We need a leader like this

[buckman]

Prime Minister John Howard Australia:Muslims who want to live under Islamic Sharia law were told on Wednesday to get out of Australia , as the government targeted radicals in a bid to head off potential terror attacks.

Separately, Howard angered some Australian Muslims on Wednesday by saying he supported spy agencies monitoring the nation's mosques.
Quote: 'IMMIGRANTS, NOT AUSTRALIANS, MUST ADAPT. Take It Or Leave It. I am tired of this nation worrying about whether we are offending some individual or their culture. Since the terrorist attacks on Bali , we have experienced a surge in patriotism by the majority of Australians'.

'This culture has been developed over two centuries of struggles, trials and victories by millions of men and women who have sought freedom'. 'We speak mainly ENGLISH, not Spanish, Lebanese, Arabic, Chinese, Japanese, Russian, or any other language. Therefore, if you wish to become part of our society . Learn the language!'

'Most Australians believe in God. This is not some Christian, right wing, political push, but a fact, because Christian men and women, on Christian principles, founded this nation, and this is clearly documented. It is certainly appropriate to display it o n the walls of our schools. If God offends you, then I suggest you consider another part of the world as your new home, because God is part of our culture.'

'We will accept your beliefs, and will not question why. All we ask is that you accept ours, and live in harmony and peaceful enjoyment with us.'

'This is OUR COUNTRY, OUR LAND, and OUR LIFE STYLE, and we will allow you every opportunity to enjoy all this. But once you are done complaining, whining, and griping about Our Flag, Our Pledge, Our Christian beliefs, or Our Way of Life, I highly encourage you take advantage of one other great Australian freedom,

'THE RIGHT TO LEAVE'.'

[likwid]

Amendment 1 - Freedom of Religion, Press, Expression. Ratified 12/15/1791.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.



Please leave. Thanks.

[Nebe]

Sounds like Buckman found the fountain of youth. You gotta love a country that raped just about every woman to get off the boats when it started to be colonized. Yep.. a nation who's founding fathers were a bunch of convicts deported from England. Once you understand how Australia was colonized, the irony of this statement of 'get out' is hilarious.

[GattaFish]

This what we need here,,,, Especially since so many people died for us to live FREE and speak English.

[RIJIMMY]

Originally Posted by Nebe

Sounds like Buckman found the fountain of youth. You gotta love a country that raped just about every woman to get off the boats when it started to be colonized. Yep.. a nation who's founding fathers were a bunch of convicts deported from England. Once you understand how Australia was colonized, the irony of this statement of 'get out' is hilarious.

Come on Nebe, the history of our country is not that glamorous either.

[buckman]

Originally Posted by RIJIMMY

Come on Nebe, the history of our country is not that glamorous either.

Might be why he has mixed feelings about America

Really, what's so wrong about the speach?

[Nebe]

Originally Posted by RIJIMMY

Come on Nebe, the history of our country is not that glamorous either.

really? was our country's founding fathers a bunch of convicts? I think not. Our country was founded by people eager to search out new lands in which they could live in freedom and practice their religions free from tyranny. Yes, there was issues with native americans.. cant argue with that one.

[Raven]

Originally Posted by RIJIMMY

Come on Nebe, the history of our country is not that glamorous either.

Jimmy is correct... they were a bunch of booze head smugglers and crooks... even the kennedy clans money originated from smuggled
moonshine... Andrew Jackson was no better...he had great penmanship though

[Joe]

Maybe its just a political oppportunist capitalizing on a surge of patroitism by talking tough?
After the speech, is a terrorist attack more or less likely?
I'd say more.
Does a responsible leader make incendiary comments that jeapordizes lives?

[The Dad Fisherman]

Originally Posted by buckman

Really, what's so wrong about the speach?

Because he never really said it....It's an e-mail going around that contains excerpts from things that other people said and in a different context.

in other words BS...

According to this email forward, former Australian Prime Minister John Howard informed Muslims living in Australia in no uncertain terms that they should leave the country if they wished to live under Islamic Sharia law. The message claims that the then Australian government was intent on targeting Muslim radicals "in a bid to head off potential terror attacks". The email also quotes a no-holds-barred diatribe about immigration supposedly delivered by John Howard. The message suggests that political leaders in Canada and the United States would do well to follow the lead of the Australian Prime Minister with regard to immigration policy.

However, although the message does contain elements of truth, it is in fact highly misleading and inaccurate. At the outset, it should be noted that the message is now quite outdated. Versions of the email began circulating back in 2005. Since then, there has been a change of government in Australia. The Howard Government was resoundingly defeated in November 2007 and the current Australian Prime Minister is Labor's Kevin Rudd. However, the message contains no date and some non-Australian recipients may therefore wrongly assume that it refers to current events rather than events that occurred several years ago in a somewhat different political climate.

The first part of the message suggests that Prime Minister Howard told Muslims who wished to live under Islamic Sharia law that they should get out of Australia. This is partly true in the sense that a high profile Australian political leader did make comments suggesting that Islamic extremists who desired to turn Australia into an Islamic state should leave and that Howard condoned such strongly worded rhetoric. However, it was in fact then Federal Treasurer Peter Costello who actually uttered the comments. A November 2005 article in the Herald Sun notes:
ISLAMIC extremists wanting to enforce fundamentalist law should get out of Australia, federal Treasurer Peter Costello said yesterday.

In a significant hardening of the Government's rhetoric, Mr Costello declared Australia would never be turned into an Islamic state.

"There are Islamic states around the world that practise sharia law," he said. "And if that is your object, you may well be much more at home in such a country than trying to turn Australia into one of those countries, because it is not going to happen."
Then Federal Education Minister Dr Brendan Nelson was also quoted in the media as stating that "those who do not accept and teach Australian values should 'clear off'".

The message also claims that John Howard had given government support to spy agencies monitoring the nation's mosques. This element of the message is true. An August 2005 article in The Age notes:
Mosques and Islamic schools will be targeted by intelligence agencies as the federal government tries to stamp out homegrown terrorism and extremists.

Prime Minister John Howard said on top of trying to promote Australian values in Islamic schools, the government would monitor what was said in certain schools and mosques to ensure they did not foster terrorism.

Asked whether he was prepared to "get inside" mosques and schools to ensure there was no support for terrorism, Mr Howard was blunt.

"Yes, to the extent necessary," Mr Howard told Southern Cross radio.
Mr Howard qualified the above stance by making clear that his government was not trying to interfere with religious freedoms but only gather intelligence on potential religious or material support for terrorist activities within the Australian Islamic community:
"I have no desire and nor is it the government's intention to interfere in any way with the freedom or practice of religion.

"We have a right to know whether there is, within any section of the Islamic community, a preaching of the virtues of terrorism, whether any comfort or harbour is given to terrorism within that community."
The next part of the message transcribes what is claimed to be a speech delivered by John Howard detailing his views on immigration. The piece calls on immigrants to learn English, adapt to Australian values and lifestyle and pointedly reminds them that they always have the right to leave if they are unhappy in their adopted country.

However, the quoted words were not made by John Howard and were circulating in various forms years before he supposedly uttered them. In fact, the words were originally intended for an American audience and were part of a longer piece penned by Barry Loudermilk, a US Air Force veteran and columnist for a local newspaper in the American state of Georgia. Loudermilk wrote the article as a means of expressing his personal views on patriotism and immigration in post-9/11 America.

The article struck a chord with many readers in the US and elsewhere and it soon spread far and wide via email and other means. At some point, versions adapted to Australia, the UK, and elsewhere began circulating. Finally, the Australianized version of Loudermilk's article was falsely attributed to John Howard and tacked on to the original, more accurate, variant of the above email forward (quoted below):
Muslims who want to live under Islamic Sharia law were told on Wednesday to get out of Australia, as the government targeted radicals in a bid to head off potential terror attacks.

A day after a group of mainstream Muslim leaders pledged loyalty to Australia and her Queen at a special meeting with Prime Minister John Howard, he and his Ministers made it clear that extremists would face a crackdown.

Treasurer Peter Costello, seen as heir apparent to Howard, hinted that some radical clerics could be asked to leave the country if they did not accept that Australia was a secular state, and its laws were made by parliament.

"If those are not your values, if you want a country which has Sharia law or a theocratic state, then Australia is not for you," he said on national television.

"I'd be saying to clerics who are teaching that there are two laws governing people in Australia: one the Australian law and another the Islamic law, that is false. If you can't agree with parliamentary law, independent courts, democracy, and would prefer Sharia law and have the opportunity to go to another country, which practices it, perhaps, then, that's a better option," Costello said.

Asked whether he meant radical clerics would be forced to leave, he said those with dual citizenship could possibly be asked to move to the other country.

Education Minister Brendan Nelson later told reporters that Muslims who did not want to accept local values should "clear off. Basically, people who don't want to be Australians, and who don't want to live by Australian values and understand them, well then, they can basically clear off," he said.
Thus, while the more lengthy version of message that includes Loudermilk's article is still partially factual, it is nonetheless outdated, contains inaccurate information and may perpetrate a quite misleading understanding of Australia's policies on immigration in general and Muslims in particular. Taken out of context, and with the falsely attributed Loudermilk article thrown into the mix, this email may give the impression that Australia is intolerant of migrants, especially those of the Muslim faith. This is not the case. One of Australia's great strengths is its rich cultural diversity and it welcomes migrants from all parts of the world and with many and varied systems of belief.

Sending on factually dubious information such as this is unlikely to be helpful and may even add to the cultural divisions and misunderstandings that plague our strife-torn world.

[RIJIMMY]

Originally Posted by Nebe

really? was our country's founding fathers a bunch of convicts? I think not. Our country was founded by people eager to search out new lands in which they could live in freedom and practice their religions free from tyranny. Yes, there was issues with native americans.. cant argue with that one.

when you read that Indian villages were wiped out by disease, most of that was due to sexually transmitted diseases due to rape of the woman by the settlers. We all know the nice pilgrim story, but this country was settled by some pretty slimy characthers looking to make a fast buck. Its still the home I love though.
My wife and I have thought of moving to Australia, she has family there.

[Nebe]

my point has been proven. The guys statement was bogus.

[PaulS]

Originally Posted by Nebe

my point has been proven. The guys statement was bogus.

Actually, they weren't his statements

[buckman]

My bad for posting this. But really who would disagree with it anyway. Seems reasonable, fair and to the point.

I don't see it as asking for trouble. You would have to be walking around scared and on eggshells to think that. That's no way to go through life.

[JohnnyD]

A farce or not, this is my favorite part:

'This culture has been developed over two centuries of struggles, trials and victories by millions of men and women who have sought freedom'. 'We speak mainly ENGLISH, not Spanish, Lebanese, Arabic, Chinese, Japanese, Russian, or any other language. Therefore, if you wish to become part of our society . Learn the language!'

This is my biggest pet-peave in this country, and makes me visibly angry. The on that gets me the most is when I called Comcast the other day and had to "Press 1 for English." Or how about going to Dunkin and not understanding a word the person on the other side of the counter is saying - I'm sure everyone here has experienced that one.

[Joe]

Originally Posted by buckman

I don't see it as asking for trouble. You would have to be walking around scared and on eggshells to think that. That's no way to go through life.

I don't agree with this b.s. speech, but I might agree with the next one.

[likwid]

Originally Posted by buckman

I don't see it as asking for trouble. You would have to be walking around scared and on eggshells to think that. That's no way to go through life.

Telling a gangster "I'm not afraid of you and your gun" is a good way to get shot.

Not a good way to go through life.

[Nebe]

Originally Posted by JohnnyD

A farce or not, this is my favorite part:


This is my biggest pet-peave in this country, and makes me visibly angry. The on that gets me the most is when I called Comcast the other day and had to "Press 1 for English." Or how about going to Dunkin and not understanding a word the person on the other side of the counter is saying - I'm sure everyone here has experienced that one.

can you speak native american?

[JohnnyD]

Originally Posted by Nebe

can you speak native american?

Nope. I also don't buy into the "we're all the decedents of immigrants" shtick either. While true, that can be said about every single civilization if you go back in time long enough.

This is not an imperialized nation any longer, hasn't been for well over 2 centuries now. If I decided to move to Beijing, it would be with the understanding that I would have to change and learn the local language.

It is unacceptable for people to come here and think that we need to change in order to accommodate them.

[fishbones]

Originally Posted by Nebe

can you speak native american?

Does "$20 on eight and put $5 on a hard four" qualify? If so, I am bi-lingual.

[The Dad Fisherman]

Originally Posted by JohnnyD

If I decided to move to Beijing, it would be with the understanding that I would have to change and learn the local language.

OK You've moved to Beijing....learn Chinese....NOW.....what you've been here 2 weeks and you can't speak Chinese....LEAVE!!

Takes time, you know, to learn a new language. Doesn't happen overnight.....

Its a friggin button on a phone...and it bothers you that much. What is it changing for you....your still talking to a person in english after you hit the button.

Now if they MADE you speak a different language I can see it causing you some stress.....but please, its just a button on a phone. Its there to help people and it doesn't cost you one red cent....its a freebie kind of help.

[PaulS]

I believe if your trying for citizenship, you have to pass an English test if your under 50 years old. Over 50, no test.

[fishbones]

As Americans, we're pretty egocentric when it comes to the language thing. I think it would be great if everyone spoke perfect English in the USA, but I understand immigrants here who are trying to learn a new language are going to have struggles. As long as they try to learn English, I give them credit. I've been to several countries and the locals, for the most part speak English along with their own language. And the American tourists expect it. Here in the US, a tourist from Chile couldn't walk into Mortons Steakhouse in Boston and expect their server to speak to them in their native language.

[The Dad Fisherman]

Originally Posted by fishbones

As Americans, we're pretty egocentric when it comes to the language thing. I think it would be great if everyone spoke perfect English in the USA, but I understand immigrants here who are trying to learn a new language are going to have struggles. As long as they try to learn English, I give them credit. I've been to several countries and the locals, for the most part speak English along with their own language. And the American tourists expect it. Here in the US, a tourist from Chile couldn't walk into Mortons Steakhouse in Boston and expect their server to speak to them in their native language.

That is perfect...and the key is as long as they are trying. And it wouldn't hurt us to help them and not treat them like they are inferior in the process.

All I ask of somebody coming to this country is to do it legally, work a steady job and try to learn the culture here.

[spence]

Originally Posted by buckman

My bad for posting this. But really who would disagree with it anyway. Seems reasonable, fair and to the point.

I don't see it as asking for trouble. You would have to be walking around scared and on eggshells to think that. That's no way to go through life.

There are a lot of people who would agree that wiretapping mosques is a prudent action because most terrorists are Muslims.

Unfortunately it's also racist, immoral, illegal and goes against the very fabric that our nation was founded on.

Militant Islamists use the argument that the West is out to destroy Islam as a primary tool to gain sympathy from moderates and push those on the fringe toward the dark side.

Asserting that all Muslims are suspects because of their religion and culture, by those who also claim that adhering to the rule of law gives unique legitimacy, it completely hypocritical and plays into the hand of those wishing to incite terrorism.

By starting this thread you may have very likely helped to bring on another attack.

Good job.

-spence

[Mike P]

Originally Posted by Nebe

really? was our country's founding fathers a bunch of convicts? I think not. .

Only the ones from Georgia

[spence]

What really inspires me about our Founding Fathers is their incredible understanding of human nature.

There's a lot to be learned from them.

-spence

[JohnnyD]

Originally Posted by The Dad Fisherman

OK You've moved to Beijing....learn Chinese....NOW.....what you've been here 2 weeks and you can't speak Chinese....LEAVE!!

Takes time, you know, to learn a new language. Doesn't happen overnight.....

Its a friggin button on a phone...and it bothers you that much. What is it changing for you....your still talking to a person in english after you hit the button.

Now if they MADE you speak a different language I can see it causing you some stress.....but please, its just a button on a phone. Its there to help people and it doesn't cost you one red cent....its a freebie kind of help.

Your challenge is predicated by the idea that I moved to Beijing on a whim. A responsible person would start learning a language as soon as they decide (or are told, in the case of business) that they are moving to a new country. I understand people actively trying to learn the language, it is definitely a difficult process. However, there are people that have been here decades and still need their kids to translate for them... give me a break. And like I said before, people working in a food service business should speak English.

Not to mention the plethora of "English as a second language" classes that are offered just about everywhere. My point was the expectation that someone from immigrates here, then the US and it's citizens are expected to acclimate themselves to the immigrant as opposed to the immigrant acclimating themselves to the US.

[JohnnyD]

Originally Posted by spence

What really inspires me about our Founding Fathers is their incredible understanding of human nature.

There's a lot to be learned from them.

-spence

spence, whenever I sit and think about the complexity of understanding when it comes to how the Founding Fathers developed the Constitution and Bill of Rights, I am completely astounded.

To think that a document more than 200 years old has stood the test of time and is still extremely relevant and fully applicable today is amazing to consider. Granted, it took them two tries, but nothing is perfect on the first try.

[spence]

Originally Posted by JohnnyD

To think that a document more than 200 years old has stood the test of time and is still extremely relevant and fully applicable today is amazing to consider.

What I find even more astounding is how the Conservative movement in this country was (and to a degree still is) completely hoodwinked by neoconservatism.

Imagine Washington and Jefferson in an online critique the Bush Doctrine

I can just see GW throwing his wooden teeth at the webcamera shouting "9/11 changed everything my ass"!





-spence