he was struggling to fulfill his main campaign promise; that is total BS.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

I don't know. What I do know, is that IT DOESN'T MATTER what he genuinely thinks, in determining whether or not mass rape represents a crisis.

Jim in CT: mass rape is a crisis.

Got Stripers: No it's not, because Trump is bad.

The women getting raped, don't care whether or not Trump's concern is sincere. The inner thoughts of one man, don't determine whether or not it's a crisis.

Jesus God Almighty. Before we can say that the Holocaust is bad, do we need to know what Trump thinks about the subject? Do you hear yourself?

[Nebe]

This is a diversionary crisis to steer attention away from the Mueller investigation.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[Pete F.]

Here's Trumps comments about walls and what to do when confronted with one, perhaps the Central Americans read this.
“Don’t give up. Don’t allow it to happen. If there’s a concrete wall in front of you, go through it, go over it, go around it, but get to the other side of that wall.”

[Got Stripers]

Just more justification by his base to convince us there is a national crisis and the facts prove otherwise. I’m not saying we don’t have a problem at the border and it can be addressed with comprehensive immigration reform, which may in fact include a wall in extremely vulnerable sections, but a wall sea to shining sea is overkill to say the least. We do have far more pressing national issues, opioid addiction, affordable health care, global warming and a crumbling infrastructure; what we have on the border is a decades long “ever present” problem. The child named Donny wants his ice cream and he’s not moving until he gets it, so hundreds of thousands are loosing their first paycheck because he and his party have taken the government hostage.
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[Pete F.]

I did not find anything directly referring to rapes and refugees in Mexico but I do see concerns they have about the US deportation method and that is something Trump could remedy today if he was truly concerned about a humanitarian crisis
https://www.doctorswithoutborders.or...ight-threatens
https://www.doctorswithoutborders.or...ees-each-month
https://www.doctorswithoutborders.or...-peoples-lives

They also expressed concerns about NAFTA 2.0 and it's effect on Generic drug prices, which we should all question
https://www.doctorswithoutborders.or...-public-health

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by Got Stripers

Just more justification by his base to convince us there is a national crisis and the facts prove otherwise. I’m not saying we don’t have a problem at the border and it can be addressed with comprehensive immigration reform, which may in fact include a wall in extremely vulnerable sections, but a wall sea to shining sea is overkill to say the least. We do have far more pressing national issues, opioid addiction, affordable health care, global warming and a crumbling infrastructure; what we have on the border is a decades long “ever present” problem. The child named Donny wants his ice cream and he’s not moving until he gets it, so hundreds of thousands are loosing their first paycheck because he and his party have taken the government hostage.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

Jim in CT: mass rape is a crisis.

Got Stripers: No it's not, because Trump is bad.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by Nebe

This is a diversionary crisis to steer attention away from the Mueller investigation.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

Jim in CT: mass rape is a crisis.

Nebe: No it's not, because Trump is bad.

[Got Stripers]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

Jim in CT: mass rape is a crisis.

Got Stripers: No it's not, because Trump is bad.

That assertion is full of BS as is your red hat waving insisting we have a full blown national crisis.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by Got Stripers

Just more justification by his base to convince us there is a national crisis and the facts prove otherwise. Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

Show me the facts that say it's not a crisis. You can say that all day long. But where are those facts? I've seen a few families on TV who lost family members, we all know gangs are crossing over, we all know that SOME drugs are crossing over, we all know that illegals are a huge drain on our economy, and now we appear to know that the people who attempt to cross illegally, are subjected to terrible violence.

Are you saying that's not what's happening? Or do you concede that's happening, but not worthy of the word crisis? because if Trump says crisis and you say problem, that's just semantics. It's not on par with nuclear war. But it's worse than a paper cut.

[The Dad Fisherman]

Originally Posted by Pete F.

I did not find anything directly referring to rapes and refugees in Mexico but I do see concerns they have about the US deportation method and that is something Trump could remedy today if he was truly concerned about a humanitarian crisis

https://www.doctorswithoutborders.or...thern-triangle

"Sixty-eight point three percent of the migrant and refugee populations entering Mexico reported being victims of violence during their transit toward the United States."

"Nearly one-third of the women surveyed had been sexually abused during their journey."

"MSF patients reported that the perpetrators of violence included members of gangs and other criminal organizations, as well as members of the Mexican security forces responsible for their protection."

"Sixty percent of the 166 people treated for sexual violence were raped, and 40 percent were exposed to sexual assault and other types of humiliation, including forced nudity."

[Pete F.]

Originally Posted by The Dad Fisherman

https://www.doctorswithoutborders.or...thern-triangle

"Sixty-eight point three percent of the migrant and refugee populations entering Mexico reported being victims of violence during their transit toward the United States."

"Nearly one-third of the women surveyed had been sexually abused during their journey."

"MSF patients reported that the perpetrators of violence included members of gangs and other criminal organizations, as well as members of the Mexican security forces responsible for their protection."

That was written in 2016, so how did that become the basis of the current crisis in the speech written by Stephen Miller for Trump?

While I'm convinced that problems exist, again, just how did it become the issue of the day in the last 3 weeks and not in the two previous years?

[Pete F.]

And if the big concern is about refugees perhaps you could look at this from Doctors without Borders:
Reynosa, Mexico/New York, NY—The United States is deporting people to highly dangerous border cities in Mexico at night, a practice needlessly risking the safety of an already extremely vulnerable group of people, said the international medical humanitarian organization Doctors Without Borders/Medecins Sans Frontieres (MSF) today.

Newly deported people are a preferred target for kidnapping and violent extortion by criminal groups operating in Mexico. After release from immigration detention, deportees are processed by US Customs and Border Patrol at the McAllen-Hidalgo international bridge in Texas at the border with Mexico. Deportees are received by Mexican authorities and moved to a returnee processing center in Reynosa. Migration processing can take more than three hours, meaning newly deported people find themselves in a location late at night where they are highly vulnerable and visible to criminal groups.

“Dumping people in dangerous cities which they don’t know after dark and putting them at even higher risk for kidnapping and violence, makes the already traumatic process of deportation needlessly more damaging,” said Marcelo Fernandez, head of mission for Mexico and Central America.“ The practice of nighttime deportation by the United States puts people’s lives at risk and must end immediately.”

Over a six-week period in October and early December, MSF documented 1,267 people deported to Reynosa after dark by the US government. Of those, 588 were deported after 8:00 pm. According to official figures, homicide rates in Reynosa have increased exponentially in the past two years, with attacks commonly attributed to conflicts between organized criminal groups. The violence is widespread, affecting both the local population and people on the move.

Desperate
DESPERATE JOURNEY: FLEEING INVISIBLE WARS IN CENTRAL AMERICA
READ MORE
MSF has repeatedly brought the risks of nighttime deportations to the attention of the US government, but the situation has not changed.

Humanitarian service providers, including MSF staff members that travel to and provide medical and psychosocial services at the border, are also exposed to a largely preventable risk when moving after dark.

Many returnees processed in Reynosa are not from the local area and must be transported to other parts of the country. Onward travel requires armed escort from state police. However, due to a recent armed attack against police escorting a returnee bus and other safety risks of traveling at night, returnees who arrive after dark are not permitted to continue their travel and must be taken to a local shelter run by the Catholic Sisters of the Order of Guadalupe, until it is safe to continue their journey.

These night movements put returnees at risk, as well as the people who are transporting them and taking care of them in shelters and clinics. Forcing all returnees to spend the night in the shelter also strains the resources of service providers and furthers the stress and anxiety of those who have been deported.

MSF is only able to provide limited services to its patients who arrive late at night and are transferred immediately to a shelter. Since October, two MSF patients attempted suicide shortly following their deportation. Without time and a safe place to provide comprehensive psychosocial assessments and treatment, there is considerable risk that other returnees with significant mental health needs will not receive the medical care they require.

“The US has a responsibility to ensure that the movement and deportation of people is done safely and causes no additional harm to deportees,” said Fernandez.

[The Dad Fisherman]

You said....

Originally Posted by Pete F.

I did not find anything directly referring to rapes and refugees in Mexico

I found something

Originally Posted by Pete F.

I did not find anything directly referring to rapes and refugees in Mexico

[Sea Dangles]

Gotcha Pete, that was years ago so pay no attention to that. Let’s focus on the little boy Trump killed at the border instead.
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[Pete F.]

Originally Posted by The Dad Fisherman

You said....



I found something

Thanks for finding that

[Pete F.]

Originally Posted by Sea Dangles

Gotcha Pete, that was years ago so pay no attention to that. Let’s focus on the little boy Trump killed at the border instead.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

If you think it's important

[Got Stripers]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

Show me the facts that say it's not a crisis. You can say that all day long. But where are those facts? I've seen a few families on TV who lost family members, we all know gangs are crossing over, we all know that SOME drugs are crossing over, we all know that illegals are a huge drain on our economy, and now we appear to know that the people who attempt to cross illegally, are subjected to terrible violence.

Are you saying that's not what's happening? Or do you concede that's happening, but not worthy of the word crisis? because if Trump says crisis and you say problem, that's just semantics. It's not on par with nuclear war. But it's worse than a paper cut.

It wouldn't matter if I posted link after link to articles with "real" statistics and the truth about immigration, you have your red hat tightly buttoned on your head, the blinders are on and ear plugs firmly affixed to keep anything from distracting you from staying the course. But feel free to google and take some time reading.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by The Dad Fisherman

https://www.doctorswithoutborders.or...thern-triangle

"Sixty-eight point three percent of the migrant and refugee populations entering Mexico reported being victims of violence during their transit toward the United States."

"Nearly one-third of the women surveyed had been sexually abused during their journey."

"MSF patients reported that the perpetrators of violence included members of gangs and other criminal organizations, as well as members of the Mexican security forces responsible for their protection."

"Sixty percent of the 166 people treated for sexual violence were raped, and 40 percent were exposed to sexual assault and other types of humiliation, including forced nudity."

STOP MANUFACTURING THINGS!!

[The Dad Fisherman]

Looks like Mexico has a real problem on their hands, they should get busy and address it.

Originally Posted by Pete F.

And if the big concern is about refugees perhaps you could look at this from Doctors without Borders:
Reynosa, Mexico/New York, NY—The United States is deporting people to highly dangerous border cities in Mexico at night, a practice needlessly risking the safety of an already extremely vulnerable group of people, said the international medical humanitarian organization Doctors Without Borders/Medecins Sans Frontieres (MSF) today.

Newly deported people are a preferred target for kidnapping and violent extortion by criminal groups operating in Mexico. After release from immigration detention, deportees are processed by US Customs and Border Patrol at the McAllen-Hidalgo international bridge in Texas at the border with Mexico. Deportees are received by Mexican authorities and moved to a returnee processing center in Reynosa. Migration processing can take more than three hours, meaning newly deported people find themselves in a location late at night where they are highly vulnerable and visible to criminal groups.

“Dumping people in dangerous cities which they don’t know after dark and putting them at even higher risk for kidnapping and violence, makes the already traumatic process of deportation needlessly more damaging,” said Marcelo Fernandez, head of mission for Mexico and Central America.“ The practice of nighttime deportation by the United States puts people’s lives at risk and must end immediately.”

Over a six-week period in October and early December, MSF documented 1,267 people deported to Reynosa after dark by the US government. Of those, 588 were deported after 8:00 pm. According to official figures, homicide rates in Reynosa have increased exponentially in the past two years, with attacks commonly attributed to conflicts between organized criminal groups. The violence is widespread, affecting both the local population and people on the move.

Desperate
DESPERATE JOURNEY: FLEEING INVISIBLE WARS IN CENTRAL AMERICA
READ MORE
MSF has repeatedly brought the risks of nighttime deportations to the attention of the US government, but the situation has not changed.

Humanitarian service providers, including MSF staff members that travel to and provide medical and psychosocial services at the border, are also exposed to a largely preventable risk when moving after dark.

Many returnees processed in Reynosa are not from the local area and must be transported to other parts of the country. Onward travel requires armed escort from state police. However, due to a recent armed attack against police escorting a returnee bus and other safety risks of traveling at night, returnees who arrive after dark are not permitted to continue their travel and must be taken to a local shelter run by the Catholic Sisters of the Order of Guadalupe, until it is safe to continue their journey.

These night movements put returnees at risk, as well as the people who are transporting them and taking care of them in shelters and clinics. Forcing all returnees to spend the night in the shelter also strains the resources of service providers and furthers the stress and anxiety of those who have been deported.

MSF is only able to provide limited services to its patients who arrive late at night and are transferred immediately to a shelter. Since October, two MSF patients attempted suicide shortly following their deportation. Without time and a safe place to provide comprehensive psychosocial assessments and treatment, there is considerable risk that other returnees with significant mental health needs will not receive the medical care they require.

“The US has a responsibility to ensure that the movement and deportation of people is done safely and causes no additional harm to deportees,” said Fernandez.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by Got Stripers

It wouldn't matter if I posted link after link to articles with "real" statistics and the truth about immigration, you have your red hat tightly buttoned on your head, the blinders are on and ear plugs firmly affixed to keep anything from distracting you from staying the course. But feel free to google and take some time reading.

I'm responding to the facts that I see. I have no red hat, not even close. If you have facts that show there's nothing to be worried about, I'll stop worrying.

[The Dad Fisherman]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

STOP MANUFACTURING THINGS!!

I wouldn't worry about it, it's old news.

I'm sure these new folks migrating have set rules in place to make sure all that rapey stuff stopped.

[Pete F.]

Originally Posted by The Dad Fisherman

I wouldn't worry about it, it's old news.

I'm sure these new folks migrating have set rules in place to make sure all that rapey stuff stopped.

Perhaps that is why they come in caravans, rather than alone.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by Pete F.

That was written in 2016, so how did that become the basis of the current crisis in the speech written by Stephen Miller for Trump?

While I'm convinced that problems exist, again, just how did it become the issue of the day in the last 3 weeks and not in the two previous years?

"That was written in 2016, so how did that become the basis of the current crisis in the speech written by Stephen Miller for Trump?"

So when you hear about this level of violence, and Trump says let's help these people...you aren't nearly as concerned with helping them, as you are with proving that Trump doesn't really care. You are concerned with finding a way to bash Trump, not with figuring out a way to stop these people from making this illegal journey which exposes them to such violence. What do you think that says about you?

"While I'm convinced that problems exist, again, just how did it become the issue of the day in the last 3 weeks and not in the two previous years?"

A great and fair question. Is answering that question, much more important than solving the problem? Can we do both at the same time? Let's address the problem, and also ask Trump, and everyone in Congress, why the hell they didn't address this on day one. I agree, that Trump and the GOP have MUCH to answer for, they could have done this 2 years ago, and should have. But what's the benefit, of continuing to ignore it?

[wdmso]

I get it Trump is worried about mass rapes so his solution is build a wall so they can’t get to the United States and that will prevent the rapes ... because they will stop trying to get here to be raped along the way ... brilliant
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[The Dad Fisherman]

Originally Posted by Pete F.

Perhaps that is why they come in caravans, rather than alone.

from same article

"An estimated 500,000 people cross into Mexico every year. The majority making up this massive forced migration flow originate from El Salvador, Honduras, and Guatemala"

or 1,370 people per day. 1 at a time??? Must look like ants heading towards a picnic

[Pete F.]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

"That was written in 2016, so how did that become the basis of the current crisis in the speech written by Stephen Miller for Trump?"

So when you hear about this level of violence, and Trump says let's help these people...you aren't nearly as concerned with helping them, as you are with proving that Trump doesn't really care. You are concerned with finding a way to bash Trump, not with figuring out a way to stop these people from making this illegal journey which exposes them to such violence. What do you think that says about you?

"While I'm convinced that problems exist, again, just how did it become the issue of the day in the last 3 weeks and not in the two previous years?"

A great and fair question. Is answering that question, much more important than solving the problem? Can we do both at the same time? Let's address the problem, and also ask Trump, and everyone in Congress, why the hell they didn't address this on day one. I agree, that Trump and the GOP have MUCH to answer for, they could have done this 2 years ago, and should have. But what's the benefit, of continuing to ignore it?

Is anything that Trump is holding the Government hostage for going to change tomorrow if he got his campaign promise fulfilled today?
This crisis should have been dealt with two years ago and did not become a crisis until Coulter and Limbaugh told Trump he was a failure if he did not get a wall. He was going to sign the budgets.
Pass the budgets and then show us some win win negotiation, walking out is a NY BS developer tactic that doesn't work in politics.
I'm not convinced that the Republicans want Trump to win this and it's pretty unlikely that he will get a 100% win.
I think they are looking for an opportunity to send him down the road and wash their hands of him to get the stink off.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by wdmso

I get it Trump is worried about mass rapes so his solution is build a wall so they can’t get to the United States and that will prevent the rapes ... because they will stop trying to get here to be raped along the way ... brilliant
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

Try to follow me here...

If our border is actually secure, they will know they can't get in, so less of them will try to make the trip, so less will get raped.

I agree with you, it's not brilliant, it's too simple to be brilliant.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by Pete F.

Is anything that Trump is holding the Government hostage for going to change tomorrow if he got his campaign promise fulfilled today?
This crisis should have been dealt with two years ago and did not become a crisis until Coulter and Limbaugh told Trump he was a failure if he did not get a wall. He was going to sign the budgets.
Pass the budgets and then show us some win win negotiation, walking out is a NY BS developer tactic that doesn't work in politics.
I'm not convinced that the Republicans want Trump to win this and it's pretty unlikely that he will get a 100% win.
I think they are looking for an opportunity to send him down the road and wash their hands of him to get the stink off.

"Is anything that Trump is holding the Government hostage for going to change tomorrow if he got his campaign promise fulfilled today?"

Nope, not tomorrow. But avoiding the issue, doesn't change anything either.

"This crisis should have been dealt with two years ago "

Why 2 years ago? You give Obama a pass for 8 years of doing nothing? I agree Trump should have done it on day one. But it should have been addressed before he ran. Obama also campaigned in 2008 on fixing this, and he didn't, and he caught some heat from democrats for that, as Trump should today.

"Pass the budgets and then show us some win win negotiation"

Nope. Not in this climate. The democrats won't allow him to get a win, unless he has the shutdown as leverage. They'd rather let people continue to suffer, than let him enjoy a win. It's horrible, but it is what it is. If the democrats compromised today, he'd open the government tomorrow. If he opens the government today, they will never agree to the wall. Their hatred of him outweighs their obligations to serve us.

"it's pretty unlikely that he will get a 100% win."

I don't see how he can agree to anything that doesn't include a wall, maybe some addiitons to the existing structure. Who knows.

"I think they are looking for an opportunity to send him down the road and wash their hands of him to get the stink #^&#^&#^&#^&

I don't see much evidence of that, maybe a few legislators who hate him.