Beware, fellow plutocrats, the pitchforks are coming

[Pete F.]

A succinct explanation by a successful and avowed capitalist of why wealth inequality will make our system fail and some ways to avoid the pitchforks.

https://youtu.be/q2gO4DKVpa8

[JohnR]

Because the Mob will always overthrow the next leaders.

[Jim in CT]

If his wealth is "obscene" as he says, why does he cling to it? What's stopping him from giving it away?

He's also wrong when he says that everyone who isn't a plutocrat, is falling further behind. I'm not in the top 1%, not even close, but I'm not falling behind, either. My net worth isn't increasing as fast as his, but it's not decreasing.

He is also speculating wildly when he says that unless we address income inequality, that we will turn into 18th century France.

Pete, we have discussed this. I asked you many times, and you didn't answer, this key question...what has this guy taken form anybody? How has his wealth, caused anyone else's poverty?

He talks about all the benefits of increasing wages, and there may well be benefits. Not one word about the increased costs that come with higher wages.

Pete, go to your local pizzeria, and ask the owner why he doesn't pay his bus boy and cashier, $45,000 a year.

I agree with you Pete, that this guy's wealth isn't fair. Where you and I disagree, is that I don't think his wealth is hurting anybody. I can't fathom how anyone would necessarily better off, if this guy stopped making money after he accumulated, say, $1M.

If he wants to donate his wealth to the needy, he can amazing good by doing so.

But I see no evidence that he took anything from anybody, I see no evidence that his wealth is the cause of anyone else's poverty. Do you?

[detbuch]

Raising costs (wages) is the flip side of raising prices.

As well, controlling wages is the flip side of price control.

The flip side of each has opposite distorting affect on the signals the market needs to make the proper calculations of production and investment phases.

One flip side can produce overproduction, with ensuing drops in prices, loss of revenue and businesses going bankrupt. The other can produce underproduction, scarcity, and inflated prices, and loss of wage buying power.

[nightfighter]

Jesus, Pete. You make my head explode.... How about some fishing contribution???? A little discussion, ok. But come on.... You alone have initiated 71 threads this year in the Political Forum.... Maybe you should go to a political site.....

[Slipknot]

Pete,

watch this youtube instead and learn from history and see that we seem to elect politicians who only care about themselves and don't learn from history.

Here is a businessman who was widely mocked but knew a lot. We could have eliminated the national debt if he were elected and I am certain of that. NAFTA would not have had a chance.
But we are left with the struggles of the middle class and all the problems that have gone on in the recent past.
I think it can be fixed, it's not too late but keep supporting the wrong people and the ship will sink.

[wdmso]

Originally Posted by Slipknot

Pete,

watch this youtube instead and learn from history and see that we seem to elect politicians who only care about themselves and don't learn from history.

Here is a businessman who was widely mocked but knew a lot. We could have eliminated the national debt if he were elected and I am certain of that. NAFTA would not have had a chance.
But we are left with the struggles of the middle class and all the problems that have gone on in the recent past.
I think it can be fixed, it's not too late but keep supporting the wrong people and the ship will sink.

it's not too late but keep supporting the wrong people and the ship will sink.


To late the wrong guy already has the Job .. ( he's no Ross Perot ) Rumor is he's going to write everyone a check if they don't speak up against him and sign a NDA

[scottw]

[Cool Beans]

Originally Posted by nightfighter

Jesus, Pete. You make my head explode.... How about some fishing contribution???? A little discussion, ok. But come on.... You alone have initiated 71 threads this year in the Political Forum.... Maybe you should go to a political site.....

[PaulS]

Originally Posted by nightfighter

Jesus, Pete. You make my head explode.... How about some fishing contribution???? A little discussion, ok. But come on.... You alone have initiated 71 threads this year in the Political Forum.... Maybe you should go to a political site.....

Who has the most posts in this forum in that time?

[Sea Dangles]

Originally Posted by PaulS

Who has the most posts in this forum in that time?

He said Pete,why does this offend you?
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[PaulS]

Originally Posted by Sea Dangles

He said Pete,why does this offend you?
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

Your reading comprehension stinks - why am I not suprised?

[nightfighter]

Originally Posted by PaulS

Who has the most posts in this forum in that time?

I have no interest in doing that data search.....

[Jim in CT]

Pete, in all seriousness, can you tell us why poor people have a legitimate beef, with the guy in this video? How is he the reason, that anybody else is poor. What does his wealth, have to do with someone else's poverty?

Why don't you ever address that?

I'm bald. Sometimes I wish I had hair. Should I therefore blame and hate the men I see who have hair? Did they cause my baldness?

I'm also 25 pounds overweight. Should I take a pitchfork to all the lean men I see? Is my chubbiness, their doing? Why is it fair that I'm flabby, while that guy in the 'Creed' movies is so jacked? It's not fair!! I want some of his abs, why does HE get to have all the abs?

Do you see how stupid this sounds?

It' snot the same thing, poverty and baldness are not the same thing, I know that. But we both used cases og glaring inequity, to blame people who did pretty much nothing, to deprive anyone else of having what they have.

Wealth is not finite. You seem to think it is (all liberals seem to think that). It's not.

I did the math once, I determined that if the CEO of Walmart worked for free and gave all his money to their US employees, it worked out to around $30 a year for each. Whoop dee do.

[PaulS]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

I'm bald. Sometimes I wish I had hair.

Bald is in. Just don't do the comb over.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by PaulS

Bald is in. Just don't do the comb over.

I'm getting ready to shave right down to the skull.

[Pete F.]

Jim keeps claiming that wealth distribution is about giving poor people money they don't deserve. The dying middle class is the problem and the concentration of wealth is one of the causes.
Money is like manure: in one big pile it just stinks; spread it around and it makes things grow.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by Pete F.

Jim keeps claiming that wealth distribution is about giving poor people money they don't deserve. The dying middle class is the problem and the concentration of wealth is one of the causes.
Money is like manure: in one big pile it just stinks; spread it around and it makes things grow.

"the concentration of wealth is one of the causes.]"

You can say it a million times, I note you never explain how.

How is one person's wealth, the cause of anyone else's struggle? HOW? I'd love to have more money to get my kids nicer things. But the guy in your video, has done ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to make it harder for me to become wealthier. He hasn't taken anything from me. I am the reason why I am not wealthier, ME, not him.

If that's incorrect, please explain how. I'm all ears.

If that guy's bank makes a ton of money today and he gets richer, HOW HAS THAT HURT YOU? Go start your own business if you want what he has.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by Pete F.

. The dying middle class is the problem and the concentration of wealth is one of the causes.
.

The guy in your video was an early investor in amazon. If amazon goes up today, that makes him richer. How in Gods name is that result, hurting anyone in the middle class? How, exactly?

He's not taking anything away from anyone.

[Pete F.]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

The guy in your video was an early investor in amazon. If amazon goes up today, that makes him richer. How in Gods name is that result, hurting anyone in the middle class? How, exactly?

He's not taking anything away from anyone.

I don't necessarily agree with his cure, but I definitely think there is a big problem.

It's not HIM
He did not say it was HIM
I didn't say it was HIM

Our political system has given great advantages to corporate america, because they own the politicians.

The data proves that the middle income class has shrunk and wealth has become more and more concentrated in the highest income class.

Amazon is a good example of what has happened and how wealth distribution has changed our society
30 years ago if I wanted a pair of pants or shoes, I would go to the store in town and buy them.
Assume I spent a hundred dollars
Of that $100 the money would go to the following places
The merchant would pay
$40 for the goods and that likely would go out of town
$40 for his building, taxes, fuel, electric, advertising and most of this would stay pretty local
$10 for his employees
and he would pay his loans and make a profit hopefully on the other $10
Of the $100 I spent probably 60% would remain in my area to be spent again and again.
Well some say, Amazon is cheaper, you save money
Assume it only costs me $80 for the same thing from Amazon
Of that $80 none stays in my area to be spent again and again
There are no local employees
The money doesn't get spent at my or my employers establishment.
The store no longer pays taxes

The $20 dollars I "saved" is the most costly money you can find.

That money is what funds our society, pays our neighbors, provides little league, makes local tackle shops work and is what our society was based on.

It is pretty evident if you look at most any town what has happened to our society.

[Jim in CT]

pete, i agree with you that the poor and the middle class are falling behind, you don’t need to convince me of that. you need to convince me that the existence of a small number if wealthy people, are causing that.

i also agree that big box stores are hurting small business. how would you stop that? what kind of law would
you pass? and regardless of what you seem to think, increasing prices 25% is going to have a massive negative impact on the middle class you say you want to help.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[Pete F.]

The last time wealth was in the hand of a few, antitrust laws were passed that broke up the big companies.
That was in 1890 and 1914.
We need to do it again.

[Slipknot]

“and the concentration of wealth is one of the causes.“

Jim, I think Pete does not know the difference between causes and symptoms
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by Slipknot

“and the concentration of wealth is one of the causes.“

Jim, I think Pete does not know the difference between causes and symptoms
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

i totally agree. totally, totally agree. not just him though, most liberals.

i don’t like income inequality, i don’t think it’s fair. but one persons wealth is almost never the cause of someone else’s poverty. the existence of wealthy people is good for the rest of us - most pay taxes, most give some to charity, most invest some, spend some, put some in the bank, all of which helps the rest of us.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[Slipknot]

We should all spend less time on this pol forum and more time trying to get term limits
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[Pete F.]

Term limits would be helpful, we have agreed on that before.
What can we do to make term limits a real political issue?
Could be a permanent thread

But back to the discussion
So if wealth concentration and the loss of the middle class are but symptoms of problems in our society, what is the root cause?
You can have more than one root cause to any problem and typically do in complex problems and a thing can be both a root cause of one problem and a symptom of another.

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by Pete F.

Term limits would be helpful, we have agreed on that before.
What can we do to make term limits a real political issue?
Could be a permanent thread

But back to the discussion
So if wealth concentration and the loss of the middle class are but symptoms of problems in our society, what is the root cause?
You can have more than one root cause to any problem and typically do in complex problems and a thing can be both a root cause of one problem and a symptom of another.

The largest, most powerful, centralized entity that siphons the most money from you and your community is the federal government. Perhaps we could start from there as a root cause for what, as you say, "is pretty evident if you look at most any town what has happened to our society." And if we fix that problem, we can begin to return to, as you say, "what our society was based on."

[Pete F.]

Originally Posted by detbuch

The largest, most powerful, centralized entity that siphons the most money from you and your community is the federal government. Perhaps we could start from there as a root cause for what, as you say, "is pretty evident if you look at most any town what has happened to our society." And if we fix that problem, we can begin to return to, as you say, "what our society was based on."

And how would eliminating large parts of the current federal government change any part of this example of how our retail markets have changed:
Amazon is a good example of what has happened and how wealth distribution has changed our society
30 years ago if I wanted a pair of pants or shoes, I would go to the store in town and buy them.
Assume I spent a hundred dollars
Of that $100 the money would go to the following places
The merchant would pay
$40 for the goods and that likely would go out of town
$40 for his building, taxes, fuel, electric, advertising and most of this would stay pretty local
$10 for his employees
and he would pay his loans and make a profit hopefully on the other $10
Of the $100 I spent probably 60% would remain in my area to be spent again and again.
Well some say, Amazon is cheaper, you save money
Assume it only costs me $80 for the same thing from Amazon
Of that $80 none stays in my area to be spent again and again
There are no local employees
The money doesn't get spent at my or my employers establishment.
The store no longer pays taxes

The $20 dollars I "saved" is the most costly money you can find.

That money is what funds our society, pays our neighbors, provides little league, makes local tackle shops work and is what our society was based on.

[detbuch]

QUOTE=Pete F.;1157475]And how would eliminating large parts of the current federal government change any part of this example of how our retail markets have changed:

To begin with, you claim that "The dying middle class is the problem and the concentration of wealth is one of the causes."
I assume by "wealth" you mean "money." The federal government has, by far, the greatest concentration of money in this country. And it has the largest monopoly of power and the total monopoly on doing the various things it does "for" us or against us.

Amazon is a good example of what has happened and how wealth distribution has changed our society

Amazon is an irrelevant midget compared to the power and influence the fed gov has over us, and the federal government extracts way more money from us and our communities than Amazon does.

30 years ago if I wanted a pair of pants or shoes, I would go to the store in town and buy them. Assume I spent a hundred dollars . . . Of the $100 I spent probably 60% would remain in my area to be spent again and again.
Well some say, Amazon is cheaper, you save money
Assume it only costs me $80 for the same thing from Amazon
Of that $80 none stays in my area to be spent again and again
There are no local employees
The money doesn't get spent at my or my employers establishment.
The store no longer pays taxes

There is an infrastructure in your community that is paid by Amazon to receive, store and deliver your purchase.

The $20 dollars I "saved" is the most costly money you can find.

It's $20 that you would not have had to spend in other parts of your community if you had paid $100. It could help to support some new businesses to replace those that were lost. Entrepreneurs in your community can produce things that Amazon would sell. When there are opportunities, entrepreneurs who are free to do so, create new wealth. Where there are productive people, wealth can be created. If they are free to do so.

Small businesses have always been ephemeral, and have come and gone for many reasons.

That money is what funds our society, pays our neighbors, provides little league, makes local tackle shops work and is what our society was based on.[/QUOTE]

Our society was not based on a leviathan central government extracting the greatest amount of money from our local communities. Those "large parts of the current federal government" you speak of were not part of our founding.

Wealth and money are not the same thing. The "wealth" of our founding nation was not money, but a free exchange between labor and production as Adam Smith would have envisioned it. Money was just a means of representing and distributing that wealth. Our "wealth" was a product of a free, capitalist, market. Which was an escape from a previous government regulated mercantile market which actually extracted wealth from the labor and production of local communities or colonies.

Our present economic market is evolving from free market capitalism back into a sort of neo mercantilist system in which government regulation of the market is greatly for the benefit of government treasury and power along with its crony oligarchs such as Amazon--national govt. extraction of, as opposed to individually distributed, wealth. The current neo-mercantile type of national wealth extracts a major portion of the money earned from labor and production and redistributes it to government bureaucratic power, and, by regulation which favors big business, to its oligarchic partners, as well as to its government dependents.

A healthy "middle class" resulted from free market capitalism, and it shrinks as we switch to mercantilism, and then to socialism and ultimately to communism.

The massive regulatory system of our current administrative state has diminished the power of communities to run their own businesses and lives. The devolution of that regulatory and administrative power back to the states and local communities where it used to reside would increase the wealth of their citizens.

And the "middle class" could be restored. In the meantime we are left wondering what to do. And think, maybe, unattainable term limits would do the job.