Obama's VA Secretary says wait lines at VA Hosp are like wait lines at Disney

[Jim in CT]

When I heard about this comment, I actually didn't believe it. Obama managed to select a Secretary Of Veterans Affairs, who would make this comparison. I had very low hopes for this man after his radical views came to light, but he has done things that even I could not have imagined. We know that vets died while waiting for care at VA hospitals, we know this. Yet he makes his claim. Not mush of a peep from Democrats in response. I can't understand how we got this far astray, and I have no idea what unites us as Americans anymore.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/video/...nes/vi-BBto0A4

[spence]

It wasn't the most artful remark but I don't disagree with what he was trying to say. He was criticized by dems if you'd bother to lift a finger...

West Point grad who had a distinguished service in the Army, great executive career contributing to the US economy, unanimous vote in the Senate and you want to hang the guy because of one remark.............because you hate Obama.

And you wonder why you "have no idea what unites us as Americans anymore."

[Nebe]

Well put spence.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[Jim in CT]

Spence, it's really a shame that you weren't around to be Hitler's apologist-in-chief.

You will not, and can not, ever, admit that a Democrat is a jerk, or even that they ever screwed up. What do thjey have on you, anyway? When did you stop thinking?

West Point graduates a-holes, too.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by spence

I don't disagree with what he was trying to say.

OK. So to you, there is do difference between...

(1) a family at Disney, waiting in line for an hour, by their choice, to get on "It's A Small World", and

(2) a wounded veteran, injured while serving his country, that has to wait 30 days to see a doctor?

By your admission, those 2 things are indistinguishable to you. Well here is a difference. Some might say it's not a small difference. No one ever died from #1. We know that people, selfless patriots, have died because of #2. By your admission, vets dying because of a lack of available care, is no more concerning to you (nor to the Secretary of Vets Affairs) than having to wait in line at an amusement park. Same thing. One is no more of a natoinal concern (or shame) than the other.

Remarks matter. When Bush told teh Fema head that he was "doing a heck of a job" while people were dying in New Orleans 3 days after the wind stopped blowing, it was a Godawful, stupid, insensitive thing to say. I am abke to say that about a Republican. You can't do the same. Amazing.



Welcome to The Twiligt Zone.

[spence]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

OK. So to you, there is do difference between...

(1) a family at Disney, waiting in line for an hour, by their choice, to get on "It's A Small World", and

(2) a wounded veteran, injured while serving his country, that has to wait 30 days to see a doctor?

By your admission, those 2 things are indistinguishable to you.

Jim, as usual you're failing to see the point of his remark. Macdonald wasn't asserting the two were the same, his point was that the focus should be on the overall quality of care rather than dwell on a single metric. That doesn't mean that wait time isn't important, but it's a single component of a large system.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by spence

Jim, as usual you're failing to see the point of his remark. Macdonald wasn't asserting the two were the same, his point was that the focus should be on the overall quality of care rather than dwell on a single metric. That doesn't mean that wait time isn't important, but it's a single component of a large system.

His point was that people dying while waiting for care at a VA hospital, says nothing more about the level of service provided, than someone who waits in line at an amusement park.


So what he (and you) are is this...if there are lines at Disney, that's no more of a blemish to Disney, than dead bodies in the waiting room are at a VA Hospital.

Spence, if you had to wait in lines at Disney, and then you had to wait more than 30 days to get treated at a hospital, and you had to fill out a satisfaction survey for both entities, you'd give them the same score? You don't hold a hospitalk more accountable for wait times that are literallyu fatal, than you hold Disney accountable for ride lines?

Bullsh*t.

No one has the right to expect short lines at Disney. In my opinion (which you and McDonald disagree with), vets should have the right to get seen by a doctor before they die from their injuries. That's just me, missing the point all the time, and failing to see the brilliant, subtle nuances of the Secretary selected by your beloved man crush.

[spence]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

His point was that people dying while waiting for care at a VA hospital, says nothing more about the level of service provided, than someone who waits in line at an amusement park.


So what he (and you) are is this...if there are lines at Disney, that's no more of a blemish to Disney, than dead bodies in the waiting room are at a VA Hospital.

Spence, if you had to wait in lines at Disney, and then you had to wait more than 30 days to get treated at a hospital, and you had to fill out a satisfaction survey for both entities, you'd give them the same score? You don't hold a hospitalk more accountable for wait times that are literallyu fatal, than you hold Disney accountable for ride lines?

Bullsh*t.

No one has the right to expect short lines at Disney. In my opinion (which you and McDonald disagree with), vets should have the right to get seen by a doctor before they die from their injuries. That's just me, missing the point all the time, and failing to see the brilliant, subtle nuances of the Secretary selected by your beloved man crush.

Jim, as usual you're failing to see the point of his remark. Macdonald wasn't asserting the two were the same, his point was that the focus should be on the overall quality of care rather than dwell on a single metric. That doesn't mean that wait time isn't important, but it's a single component of a large system.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by spence

Jim, as usual you're failing to see the point of his remark. Macdonald wasn't asserting the two were the same, his point was that the focus should be on the overall quality of care rather than dwell on a single metric. That doesn't mean that wait time isn't important, but it's a single component of a large system.

And how good is the overall quality of a healthcare system, when people are dying because it takes thirty days or more to see a doctor? How does such a syatem get any grade other than 'F'?

I concede that wait times aren't the only measure of quality. But when wait times are literally killing our vets, most rational people would conclude that the overall quality of care is in shambles. By contrast, ride lines at Disney are not the most important aspect o fthe trip.

Maybe if I put it simply, you can get it...if you take your family to Disney and the lines are long, naturally you can still have a positive overall experience. If you have a combat-related brain injury and die before you get to see a doctor, I don't know that you'd be as capable of having a positive overall experience.

Fatal wait lines at a veterans healthcare facility, necessarily mean that things are a mess. Wait lines at an amusement park can be meaningless.

Am I going too fast? .

[wdmso]

funny I have had no issues with getting timely appointments thru the Va in Providence or Boston from MRI to Hearing Aids .. I just see this as another Manufactured issue from the right .. just another topic that magically showed up when Obama took office..

Are there some issues with the Volumes of service members entering the system yes . but you can't fit 100 passengers on a 25 passenger bus but dont want to buy new buses


http://taskandpurpose.com/va-bosses-...g-new-reports/

Altogether, 40 VA hospitals and clinics across the U.S. and Puerto Rico were found to be “zeroing out” wait times

The Veterans Health Administration (VHA) is home to the United States' largest integrated health care system consisting of 152 medical centers. In addition, there are nearly 800 community-based outpatient clinics, 126 nursing home care units and 35 domiciliaries.

So you have to wait you learn in the military it always Hurry up and Wait.. honestly who hasn't waited for an appointment.. if its an emergency you go to the emergency room... not any easier than that

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by wdmso

funny I have had no issues with getting timely appointments thru the Va in Providence or Boston from MRI to Hearing Aids .. I just see this as another Manufactured issue from the right .. just another topic that magically showed up when Obama took office..

Are there some issues with the Volumes of service members entering the system yes . but you can't fit 100 passengers on a 25 passenger bus but dont want to buy new buses


http://taskandpurpose.com/va-bosses-...g-new-reports/

Altogether, 40 VA hospitals and clinics across the U.S. and Puerto Rico were found to be “zeroing out” wait times

The Veterans Health Administration (VHA) is home to the United States' largest integrated health care system consisting of 152 medical centers. In addition, there are nearly 800 community-based outpatient clinics, 126 nursing home care units and 35 domiciliaries.

So you have to wait you learn in the military it always Hurry up and Wait.. honestly who hasn't waited for an appointment.. if its an emergency you go to the emergency room... not any easier than that

"I have had no issues "


Hmm, how to break this to you...your experience doesn't necessarily reflect the experience of everyone else. For example, I didn't get hit by a drunk driver yesterday. Does that mean that drunk driving is a manufactured issue? Does that sound like sound logic to you?

"I just see this as another Manufactured issue from the right "

Well, that explains why the right-wing nut named Barack Obama, is quoted in the right-wing website called The Huffington Post, as saying there actually is an issue.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/0...n_6867142.html

"who hasn't waited for an appointment"

People have died while waiting. If that's not an issue for you, you have the right to not care about that. Lots of people, on both sides, are outraged.

Another article from the right-wing network called CNN...

http://www.cnn.com/2014/04/23/health...ays/index.html

From the article..."The secret list was part of an elaborate scheme designed by Veterans Affairs managers in Phoenix who were trying to hide that 1,400 to 1,600 sick veterans were forced to wait months to see a doctor"

And somehow, the Secretary of Vets Affairs say that this practice is no more of a blemish to his organization than ride lines are at Disney.

[buckman]

Originally Posted by spence

Jim, as usual you're failing to see the point of his remark. Macdonald wasn't asserting the two were the same, his point was that the focus should be on the overall quality of care rather than dwell on a single metric. That doesn't mean that wait time isn't important, but it's a single component of a large system.

I agree . People sometimes speak without analyzing every word to be spoken . I give the guy a pass on this as long as he is competent and getting the results that our veterans deserve . If he can't get the job done then someone else should take his place
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[scottw]

Originally Posted by wdmso

. I just see this as another Manufactured issue from the right .. just another topic that magically showed up when Obama took office..

The Walter Reed Army Medical Center neglect scandal refers to a series of allegations of unsatisfactory conditions, treatment of patients, and management at the Walter Reed Army Medical Center (WRAMC) in Washington, D.C. culminating in two articles published by The Washington Post in February 2007. Several cases of patient neglect and shoddy living conditions were reported as early as 2004. "Soldiers suffering from traumatic brain injuries or stress disorders, others with amputated limbs, have languished for weeks and months on end in vermin-infested quarters waiting for a decision on their military status and a ruling on the level of benefits they will receive if they are discharged and transferred to the civilian-run Veterans Administration (VA) healthcare system."


http://www.disabledveterans.org/2014...dministration/

http://www.usnews.com/news/national/...enefits-claims

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/17117430/n...then-big-cuts/


just sayin'

[wdmso]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

"I have had no issues "


Hmm, how to break this to you...your experience doesn't necessarily reflect the experience of everyone else. For example, I didn't get hit by a drunk driver yesterday. Does that mean that drunk driving is a manufactured issue? Does that sound like sound logic to you?

"I just see this as another Manufactured issue from the right "

Well, that explains why the right-wing nut named Barack Obama, is quoted in the right-wing website called The Huffington Post, as saying there actually is an issue.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/0...n_6867142.html

"who hasn't waited for an appointment"

People have died while waiting. If that's not an issue for you, you have the right to not care about that. Lots of people, on both sides, are outraged.

Another article from the right-wing network called CNN...

http://www.cnn.com/2014/04/23/health...ays/index.html

From the article..."The secret list was part of an elaborate scheme designed by Veterans Affairs managers in Phoenix who were trying to hide that 1,400 to 1,600 sick veterans were forced to wait months to see a doctor"

And somehow, the Secretary of Vets Affairs say that this practice is no more of a blemish to his organization than ride lines are at Disney.

Hmm, how to break this to you...your experience doesn't necessarily reflect the experience of everyone else.

But you seem to think those who have waited is everyones experience ??? and carry more weight then my experience ... you just cant get past the Obama is president thing

[wdmso]

Originally Posted by scottw

The Walter Reed Army Medical Center neglect scandal refers to a series of allegations of unsatisfactory conditions, treatment of patients, and management at the Walter Reed Army Medical Center (WRAMC) in Washington, D.C. culminating in two articles published by The Washington Post in February 2007. Several cases of patient neglect and shoddy living conditions were reported as early as 2004. "Soldiers suffering from traumatic brain injuries or stress disorders, others with amputated limbs, have languished for weeks and months on end in vermin-infested quarters waiting for a decision on their military status and a ruling on the level of benefits they will receive if they are discharged and transferred to the civilian-run Veterans Administration (VA) healthcare system."


http://www.disabledveterans.org/2014...dministration/

http://www.usnews.com/news/national/...enefits-claims

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/17117430/n...then-big-cuts/



just sayin'

Thanks for making my point theses issues haven't magically appeared under current adminstration

patient neglect and shoddy living conditions were reported as early as 2004. "Soldiers suffering from traumatic brain injuries or stress disorders, others with amputated limbs, have languished for weeks and months on end in vermin-infested quarters

Are a far bigger outrage then waiting for an appointment .. Big picture

[scottw]

Originally Posted by wdmso

. I just see this as another Manufactured issue from the right .. just another topic that magically showed up when Obama took office..

[QUOTE=wdmso;1101230]

Thanks for making my point theses issues haven't magically appeared under current adminstration.

[scottw]

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...eran/?page=all

https://www.buzzfeed.com/andrewkaczy...-reform-the-va

Obama 2014: "We'll keep slashing that backlog so our veterans receive the benefits they've earned, and our wounded warriors receive the healthcare, including the mental healthcare, that they need. We'll keep working to help all our veterans translate their skills and leadership into jobs here at home."

Reality: Obama's promise to reduce the backlog of benefits applications at the Department of Veterans Affairs preceded a period of intense scrutiny for the VA, coming less than three months before the national wait-time scandal was exposed. In April of that year, whistleblowers revealed 110 VA facilities around the country had created fake patient waiting lists to cover up long delays in care.

Nearly 850,000 veterans are still in the backlog waiting to be enrolled in the VA's benefits system, a process that must be completed before they can get in line to make an appointment with a doctor. That number is unchanged from 2012.

[wdmso]

So does the right have a plan for fixing the issue or is their plan only to blame the current administration for the problem ..

like the Current TSA outrage over several hours long lines

Again another thing that hasn't happen to me flying from Boston to Germany last year or Boston to miami and back this year 2 times no issues or i am the luckest guy in the VA and in a TSA line


looks like its its a few airports kinda like the VA a few places with big issues issues Shocking

[buckman]

Originally Posted by wdmso

So does the right have a plan for fixing the issue or is their plan only to blame the current administration for the problem ..

like the Current TSA outrage over several hours long lines

Again another thing that hasn't happen to me flying from Boston to Germany last year or Boston to miami and back this year 2 times no issues or i am the luckest guy in the VA and in a TSA line


looks like its its a few airports kinda like the VA a few places with big issues issues Shocking

Except people aren't dying in the TSA lines . You didn't learn at all did you ?
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[scottw]

Originally Posted by wdmso

So does the right have a plan for fixing the issue or is their plan only to blame the current administration for the problem ..

I guess you'd have to ask "the right"...

the current administration and specifically did Obama did a lot of their own criticizing and made quite a few promises that have not come to fruition which is why they are currently receiving their own criticism...it actually makes sense

[wdmso]

Originally Posted by buckman

Except people aren't dying in the TSA lines . You didn't learn at all did you ?
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

In one case, a veteran who applied for VA care in 1998 was placed in "pending" status for 14 years. Another veteran who passed away in 1988 was found to have an unprocessed record lingering in 2014, the investigation found.


So theses people died 14 years later from lack of care ?? from the VA and never had any other medical choices like medicare or other choices

Seem's your making the claim the VA killed them for lack of medical
care.. I dont see that as the cause I see it as some applied and didn't follow up not all but most what was the ages of theses 307,000 deceased veterans .... ww2 korea era Vietnam current ? what did they die from did the get any treatment any place?

The VA's inspector general found that out of about 800,000 records stalled in the agency's system for managing health care enrollment, there were more than 307,000 records that belonged to veterans who had died months or years in the past.

their are issues no doubt and have been for decades but its not as you suggest

[wdmso]

Originally Posted by scottw

I guess you'd have to ask "the right"...

the current administration and specifically did Obama did a lot of their own criticizing and made quite a few promises that have not come to fruition which is why they are currently receiving their own criticism...it actually makes sense

not against criticizing but I see congress inability to give the POTUS a bill to sign to fix the issues and the one he was given and signed for vets to use local doctors had 10 days to be started and is a total disaster

http://www.usnews.com/opinion/articl...compared-to-va

http://www.militarytimes.com/story/v...gram/84869924/

[scottw]

[QUOTE=wdmso;1101251]not against criticizing but I see congress inability to give the POTUS a bill to sign



since when does Obama need a bill or congress?

great line in one of those articles

"For example, our research has shown that only 35 percent of veterans living far from VA facilities live within 40 miles of a private sector oncologist, meaning that veterans with cancer who live far from VA are more likely than not to live far from the care they need, regardless of who provides that care. Whether the Veterans Choice program increases access for veterans living in rural and remote areas, especially for those in need of specialty care, is unknown."


after reading this nonsense I'm "more likely than not" dismissing the entire article

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by wdmso

Seem's your making the claim the VA killed them for lack of medical
care.. I dont see that

Well, CNN (which is not exactly a right-wing organization) does see it that way.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/04/23/health...ays/index.html

These problems existed before Obama took office. Many Americans think we should do whatever it takes to fix this, and the fact that we can't, shows how impotent our system currently is. Both sides share some blame.

I started this post becaise I found it appalling that McDonald compared (and he absolutely did compare) the effect of waiting in line for an hour at DisneyWorld, to the effect of waiting weeks for care at a Veterans hospital. It's shocking to me that any average idiot would say that. For the Secretary Of Veterans Affairs to say that? When he knows he's on camera?

Thank Christ it's almost over.

[spence]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

I started this post becaise I found it appalling that McDonald compared (and he absolutely did compare) the effect of waiting in line for an hour at DisneyWorld, to the effect of waiting weeks for care at a Veterans hospital.

No, he still didn't. Jim, if Buck and I agree on an issue that's a good sign to give up.

[Slipknot]

http://theantimedia.org/va-veteran-s...ied-treatment/

I guess you would be lucky to be seen in Providence or Boston, but this poor guy in New York was not treated well at all. This should never happen.
Sad story, extremely sad

RIP soldier, thank you for your service

[wdmso]

Originally Posted by Slipknot

http://theantimedia.org/va-veteran-s...ied-treatment/

I guess you would be lucky to be seen in Providence or Boston, but this poor guy in New York was not treated well at all. This should never happen.
Sad story, extremely sad

RIP soldier, thank you for your service

the highest suicide rate (19.3) was among people 85 years or older. The second highest rate (19.2) occurred in those between 45 and 64 years of age. He had a gun and a plan .. to blame the VA is a cop out

[Slipknot]

Originally Posted by wdmso

the highest suicide rate (19.3) was among people 85 years or older. The second highest rate (19.2) occurred in those between 45 and 64 years of age. He had a gun and a plan .. to blame the VA is a cop out

yes if you blame the VA, it is a cop out I agree
there is plenty of blame to go around if you look for blame.

I'm saying it should not happen
there is a cause and effect there

we need to take better care for our vets

prisoners have better health and dental than even the guards at some prisons, there is real disconnect.

[wdmso]

Originally Posted by Slipknot

yes if you blame the VA, it is a cop out I agree
there is plenty of blame to go around if you look for blame.

I'm saying it should not happen
there is a cause and effect there

we need to take better care for our vets

prisoners have better health and dental than even the guards at some prisons, there is real disconnect.

Veterans are being better treated than at any time in our history .. in all areas health care, and other services and how the public views their service are all great , But with any group there are always a small but vocal group use the veteran title as an excuse or get out of jail free card for bad behavior or as a political football

the public really has no Idea how the VA works.. Just because you do 4yrs does not give you a lifetime of free medical care it gets you Basic Eligibility or Enhanced Eligibility

My father was a LT in the Navy retired 25 years he could use the base medical until he was 65 then got bounced to the VA or Medi Care (nam era Vet)

I retired 23 years as an E-7 if I had not been injured in Iraq (IED) I would have only had limited VA Services i think 180 days from discharge but with the injury I have Enhanced Eligibility.. so i use the VA for those issues and Have no complaints and my normal healthcare for everything else

its not a perfect system nor is it the nightmare some would have you think it is ... I guess like anything else some VA experiences are not the same for everyone