The million crybaby march is underway...

[Nebe]

I agree. You shouldn't silence her by turning her away.
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[PaulS]

Welders make more than Philosophers.

[buckman]

Originally Posted by PaulS

Welders make more than Philosophers.

Unless the philosopher happens to be a professor
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[RIROCKHOUND]

Originally Posted by buckman

Unless the philosopher happens to be a professor
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

Depends on where you work too...
We don't all make 400K!

There is a market Jim.
Want to go to a religious based school, they exist. Jesuit, go to BC. Fundamentalist, go to Liberty; they have an entire creationist center. I know, I went to grad school with a prof there.

Want to go to a school where there is zero research being done by the faculty? Go to a community college or a for-profit (Univ of Phoenix et al). Pay by the course. The job market and employers set the value on those degrees vs a more traditional four-year degree.

ABET is a not for profit accreditation program for engineers, even they think you need more than just your 'major' classes.

Last, in the sciences we largely do fund our own research externally. This research allows us to advance our sciences, train students in research and hopefully in the prepare the next generation. Add to that service internally helping the university and externally, doing outreach and community education adds hours for me as well.

Teaching vs. research load varies by the school. At an R-I university (research-I) school, the profs teach less and research more. At and R-II or R-III the balance swings the other way. Again, the market place is there, defined and easily interpreted by parents and incoming students. Is college too expensive? Yes, and I would like to see it cheaper (not free) but students do have options. No one is forcing you to go to Conn College.

As far as what happened the last week? This crap happens every decade; boomers parents lamented the 1960's college experience; they lamented their kids experiences and actions in the 1980's.

[PaulS]

I heard the crybabies are going to not participate and shut things down if they don't get their way!

[Nebe]

Originally Posted by PaulS

Welders make more than Philosophers.

philosophical welders make even more!
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[Raven]

Originally Posted by Nebe

Ann coulter? Good lord tell me you are not a fan of that evil hate filled #^&#^&#^&#^&.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

she's a blonde witch - easily boils your BLOOD

and i firmly Agree .... you have to be a total
free thinker to POST at S-B

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by RIROCKHOUND

Depends on where you work too...
We don't all make 400K!

There is a market Jim.
Want to go to a religious based school, they exist. Jesuit, go to BC. Fundamentalist, go to Liberty; they have an entire creationist center. I know, I went to grad school with a prof there.

Want to go to a school where there is zero research being done by the faculty? Go to a community college or a for-profit (Univ of Phoenix et al). Pay by the course. The job market and employers set the value on those degrees vs a more traditional four-year degree.

ABET is a not for profit accreditation program for engineers, even they think you need more than just your 'major' classes.

Last, in the sciences we largely do fund our own research externally. This research allows us to advance our sciences, train students in research and hopefully in the prepare the next generation. Add to that service internally helping the university and externally, doing outreach and community education adds hours for me as well.

Teaching vs. research load varies by the school. At an R-I university (research-I) school, the profs teach less and research more. At and R-II or R-III the balance swings the other way. Again, the market place is there, defined and easily interpreted by parents and incoming students. Is college too expensive? Yes, and I would like to see it cheaper (not free) but students do have options. No one is forcing you to go to Conn College.

As far as what happened the last week? This crap happens every decade; boomers parents lamented the 1960's college experience; they lamented their kids experiences and actions in the 1980's.

"There is a market Jim. "

Not at public schools. UCONN is the flagship public school in CT. If I want to go there, and het a degree in engineering or accounting, I need to take a couple semesters' worth of liberal stuff. If we want to make college less expensive, one way to do it, would be to offer kids the choice to eliminate that other stuff. Again, liberals sure like to identify themselves as pro-choice, so I can't fathom why they'd have any issue with that. It would also make college much more affordable. I would argue that in the vast majority of cases, the kids aren't missing out on much. That's based on my experience as a student, my experience as a teacher, and my exoerience hiring a large number of recent college grads over the years, and my observations of my brother and my friend who are full-time college professors. And my observations of the way these kids act when their hard-core liberal beliefs are challenged in any way.

If UCONN offered such a degree, I would bet my life that the accounbting majors who took the expedited track, would be just as in demand as those whochose to take the liberal stuff.

Yoiu are saying that if kids just want to take courses relevent to their profession, they are releggated to community colleges and for-profits. Why pidgeon-hole these kids that way? Don't you want these kids to have good opportunities?

Liberals claim to care about choice, claim to care bout helping the poor. Yet if a poor kid wants to go to UCONN to stuy engineeriung, but he can't afford all the extra stuff, you'd relegate him to a sub-par school. Is that consistent with the liberal ideology? I don't think so.

It's win-win. It increases choice, and drives down costs, both stated goals of the left.

"This crap happens every decade"

Right. It happens all the time. And who are the ones engaging in anarchy? Did the young Republicans clubs at colleges, go crazy when OJ was acquitted? Nope. It's almost always the liberals. Because that's what they learn - when someone challenges your beliefs, they are a hatemonger, so treat them as such. That proves my point, which is that there's little real-life value to that Marxist garbage. It's all a scam. Professors like money, so they cram the required agenda with useless crap that guarantees job security. And also completely fails to prepare these kids for real life.

[RIROCKHOUND]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

Liberals claim to care about choice, claim to care bout helping the poor. Yet if a poor kid wants to go to UCONN to stuy engineeriung, but he can't afford all the extra stuff, you'd relegate him to a sub-par school.

It has nothing to do with relegating them. It has to do with meeting national requirements for degrees.

Then WHY THE #^&#^&#^&#^& does ABET, who is responsible for accrediting engineering programs not accredit programs where there is no 'extra stuff'

I looked at UCONN, for Mech Engineering, I count 5 "Extra" classes labeled as Gen Ed (I am not counting a basic writing course as 'extra')

For a full-time student, there is not much difference financially for full-time (12-18 credits/semester), so this is less than 1 course a semester 'extra'. For Part-time, there is a difference in cost per-course, however, the English majors forced to take my Earth Science classes probably feel the same way, but I damn sure think they should take some science and math!

For UCONN Accounting, why don't they offer an expedited Accounting major, you think it is just a big scam? It isn't to fulfill the requirements for the national board for accrediting a degree. This isn't about denying choice.
I counted 7 "Extra" classes for accounting, and I suspect you can double dip categories and requirements to get this to 4 or 5.

"We were the first accounting program in New England to receive separate national accreditation by AACSB International, the premier accrediting agency for Bachelor’s, Master’s and doctoral degree programs in business administration and accounting."
http://accounting.business.uconn.edu/#


This is all based on MY experience as a professor. It isn't a perfect system but what you describe is a step backwards, NOT forward.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by RIROCKHOUND

It has nothing to do with relegating them. It has to do with meeting national requirements for degrees.

Then WHY THE #^&#^&#^&#^& does ABET, who is responsible for accrediting engineering programs not accredit programs where there is no 'extra stuff'

I looked at UCONN, for Mech Engineering, I count 5 "Extra" classes labeled as Gen Ed (I am not counting a basic writing course as 'extra')

For a full-time student, there is not much difference financially for full-time (12-18 credits/semester), so this is less than 1 course a semester 'extra'. For Part-time, there is a difference in cost per-course, however, the English majors forced to take my Earth Science classes probably feel the same way, but I damn sure think they should take some science and math!

For UCONN Accounting, why don't they offer an expedited Accounting major, you think it is just a big scam? It isn't to fulfill the requirements for the national board for accrediting a degree. This isn't about denying choice.
I counted 7 "Extra" classes for accounting, and I suspect you can double dip categories and requirements to get this to 4 or 5.

"We were the first accounting program in New England to receive separate national accreditation by AACSB International, the premier accrediting agency for Bachelor’s, Master’s and doctoral degree programs in business administration and accounting."
http://accounting.business.uconn.edu/#


This is all based on MY experience as a professor. It isn't a perfect system but what you describe is a step backwards, NOT forward.

"It has to do with meeting national requirements for degrees."

Who sets the national requirements that do get a debgree in electrical engineering, I need to take history or literature? Those aren't set by the school? I'm guessing those national requirements are set by academics, who want to stay employed and comfortable.

"WHY THE #^&#^&#^&#^& does ABET, who is responsible for accrediting engineering programs not accredit programs where there is no 'extra stuff'"

I don't know the answer to that. In my profession, to be a credentialed actuary, you need to pass brutal exams. You don't have to explain what the relationship between Ahab and Moby #^&#^&#^&#^& is a metaphor for. I'm not sure that knowledge would make me a better engineer, either.

"why don't they offer an expedited Accounting major"

because if they did, every student who isn't rich would choose that track, and then they'd need to let go some liberal arts professors.

"I looked at UCONN, for Mech Engineering, I count 5 "Extra" classes labeled as Gen Ed (I am not counting a basic writing course as 'extra')"

It was a lot more than 5 when I was there. In any event, that's a semester. At least $10k. Plus 6 months earlier that one could enter the workforce. What's average starting salary for a UCONN mechanical engineer? $50k? So if you graduate a semester earlier, you save $10k by not paying the school, and you earn an additional $25k by starting work 6 months earlier. So the total opportunity cost of those 5 classes is $35k. And that's if there are only 5.

"I damn sure think they should take some science and math!"

So do I.

"It isn't a perfect system"

It's pretty close to perfect for the people who get cushy jobs, making a good salary, lots of time off, with insane benefits (their children typically don't pay tuition at the schools the teach at).

Bryan, if we want to make college more affordable, you have to start with the biggest expenditures. That's not my idea, that's called math. You won't make college cheaper by recycling paper or by using pencils more efficiently or by switching to LED lightbulbs and low-flow toilets in the dorms.

[RIROCKHOUND]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

It was a lot more than 5 when I was there.

"I damn sure think they should take some science and math!"

So do I.

Bryan, if we want to make college more affordable, you have to start with the biggest expenditures. That's not my idea, that's called math. You won't make college cheaper by recycling paper or by using pencils more efficiently or by switching to LED lightbulbs and low-flow toilets in the dorms.

So you think the English majors should be forced to take Science and Math classes, but not the other way around for Accounting or Engineering to take some other 'extra' courses?

Were you an older student or a traditional student out of high-school?

p.s. you save A LOT of money by doing all that by the way... particularly the lighting/electrical aspects...

[RIROCKHOUND]

I just went and looked, b/c I was curious.
At RPI, the engineering program requires 6 humanities/social sciences gen eds. I don't think that they are setting this up to be the great liberal bastion of engineering...

"Academics
Our mission is to educate leaders of tomorrow for technology-based careers; to celebrate discovery, and the responsible application of technology; to create knowledge and global prosperity.

Have a solid foundation in mathematics, science, and engineering, and be able to apply these to practical use.
Be able to identify, model, analyze, and solve challenging real world problems.
Have specialized technical knowledge in their chosen field.
Have strong communication skills with emphasis on technical writing and interpersonal communication.
Be able to design innovative products, processes or systems.

Perform effectively on diverse, multidisciplinary teams, both as leader and contributor.
Be informed citizens broadly educated in the humanities and social sciences.
Be prepared to practice engineering in a socially responsible and ethical manner.
Have learned in a creative, stimulating environment that prepares and motivates them to continue to grow and learn."
http://eng.rpi.edu/

[Jimbo]

I'm sorta getting negative vibes about your opinions of people who pursued Liberal Arts degrees. Why would you think we're any different than someone who pursues and engineering or science degree and has no use for mandatory core classes? I pursued a degree in English, couldn't stand math and had no use for chemistry or physics. But I lucked out. Because of a special deal my freshman year I could waive math and pursue advanced courses in Spanish. Chemistry was a waste of time because it was easier than the high school course I took, and "Rocks for Jocks", the geology course I took had tons of field trips and a hot professor, easy "A's". But if I had my choice I probably would have skipped them, as well as Economics and Psychology, for which I've also had no use since college. But in the end I'm glad I muscled through them. Maybe in some small way I have used them and just don't realize it, because those core classes are intended to make us more well rounded, which may not be an entirely measureable trait.
OK, I'm ready for it, gimme the, "That's just what a Liberal Arts major would say."

[RIROCKHOUND]

Originally Posted by Jimbo

I'm sorta getting negative vibes about your opinions of people who pursued Liberal Arts degrees. Why would you think we're any different than someone who pursues and engineering or science degree and has no use for mandatory core classes? I pursued a degree in English, couldn't stand math and had no use for chemistry or physics. But I lucked out. Because of a special deal my freshman year I could waive math and pursue advanced courses in Spanish. Chemistry was a waste of time because it was easier than the high school course I took, and "Rocks for Jocks", the geology course I took had tons of field trips and a hot professor, easy "A's". But if I had my choice I probably would have skipped them, as well as Economics and Psychology, for which I've also had no use since college. But in the end I'm glad I muscled through them. Maybe in some small way I have used them and just don't realize it, because those core classes are intended to make us more well rounded, which may not be an entirely measurable trait.
OK, I'm ready for it, gimme the, "That's just what a Liberal Arts major would say."

Hi Jimbo;
Remind me what your career was in? How did your background help your work?

[FishermanTim]

Many colleges today are grooming the next generation of "sheep" who were "sheep-dogged" by some of the worst academic leaders to date.
When the primary character of many grads is "entitlement" and "MY beliefs", it's not a shock when they are confronted by a logical intelligent argument that they "protest" that they're rights are being violated.

All they show me (like the morons driving daddy's BMW, AUDI or LEXUS) is that they are too stupid to know they threw away good money on a wasted "education".

[Nebe]

I can guarantee you one thing.
Not sure how to prove this theory but I would guess that Bernie Sandars has a much higher ratio of college educated free thinking types vs while trump has the same ratio, but it's GED VS high school diploma.
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[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by RIROCKHOUND

So you think the English majors should be forced to take Science and Math classes, but not the other way around for Accounting or Engineering to take some other 'extra' courses?

Were you an older student or a traditional student out of high-school?

p.s. you save A LOT of money by doing all that by the way... particularly the lighting/electrical aspects...

"So you think the English majors should be forced to take Science and Math classes"

I said I think they should take science and math. I'm not in favor of forcing them. That would just be my suggestion.

"Were you an older student or a traditional student out of high-school?"

Traditional. But I was smart enough to know that I was getting scammed. My father was also an electrical engineer, and made it clear that I would learn little in the liberal arts courses that I would ever need. He was absolutely, 100% correct.

"you save A LOT of money by doing all that by the way... particularly the lighting/electrical aspects"

I doubt that.

These kids want to make college cheaper. You can't do that, without cutting expenditures. And I have to believe that the #1 discretionary expenditure, by far, is payroll. Therefore, if you ignore payroll, you can't make a huge dent in the cost. You just can't. You solve a problem by addressing the underlying cause, not what you wish the underlying cause to be. I learned that in science classes.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by Nebe

I can guarantee you one thing.
Not sure how to prove this theory but I would guess that Bernie Sandars has a much higher ratio of college educated free thinking types vs while trump has the same ratio, but it's GED VS high school diploma.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

"Sandars has a much higher ratio of college educated free thinking types "

You may be right. And the reason, is that academia is radically liberal. If the people who teach those classes tell their students "you should demand that college be free, and at the same time, we all want raises", then they aren't helping those kids, and the kids are wasting time and money.

[spence]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

My father was also an electrical engineer, and made it clear that I would learn little in the liberal arts courses that I would ever need. He was absolutely, 100% correct.

This is revealing.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by spence

This is revealing.

He also taught me that if someone asks me a question about my beliefs that I cannot answer, I should question why I believe what I do.

Just sayin'.

[buckman]

Originally Posted by Nebe

I can guarantee you one thing.
Not sure how to prove this theory but I would guess that Bernie Sandars has a much higher ratio of college educated free thinking types vs while trump has the same ratio, but it's GED VS high school diploma.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

That will all change when the freethinkers have jobs and families to support . Unless of course you and I are supporting their family's
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[Sea Dangles]

I say we should keep college expensive. If your parents are unable to afford it then learn how to use a shovel or clean tables.
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[scottw]

Originally Posted by Nebe

I can guarantee you one thing.
Not sure how to prove this theory but I would guess that Bernie Sandars has a much higher ratio of college educated free thinking types vs while trump has the same ratio, but it's GED VS high school diploma.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

pretty sure Bernie Sandbars has a higher ratio of stoned supporters too!

[buckman]

Originally Posted by scottw

pretty sure Bernie Sandbars has a higher ratio of stoned supporters too!

That's why they are free from thinking
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[Jimbo]

Professor Rockhound, my career was with the world's largest global satellite communications provider. I took a 1 year program and got a diploma in computer programming that got my foot in the door and spent the next 30 years jumping on things my college education prepared me for, like developing a distance learning program, writing procedures, writing documentation, writing press releases, writing patents to protect the company's intellectual property, asset management. If I encountered a situation where I was in an engineering function, which happened frequently, like doing equations of some sort, I got someone to show me the steps on their calculator and I memorized them. I think they call it "on the job training, or learning by doing". I think a lot of professional jobs are like that. You get the basics of something in college and take that to the workforce and apply it.
What I'm profoundly confused about is how the statement can be made that math and science for the non-technical person is recommended, but public speaking, creative or technical writing, or history for the technically bound is a load of crap.
I don't necessarily think kids really want college to be cheaper, I think many just want to bypass things they think are trivial, bypass entry level jobs and jump into a CEO's salary because they think they're owed that.

[spence]

Originally Posted by Jimbo

Professor Rockhound, my career was with the world's largest global satellite communications provider. I took a 1 year program and got a diploma in computer programming that got my foot in the door and spent the next 30 years jumping on things my college education prepared me for, like developing a distance learning program, writing procedures, writing documentation, writing press releases, writing patents to protect the company's intellectual property, asset management. If I encountered a situation where I was in an engineering function, which happened frequently, like doing equations of some sort, I got someone to show me the steps on their calculator and I memorized them. I think they call it "on the job training, or learning by doing". I think a lot of professional jobs are like that. You get the basics of something in college and take that to the workforce and apply it.
What I'm profoundly confused about is how the statement can be made that math and science for the non-technical person is recommended, but public speaking, creative or technical writing, or history for the technically bound is a load of crap.
I don't necessarily think kids really want college to be cheaper, I think many just want to bypass things they think are trivial, bypass entry level jobs and jump into a CEO's salary because they think they're owed that.

Bingo.

Additionally, the engineering or actuary job Jim wants to fast track to is evaporating. His is a 1993's mindset at best.

The innovation economy of the future doesn't reward narrowly minded thinkers, it requires a multi-perspective approach to everything that can synthesize dissimilar ideas, market them, manage them etc…

I'm an artist in a sales job working with engineers on operational strategy. It's exactly what the ancient Greeks wanted.

[Nebe]

Originally Posted by Jimbo

Professor Rockhound, my career was with the world's largest global satellite communications provider. I took a 1 year program and got a diploma in computer programming that got my foot in the door and spent the next 30 years jumping on things my college education prepared me for, like developing a distance learning program, writing procedures, writing documentation, writing press releases, writing patents to protect the company's intellectual property, asset management. If I encountered a situation where I was in an engineering function, which happened frequently, like doing equations of some sort, I got someone to show me the steps on their calculator and I memorized them. I think they call it "on the job training, or learning by doing". I think a lot of professional jobs are like that. You get the basics of something in college and take that to the workforce and apply it.
What I'm profoundly confused about is how the statement can be made that math and science for the non-technical person is recommended, but public speaking, creative or technical writing, or history for the technically bound is a load of crap.
I don't necessarily think kids really want college to be cheaper, I think many just want to bypass things they think are trivial, bypass entry level jobs and jump into a CEO's salary because they think they're owed that.

Just remember that if you have a background like you do, you might not believe that the pyramids were built to store grain.
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[Jimbo]

Not so fast, Nebe. If nothing else, my background taught me to "think outside the pyramid".

[Nebe]

Ha! Yes!
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[detbuch]

Hey, Nebe, maybe the poor and middle class Egyptians originally built them to store grain so that they would have a supply of food in the bad times like when global warming dried up the Nile and so forth. You know . . . that fair distribution of stuff that poor and middle class folk believe in. But, as always seems to be the case, the top .01 percent, Pharaohs and such, scarfed up the pyramids which were built on the backs of the poor, for their own personal use. You know . . . that income inequality thing . . . The poor and middle class Egyptians sure could have used a Bernie back then.