The million crybaby march is underway...

[Jim in CT]

http://news.yahoo.com/students-acros...110404606.html

College students: I want everyone at the school to make $15 an hour. And I don't want to have to pay a cent for my college education. And I want all existing student loan debt to be forgiven as of now.

Yikes...

Sounds like they'll all be voting for Bernie.

[Nebe]

I've been listening to a lot of Merel Haggard lately. He's got some good tunes about being an independent man and about working hard to make a living.
Why can't we find some sort of middle ground ? Yes the cost of living has gone up a lot. Yes wages should rise with cost of living.
Student loan debt should not be forgiven but info think interest rates should be looked at.
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[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by Nebe

I've been listening to a lot of Merel Haggard lately. He's got some good tunes about being an independent man and about working hard to make a living.
Why can't we find some sort of middle ground ? Yes the cost of living has gone up a lot. Yes wages should rise with cost of living.
Student loan debt should not be forgiven but info think interest rates should be looked at.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

Agreed.

How about making the professors work a 40 hour week? I am friends with someone who teaches Sociology at Wesleyan University in CT (we disagree on EVERYTHING). He told me that if he adds up the time he spends preparing lectures, time in class, office hours, and time grading papers, he said it adds up to about 900 hours a year. That's insane.

Also, I was an engineering major, then a math major. Probably a third of the classes I took were the bullsh*t classes like writing, history, sociology, etc. Liberal arts folks will say you "need" those classes to be a better engineer. I reject that, I don't concede I was smarter after taking those classes. If we let kids (at least those with technical majors) take more classes relevent to their major, and fewer liberal arts requirements, kids could graduate in 3 years instead of 4. The liberal arts folks, 99% of whom are liberals, go berserk every time I mention this, because they want guaranteed job security, even though they aren't adding value (IMHO).

There are many things we could do to make it cheaper. Most of those ideas will be rejected by the liberals in academia, because many of the proposals will hit them in the wallet.

[spence]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

Agreed.

How about making the professors work a 40 hour week? I am friends with someone who teaches Sociology at Wesleyan University in CT (we disagree on EVERYTHING). He told me that if he adds up the time he spends preparing lectures, time in class, office hours, and time grading papers, he said it adds up to about 900 hours a year. That's insane.

Also, I was an engineering major, then a math major. Probably a third of the classes I took were the bullsh*t classes like writing, history, sociology, etc. Liberal arts folks will say you "need" those classes to be a better engineer. I reject that, I don't concede I was smarter after taking those classes. If we let kids (at least those with technical majors) take more classes relevent to their major, and fewer liberal arts requirements, kids could graduate in 3 years instead of 4. The liberal arts folks, 99% of whom are liberals, go berserk every time I mention this, because they want guaranteed job security, even though they aren't adding value (IMHO).

There are many things we could do to make it cheaper. Most of those ideas will be rejected by the liberals in academia, because many of the proposals will hit them in the wallet.

I think I now understand you.

[Nebe]

yoh know. All those classes that you think are useless teach you to be a well rounded free thinking person capable of knowing lots of things about all sorts of stuff !
I bet all those Bernie Sanders voters took em
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[buckman]

Originally Posted by Nebe

yoh know. All those classes that you think are useless teach you to be a well rounded free thinking person capable of knowing lots of things about all sorts of stuff !
I bet all those Bernie Sanders voters took em
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I bet you are right .
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[spence]

Originally Posted by Nebe

yoh know. All those classes that you think are useless teach you to be a well rounded free thinking person capable of knowing lots of things about all sorts of stuff !
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Wait, a "liberal arts" education isn't designed to turn you into a radical left wing liberal?

This is news.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by Nebe

yoh know. All those classes that you think are useless teach you to be a well rounded free thinking person capable of knowing lots of things about all sorts of stuff !
I bet all those Bernie Sanders voters took em
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"All those classes that you think are useless teach you to be a well rounded free thinking person "

That's what the liberal arts professors want you to think. I reject that. I went to an awesome Catholic high school, I knew how to write, and think logically, long before I got to college. Maybe at the most prestigious schools do you get a lot out of those classes. At UCONN, I regurgitated their lectures back to them to get good grades. 99% of what I learned in those classes, was of no value whatsoever. I also took classes at Southern CT State University (not a great school) and Tufts in Mass (a terrific school). The liberal arts classes did absolutely nothing except eat up valuable time and tuition money.

If we want to cut costs significantly, these are the things we need to consider.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by spence

I think I now understand you.

That makes one of us, because I don't understand why you csan't answer a simple question. I guess all that liberal arts stuff didn't teach you how to debate openly.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by spence

Wait, a "liberal arts" education isn't designed to turn you into a radical left wing liberal?

This is news.

In reality, that's precisely what's it's designed to do. Which you would concede, if you could honestly opine on the insanity taking place at colleges right now. I'm not sure that most of what goes on at college isn't intellectually subtractive.

[Sea Dangles]

My guess is that there will not be a lot of free thinking going on in Jims house. I can picture it now as he tells his children and wife to try and make that wrong.
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[RIROCKHOUND]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

"All those classes that you think are useless teach you to be a well rounded free thinking person "

That's what the liberal arts professors want you to think. I reject that. I went to an awesome Catholic high school, I knew how to write, and think logically, long before I got to college. Maybe at the most prestigious schools do you get a lot out of those classes. At UCONN, I regurgitated their lectures back to them to get good grades. 99% of what I learned in those classes, was of no value whatsoever. I also took classes at Southern CT State University (not a great school) and Tufts in Mass (a terrific school). The liberal arts classes did absolutely nothing except eat up valuable time and tuition money.
If we want to cut costs significantly, these are the things we need to consider.

Easy answer. Send your kids to RPI, WPI etc., they will be great engineers. OR to school in Taiwan.

But bash away on liberal arts. There are a number of studies (two are below) that show that broad based liberal arts students, are very desirable in the job market. They ability to think, brainstorm and problem solve (beyond engineering calculations) tend to do well training managers, not just drones. Not well articulated in these two, but others I have read, is that the benefit is higher for liberal arts students in a STEM field (which is what I happen to do).

http://www.usnews.com/news/college-o...-employers-say

https://www.aacu.org/press/press-rel...ates-long-term

And as a prof, your friend clearly does the bear minimum and is lucky to survive. Between teaching and research, I average over 50hr a week, including summers and breaks. Maybe it is different in the sciences where we right proposals, generate data and publish.

[Nebe]

When you blow off liberal arts classes and only focus on what ever you are majoring in at college you believe really stupid sheet like the thought that the pyramids were built to store grain.

End of discussion.
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[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by RIROCKHOUND

Easy answer. Send your kids to RPI, WPI etc., they will be great engineers. OR to school in Taiwan.

But bash away on liberal arts. There are a number of studies (two are below) that show that broad based liberal arts students, are very desirable in the job market. They ability to think, brainstorm and problem solve (beyond engineering calculations) tend to do well training managers, not just drones. Not well articulated in these two, but others I have read, is that the benefit is higher for liberal arts students in a STEM field (which is what I happen to do).

http://www.usnews.com/news/college-o...-employers-say

https://www.aacu.org/press/press-rel...ates-long-term

And as a prof, your friend clearly does the bear minimum and is lucky to survive. Between teaching and research, I average over 50hr a week, including summers and breaks. Maybe it is different in the sciences where we right proposals, generate data and publish.

"bash away on liberal arts"

Do you follow the news? Students at Mizzou demand that the president renounce his "white male priviledge". These kids want college to be "free", and they want all existing student loan debt wiped out. Abu Mumia Jamal gets welcomed with open arms to speak at colleges, but Condaleeza Rice isn't welcome. Spence cannot answer when I ask him why Hilary's lies don't make her a liar. That's thinking logically? Sorry, I don't see it.

Is every liberal arts major wasting his time? Of course not.

Is it fair to demand that every engineering and accounting major extend college by 3 semesters, and go tens of thousands of dollars deeper into debt, and get forced to take this crap? Maybe not.

"They ability to think"

Right, kids in these classes are taught to think for themselves, as opposed to simply regurgitating whatever the professor says. In my experience, these liberal academics just love getting challenged on their beliefs. Like that media professor at Missouri who tried to have a student manhandled away from the protest. I'm sure she gives equally good grades to conservative students and liberal students, no question. Half the regular guests at MSNBC are college professors, I am sure they welcome opposing points of view with an open mind.

Make it optional. If a science major wants to take these things (and go deeper into debt as a result) let him. If he just wants to take classes pertinent to his major, let him do that. Isn't that "choice"? I thought liberals were in favor of "choice". I know I heard that somewhere.

"not just drones"

OK, so everyone who doesn't take these classes and fawn all over their professors, is "just a drone". How very tolerant.

You want to make college significantly cheaper? That's a way to do it. You can also learn history, philosophy, critical thinking, by reading on your own.

"your friend clearly does the bear minimum " How the hell would you know that? He's very highly regarded on campus. The fact is, and it's a secret those in academia guard very closely, is that it's just not demanding. He teaches no more than 3 classes a semester. He has told me he does everything he can think of doing, and he can't get it to work out to 1,000 hours a year. I am certain he works harder than most of his colleagues, his students would certainly say so. He's just honest. I'm sorry if you don't like that. That you don't like it, doesn't make it false.

If a group of professors can't bring themselves to say out loud "boys should go to the boys' bathroom", then just perhaps, they don't have as much to teach as they think they do.

It's awfully presumptuous to assume that everyone is better off taking these classes. Even if they are better off, is it worth going that much deeper into debt? Why not leave that up to the consumer...the student? Why does that stuff have to be mandatory? Again, what's wrong with "choice"?

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by Nebe

When you blow off liberal arts classes and only focus on what ever you are majoring in at college you believe really stupid sheet like the thought that the pyramids were built to store grain.

End of discussion.
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Oh. So one guy says something you think is stupid, and that proves your point? I have news for you. Carson went to Yale, which means he took all kinds of liberal arts classes, and he got good grades. So if you think Carson is an idiot, those courses didn't do him any good, did they?

You actually supported my argument, instead of refuting it.

[Nebe]

I think anyone is an idiot who disregards science if it clashes with their religious beliefs.
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[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by Nebe

I think anyone is an idiot who disregards science if it clashes with their religious beliefs.
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If it bothers you when people disregard science, you should be in favor of my idea to let these kids take more science! Again, you are proving my point, not refuting it.

[RIROCKHOUND]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

"bash away on liberal arts"

Do you follow the news? Students at Mizzou demand that the president renounce his "white male priviledge". These kids want college to be "free", and they want all existing student loan debt wiped out. Abu Mumia Jamal gets welcomed with open arms to speak at colleges, but Condaleeza Rice isn't welcomegets mobbed off the stage. Spence cannot answer when I ask him why Hilary's lies don't make her a liar. That's thinking logically? Sorry, I don't see it.

Is every liberal arts major wasting his time? Of course not.

Is it fair to demand that every engineering and accounting major extend college by 3 semesters, and go tens of thousands of dollars deeper into debt, and get forced to take this crap? Maybe not.

"They ability to think"

Right, kids in these classes are taught to think for themselves, as opposed to simply regurgitating whatever the professor says. In my experience, these liberal academics just love getting challenged on their beliefs. Like that media professor at Missouri who tried to have a student manhandled away from the protest. I'm sure she gives equally good grades to conservative students and liberal students, no question. Half the regular guests at MSNBC are college professors, I am sure they welcome opposing points of view with an open mind.

Make it optional. If a science major wants to take these things (and go deeper into debt as a result) let him. If he just wants to take classes pertinent to his major, let him do that. Isn't that "choice"? I thought liberals were in favor of "choice". I know I heard that somewhere.

"not just drones"

OK, so everyone who doesn't take these classes and fawn all over their professors, is "just a drone". How very tolerant.

You want to make college significantly cheaper? That's a way to do it. You can also learn history, philosophy, critical thinking, by reading on your own.

Jim;
I showed you two studies where these backgrounds are very successful. It sounds like your biggest gripe is you were forced to take these classes you felt were useless. There is a reason many Asian countries, who were kicking US students asses on math and engineering are bringing back in more of the writing, history etc..

Drones was the wrong word. I know many articulate, bright engineers. I also have worked closely with some that couldn't work beyond an equation on a page.

FYI: This is right from the student outcomes engineering section of ABET (Accreditation Board for Engineering and Technology, Inc.).

General Criterion 3. Student Outcomes

The program must have documented student outcomes that prepare graduates to attain the program educational objectives.

Student outcomes are outcomes (a) through (k) plus any additional outcomes that may be articulated by the program.

(a) an ability to apply knowledge of mathematics, science, and engineering

(b) an ability to design and conduct experiments, as well as to analyze and interpret data

(c) an ability to design a system, component, or process to meet desired needs within realistic constraints such as economic, environmental, social, political, ethical, health and safety, manufacturability, and sustainability

(d) an ability to function on multidisciplinary teams

(e) an ability to identify, formulate, and solve engineering problems

(f) an understanding of professional and ethical responsibility

(g) an ability to communicate effectively

(h) the broad education necessary to understand the impact of engineering solutions in a global, economic, environmental, and societal context

(i) a recognition of the need for, and an ability to engage in life-long learning

(j) a knowledge of contemporary issues

(k) an ability to use the techniques, skills, and modern engineering tools necessary for engineering practice.



Go to RPI or WPI; they still require 4 years. Or go to a technical school. Trades remain in demand, and I think highly of those that choose that path if it is right for them.

I'm all for making college cheaper. Some of my best students cranked through a community college to finish a degree at a four year school. I graduated a state school, worked my ass off, and work at a different state school. I don't think academia should be ivory towers. I also know most students won't go learn history, philosophy etc. on their own. Add to that, many students don't know their path, and find it by being exposed to a variety of disciplines.

As far as your friend, good for him. I look around where I work and I don't see anyone putting in less than 40 legit hours/week.

[RIROCKHOUND]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

If it bothers you when people disregard science, you should be in favor of my idea to let these kids take more science! Again, you are proving my point, not refuting it.

So, at Wesleyan, there is a 3 year option. http://www.wesleyan.edu/academics/curriculum/3year.html. All students are also required to take science and math classes.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by RIROCKHOUND

Maybe it is different in the sciences where we right proposals, generate data and publish.

I have taught actuarial science classes at UCONN, and Univ of Hartford. I could EASILY teach 3 a semester, and it wouldn't take me 30 hours a week, not even close. But math is probably one of the less time-consuming things to teach.

Maybe science is different.

I also don't think it's always fair that students pay for professors to do research and publish (science may be different). If you want to do research, find someone to pay you to do that. I don't think many students pick their college based on the articles published by employed faculty. Again, let the consumer, the student, make the choice. If he wants to take a particular class taught by an unknown graduate student, let him choose that and save money. If he wants to take out loans up to his eyeballs to take a class taught by a big lasagna in that field, let him choose that and live with the debt. if doing research makes you that much of a better teacher, the laws of supply and demand suggest that enough students will want to pay your premium. Personally, I don't think that's usually the case. Again, science may be different.

I think a lot of it is a scam, carefully orchestrated by the academics to live quite comfortably for doing not much teaching. I don't think I ever had a professor who taught more than 3 classes a semester. High school teachers teach all day, non stop.

Liz Warren, aka Apache Chief, complains tirelessly about how expensive college is, and how unfair it is to the kids. This is the same jerk who made 400k a year teaching at Harvard. If she really wants to make college affordable, she can take a huge paycut.

You fix a problem by addressing the primary cause of the problem. No one denies that college is too expensive. Where do colleges spend most of their money? I assume it's salary and payroll. Therefore, my critical thinking skills tell me, that's where the problem lies, and therefore where we can make the biggest dent in college costs.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by RIROCKHOUND

Jim;
I showed you two studies where these backgrounds are very successful. It sounds like your biggest gripe is you were forced to take these classes you felt were useless. There is a reason many Asian countries, who were kicking US students asses on math and engineering are bringing back in more of the writing, history etc..

Drones was the wrong word. I know many articulate, bright engineers. I also have worked closely with some that couldn't work beyond an equation on a page.

FYI: This is right from the student outcomes engineering section of ABET (Accreditation Board for Engineering and Technology, Inc.).

General Criterion 3. Student Outcomes

The program must have documented student outcomes that prepare graduates to attain the program educational objectives.

Student outcomes are outcomes (a) through (k) plus any additional outcomes that may be articulated by the program.

(a) an ability to apply knowledge of mathematics, science, and engineering

(b) an ability to design and conduct experiments, as well as to analyze and interpret data

(c) an ability to design a system, component, or process to meet desired needs within realistic constraints such as economic, environmental, social, political, ethical, health and safety, manufacturability, and sustainability

(d) an ability to function on multidisciplinary teams

(e) an ability to identify, formulate, and solve engineering problems

(f) an understanding of professional and ethical responsibility

(g) an ability to communicate effectively

(h) the broad education necessary to understand the impact of engineering solutions in a global, economic, environmental, and societal context

(i) a recognition of the need for, and an ability to engage in life-long learning

(j) a knowledge of contemporary issues

(k) an ability to use the techniques, skills, and modern engineering tools necessary for engineering practice.



Go to RPI or WPI; they still require 4 years. Or go to a technical school. Trades remain in demand, and I think highly of those that choose that path if it is right for them.

I'm all for making college cheaper. Some of my best students cranked through a community college to finish a degree at a four year school. I graduated a state school, worked my ass off, and work at a different state school. I don't think academia should be ivory towers. I also know most students won't go learn history, philosophy etc. on their own. Add to that, many students don't know their path, and find it by being exposed to a variety of disciplines.

As far as your friend, good for him. I look around where I work and I don't see anyone putting in less than 40 legit hours/week.

"It sounds like your biggest gripe is you were forced to take these classes you felt were useless"

I'm out of school, my loans are paid off, it's not my gripe. I am trying to think about the welfare of the next generation. No skin off my nose.

"I also have worked closely with some that couldn't work beyond an equation on a page"

You'd be hard-pressed to find an occupation with more one-dimensional nerds than my field, actuarial science. I just don't think the answer is necessarily more liberal arts courses. Especially when we need to figure out ways to lower costs.

What's wrong with making it optional?

Bryan, look at the Yale kids, going berserk because a college professor was honest enough to tell them that they need to accept the fact that in life. sometimes they will get offended. And they couldn't deal with hearing that, so they are engaging in anarchy. I challenge the assumption that everyone is necessarily better off being exposed to whoever is teaching these kids to think this way.

[Nebe]

you should see what goes on at an art school Jim.
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[scottw]

great article for the militant atheist

http://www.nationalreview.com/articl...ience-religion

the problem with, or the beauty of.... science, religion and politics is that they all contain within and across, competing thoughts... the beauty is the product that can be the result of competing thought ..the problem is the sense of superiority that a little "knowledge" can give an individual or group turning them into dishonest closed minded militants that become tools of destruction rather than instruments of good...we see this in politics..in religion... and science...and on American College campuses currently ...

"Here’s the problem with all these false dichotomies: At bottom, they come from, and reinforce, illiteracy. And while sophisticates can, and too often do, produce their own exquisite forms of barbarism, widespread illiteracy probably inexorably leads to barbarism. A scientist who doesn’t understand anything about epistemology, or religion, or philosophy, and gets on his soapbox is a joke. A scientist who does all these things and as a result is on best-seller lists and gets published in The New Yorker is a symptom of a serious social disease. Never mind the science-versus-religion “debate,” such as it is — widespread confusion about science’s epistemological framework is producing a lot of shoddy science, and that should have us all concerned."

[spence]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

In reality, that's precisely what's it's designed to do. Which you would concede, if you could honestly opine on the insanity taking place at colleges right now. I'm not sure that most of what goes on at college isn't intellectually subtractive.

I'm not sure you understand what liberal arts means.
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[scottw]

Originally Posted by spence

I'm not sure you understand what liberal arts means.
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if the meaning of the term "liberal" has evolved in education as it has in politics then it would mean "marxist arts"

[Fishpart]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

In reality, that's precisely what's it's designed to do. Which you would concede, if you could honestly opine on the insanity taking place at colleges right now. I'm not sure that most of what goes on at college isn't intellectually subtractive.

The new liberal norm isn't debate but to silence those who disagree with you.

I have a tecnical degree from Northeastern in the 80's. I had to take very few liberal arts courses back then and I looked at them as easy gpa boosters because of the regurgitate the lecture method.

The classes gave a good foundation because 20+ years later in a technical job 80% of it is soft skills.
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[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by spence

I'm not sure you understand what liberal arts means.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

You know what? I have asked you a simple question 20 times on this forum, and you won't answer. Because you can't. So go ahead, and tell me what "liberal arts" means, and the value it adds.

[Jim in CT]

I agree 100% that everyone benefits from being taught how to solve problems, to think critically, and to communicate effectively.

I categorigally reject the notion that kids routinely acquire these skills, by being forced to take liberal arts courses at college. If someone designed an undergraduate class to teach these exact skills, it would be a great class. That's not what gets taught.

Proof? The link in my first post. College kids want college to be free, and at the same time, they want minimum wage on campus increased to $15. Now, by what logic can you make something "free", by increasing its fixed cost?

Look at what happened at Yale this week. A professor had the chutzpah to tell his students that the right to free speech gives others the right to express themselves in a way that they may find offensive. That's undeniably true. How did the students react? They went berserk, because they have never been taught how to deal with challenges to what they believe.

Look at guest speakers invited to prestigious schools. Abu Mumia Jamal and Bill Ayers are welcome guests. If Ann Coulter or even Condaleeza Rice is invited to speak, everyone goes berserk.

I could not invent better evidence of the lack of thought that takes place, then exactly what's happening on college campuses this week.

[Nebe]

Ann coulter? Good lord tell me you are not a fan of that evil hate filled #^&#^&#^&#^&.
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[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by Nebe

Ann coulter? Good lord tell me you are not a fan of that evil hate filled #^&#^&#^&#^&.
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I agree with her on most issues, I don't like her offensive style.

But a true liberal thinker should be willing to debate her, rather than silence her. College students, and their professors. for the most part, don't want her on campus. Because they don't want to be challenged, because all they know how to do is insult those with whom they disagree, not debate them.

Is she more evil than Abu Mumia Jamal or Bill Ayers? How many cops has she killed, how many bombs has she planted?