More on public unions - New Haven police

[Jim in CT]

OK, the city of New Haven, CT is broke. So they asked the police union to make some concessions, to which the union predictably said "no".

So the city did the only thing it could do, it laid off 16 officers in a foce of 400 cops.

The president of the union is a police Sgt named Lou Cavielerre.

Here is what he said about the layoffs...

"officers might not answer certain calls because we are not going to jeopardize ourselves and that the public are going to have to start arming themselves, defend themselves and do whatever they can to protect their property and themselves."

This is a perfect example of the absurdity, the sheer lunacy, that unions bring to the table.

New Haven cops can retire after 20 years, with no age minimum, so you could retire at 41 with a pension for life. And the pensions are based on the 3 highest-paid years, and the pensions reflect overtime.

These unions are never, ever satisfied. It's never, ever enough. They always want more, and more, and more...Parasites.

[Fly Rod]

City councilors or selectmen have brought it on themselves. All they have ever done is give, give, giveinto the union. There is a city that pays an officer 500 bucks more a year for wearing their name plate.

Your Connecticut city councilors do not have the balls to fix it, they are the blame in every city. If they ever do away with the pensions they will after a while screw up the 401K. It will start out 1 to 1 and a few years later end up 6 to 1 with the 6 coming out of the tax payer.

You lose!

Do not blame the teachers, firemen, public works, all they did was ask for and your elected officials gave it to them.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by Fly Rod

City councilors or selectmen have brought it on themselves. All they have ever done is give, give, giveinto the union. There is a city that pays an officer 500 bucks more a year for wearing their name plate.

Your Connecticut city councilors do not have the balls to fix it, they are the blame in every city. If they ever do away with the pensions they will after a while screw up the 401K. It will start out 1 to 1 and a few years later end up 6 to 1 with the 6 coming out of the tax payer.

You lose!

Do not blame the teachers, firemen, public works, all they did was ask for and your elected officials gave it to them.

I have said that I don't blame the cops for taking what is offered to them. I do blame the cops for feeling "entitled" to it, when they know damn well the hole that is being dug for everyone else. In this case of the New Haven cops, they are telling citizens that their lives are in danger because of the cuts.

You are dead-on, the politicians (which in CT, means Democrats) bear a huge portion of the blame.

And the union leadership are more or less crazy, they always turn a deaf ear to the fact that these promises are simply illogical.

"If they ever do away with the pensions they will after a while screw up the 401K"

My college roomate does desktop support at UCONN. He doesn't get a pension, he gets something like a 401(k), the state gives him a 9% match. None percent. Plus, his 3 kids will go to UCONN for free because he works there, not a bad union perk, worth $240,000 in today's dollars. And his salary isn't one cent less than what he'd command in the private sector.

[JohnnyD]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

OK, the city of New Haven, CT is broke. So they asked the police union to make some concessions, to which the union predictably said "no".

So the city did the only thing it could do, it laid off 16 officers in a foce of 400 cops.

Unions seem to only care about how much they can screw "The Man." It doesn't matter if 100 people get fired so that the ones left don't have to make any sacrifices.

In my town, the school went to the teachers Union and told them "We've made cuts to all the programs and still won't have enough money to keep all the current teachers employed. We need you to pay an extra 5% towards health coverage. Otherwise, we're going to have to lay off about 10% of the teaching staff."

Union said "screw #^&#^&#^&#^&. The next week, 35 or so teachers in town were pink-slipped.

It's not about the greater good. It's about putting their boot on the neck of whomever they are negotiating with.

[justplugit]

Originally Posted by Fly Rod

Do not blame the teachers, firemen, public works, all they did was ask for and your elected officials gave it to them.

Agree. When did you ever see anybody turn down money or benefits
offered to them no matter what job they held.
Like you say the elected officials gave it to them because of the power
of unions to throw votes their way.

A family member, very young at the time, would not vote for Bush
in the 2000 election because he was told at a union meeting he would loose $15/hr if Bush got in.
Never lost a penny, made more money under Bush, had all the overtime he wanted.

So far he has been out of work for the last 9 months under the new administration.
Eleven years later and he is seeing the light.

[Fly Rod]

Jim, get over it. Have you ever given back a pay raise or told your employer not to give you one? It is never ever going to change. A city councilor looks at how many city employees there are, lets use the figure of 1,000 employees, that's the potential of maybe getting that many votes to get re-elected.

Everybody deserves a cost of living raise regardless if you are a public servant or in the private sector. Does your city fathers have to give into the union wanting a fith week of paid vacation, five more sick days, five more personal days? NO.

My city has done well negotiating with the police department for a three year contract. All they got was a three year pay increase, 1.5% starting 2011, 2% in 2012 and 1.5% in 2013.

Maybe you should sell your property in that city and move to a city or town that has a lower tax rate. I pay 11.50 per thousand, the town next to me pays 13.00 per thou and four towns away pays 15.00 per thou. I'm not happy paying the 11.50 but looking at what other cities and towns pay I should smile.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by Fly Rod

Jim, get over it. Have you ever given back a pay raise or told your employer not to give you one? It is never ever going to change. A city councilor looks at how many city employees there are, lets use the figure of 1,000 employees, that's the potential of maybe getting that many votes to get re-elected.

Everybody deserves a cost of living raise regardless if you are a public servant or in the private sector. Does your city fathers have to give into the union wanting a fith week of paid vacation, five more sick days, five more personal days? NO.

My city has done well negotiating with the police department for a three year contract. All they got was a three year pay increase, 1.5% starting 2011, 2% in 2012 and 1.5% in 2013.

Maybe you should sell your property in that city and move to a city or town that has a lower tax rate. I pay 11.50 per thousand, the town next to me pays 13.00 per thou and four towns away pays 15.00 per thou. I'm not happy paying the 11.50 but looking at what other cities and towns pay I should smile.

"Have you ever given back a pay raise "

No. But when I get a raise in the private sector, I have to make my customers WANT to absorb that cost. In the public sector, when they want a raise, they just take it, with force of law. There's a wee bit of difference there, and the public is starting to wake up to it.

"It is never ever going to change"

The people in Wisconsin would disagree with you. And the fact that every state is about bankrupt tells me that change, big change, is coming.

"Everybody deserves a cost of living raise regardless if you are a public servant or in the private sector"

I take it you have never owned your own business. Because if an employee isn't pulling his weight, or if a business is struggling, not everyone can get a raise. If the money isn't there, you can't spend it. I guess that's too complex for you.

Same thing goes for public workers. When the taxpayers have less wealth to fork over, it seems rational to me that the govt should find a way to spend less.

"All they got was a three year pay increase"

IRRELEVENT. It's not about pay, that's simply a smokescreen, that's all that is. The fat that must be trimmed is in the benefits...pensions and healthcare costs.

"Maybe you should sell your property in that city and move to a city "

Maybe. But maybe the town and state I live in can try to live in the real world before I'm forced out.

Fly Rod, what about my post here? What do you think about a cop telling the citizens to arm themselves?

[Fly Rod]

[QUOTE=Jim in CT;839470]"Have you ever given back a pay raise "

Never gave back a pay raise, I earned every one of them. My first raise was in 1969, my boss gave me .10 per hr. more and he made it a point when he gave me my paycheck to say, "Don't think that I made a mistake in your paycheck, I gave you ten cents more an hour."

From reading all your past post you seem like a bitter person, maybe you feel you are owed something.

"I take it you have never owned your own business. Because if an employee isn't pulling his weight, or if a business is struggling, not everyone can get a raise. If the money isn't there, you can't spend it. I guess that's too complex for you."

I owned a very successful business in the building and remodeling field, thirty five years 1972-2007, built the last new house for myself, no mortgage. Allowed me to fly fish around the country and in Canada and allowed me to have a little retreat in the Bahamas for a few years. Given out pay raises when deserved, fired people when needed. 1990ish recession, " you probably do not know anything about that," laid off all but two employees as work slowed, almost went bankrupt too, bounced back and enjoyed life once again. Gave up the business due to illness in 2007. Now I'm in a more lucrative business, real estate, with the wife but, my illness is starting to take its toll once again.


"Fly Rod, what about my post here? What do you think about a cop telling the citizens to arm themselves?"

Look at the source, a union president, all rhetoric. No cop has to tell me to arm myself, I'm armed. Tell me, when was the last time a cop prevented a rape, a bank robbery or murder? They always get there after the fact. Arm yourself. Being a Marine I would think you are armed.

[Jim in CT]

[QUOTE=Fly Rod;839549]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

"Have you ever given back a pay raise "

Never gave back a pay raise, I earned every one of them. My first raise was in 1969, my boss gave me .10 per hr. more and he made it a point when he gave me my paycheck to say, "Don't think that I made a mistake in your paycheck, I gave you ten cents more an hour."

From reading all your past post you seem like a bitter person, maybe you feel you are owed something.

"I take it you have never owned your own business. Because if an employee isn't pulling his weight, or if a business is struggling, not everyone can get a raise. If the money isn't there, you can't spend it. I guess that's too complex for you."

I owned a very successful business in the building and remodeling field, thirty five years 1972-2007, built the last new house for myself, no mortgage. Allowed me to fly fish around the country and in Canada and allowed me to have a little retreat in the Bahamas for a few years. Given out pay raises when deserved, fired people when needed. 1990ish recession, " you probably do not know anything about that," laid off all but two employees as work slowed, almost went bankrupt too, bounced back and enjoyed life once again. Gave up the business due to illness in 2007. Now I'm in a more lucrative business, real estate, with the wife but, my illness is starting to take its toll once again.


"Fly Rod, what about my post here? What do you think about a cop telling the citizens to arm themselves?"

Look at the source, a union president, all rhetoric. No cop has to tell me to arm myself, I'm armed. Tell me, when was the last time a cop prevented a rape, a bank robbery or murder? They always get there after the fact. Arm yourself. Being a Marine I would think you are armed.

Sorry, I wasn't asking you if you gave back a pay raise, I was quoting you...yuo said that in your previous post.

"you seem like a bitter person"

Perhaps. I'm tired of watching the "gimme gimme" entitlement mindset of public employees, that's for sure.

"maybe you feel you are owed something."

What, exactly, did I post, that you could possibly interpret that way? All I want is to keep a reasonable percentage of my earnings so I can provide for my kids. And I want the govt to leave us alone, not cripple us with taxes.

"Given out pay raises when deserved, fired people when needed. "

Hold on. You said, in your above post, that everyone deserves a cost-of-living increase. But you fired your emlpoyees that weren't good at their jobs! I'm saying that public employees should be held to the same standard, but they are not. How many public schoolteachers get fired for incompetence? I've literally never heard of it. Here in CT, teachers only get fired for sexual assault...never for being bad at their jobs. The union won't allow that to happen.

"Being a Marine I would think you are armed"

Nope, I've personally had my fill with guns, I hope to never hold one again... But if I took this cop's advice and armed myself, why the f**k should I continue to pay property taxes? If this cop says that he's not going to do his job, and therefore I have to do it myself, why should he continue to get paid?

I also built a few spec houses (4 to be exact), and I loved it. Even now, when I have a bad day, I'll drive by those houses, and I get a pretty good feeling when I see the kids, growing up, getting older, playing in the yards...it's nice knowing you did something tangible, I guess. It's nice knowing that families will be living in those houses, kids growing up there, long after I'm dead and gone. I wish I got into that business before the market turned white-hot, but it was not to be. I'd sure like to get back into it when that market turns around.

[Jim in CT]

Fly Rod -

"I owned a very successful business in the building and remodeling field, thirty five years 1972-2007"

So when the real estate market imploded in 1991-1993, didn't you have to react somehow? I know many real estate folks had to tighten their belts then, in response to a brutal market. That's what businesses do.

But the unions don't want to hear it. Even though the economy is bad, even though tax revenues are down, even though many are unemployed, they still want to get paid as if it were the roaring 1920's.

[Swimmer]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

Fly Rod -
But the unions don't want to hear it. Even though the economy is bad, even though tax revenues are down, even though many are unemployed, they still want to get paid as if it were the roaring 1920's.

Because that is the nature of the beast. In a bad economy thier jobs become much more dangerous. Crime goes up, the persons you interact with are far more violent, desperate, and so on, the number of calls for serviceincrease exponentially. I always said policing was a growth industry. So why when officers, or firefighters are at thier busiest are they suppose to consider cutting thier pay? Cut thier pay but noth thier responsibilties, not. You wouldn't, and its BS about I have to find someone willing to absord my request for more money. City councilors negotiate new contracts all the time and the town meeting votes them up or down. I don't like paying taxes, no one does. I do not take it as an assault on the quality of my life. The town I live in just held a debt exclusion election to see if the TAXPAYERS will build a new school and a new senior center. They overwhelmingly voted in favor of both projects. Need the school but not the senior center.

I know one thing, you get more from a cop or a firefighter than an insurance company. Cops do not raise thier rates if you deal with them more often.
You are beating to death this issue and surpisingly enough not meeting with many others who suffer the same angst. Like Jesse Jackson turned racism into a self-supporting industry you are trying to do the same witth this.

One thing you haven't mentioned is that all of these people you're complaining about pay a whole lot of taxes as well. And from what you say about public employees in Ct., especially the cops, I reference that scoundrel brother-in-law of yours, from Meridian I think, pays more taxes than you.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by Swimmer

Because that is the nature of the beats. In a bad economy thiers jobs become much more dangerous. Crime goes up, the persons you interact with are more violent, and so on. I always said policing was a growth industry. So why when officers, or firefighters are at thier busiest are they suppose to consider cutting thier pay? I don't like paying taxes, no one does. I do not take it as an assault on the quality of my life. The town just held a debt exclusion election to see if the TAXPAYERS will build a new school and a new senior center. They overwhelmingly voted in favor of both projects.

You are beating to death this issue and surpisingly enough not meeting with many others who suffer the same angst. Like Jesse Jackson turned racism into a self-supporting industry you are trying to do the same witth this.

One thing you haven't mentioned is that all of these people you're complaining about pay a whole lot of taxes as well. And from what you say about public employees in Ct., especially the cops, I reference that scoundrel brother-in-law of yours, from Meridian I think, pays more taxes than you.

"I don't like paying taxes, no one does. I do not take it as an assault on the quality of my life. "

If my taxes are taken so that teachers can avoid eating cat food, then I have no problem paying them. If my taxes are increased so that teachers/cops can cling to ridiculoues benefits, that's something else. And that's what is happening.

"One thing you haven't mentioned is that all of these people you're complaining about pay a whole lot of taxes as well"

I don't see the point, but OK, they pay taxes as well. They are paying themselves to an extent, so obviously their taxes will go up as thie compensation increases, but they are still better off.

Swimmer, I have asked a certain question sevarel times, which no one tried to answer. Maybe you can give it a shot?

Why is society better off if cops/teachers get benefitys that dwarf anything available in the private sector? I know why the cops and teachers are better off, that's obvious. But why does that help everyone?

"I reference that scoundrel brother-in-law of yours, from Meridian I think, pays more taxes than you"

I'm pretty comfortable, I'm an actuary and I own a great small business on the side buying gold. That's not the point. Unlike most people who engage in this debate, I'm not worried about myself, I'm worried about others who are struggling to keep up with surging property taxes, which could be reduced significantly if public employees would join the rest of us in the real world.

[Fly Rod]

"I owned a very successful business in the building and remodeling field, thirty five years 1972-2007"

So when the real estate market imploded in 1991-1993, didn't you have to react somehow? I know many real estate folks had to tighten their belts then, in response to a brutal market. That's what businesses do.

You are a dweller, you like to carry on and on and on.

Apparently you did not read through the third paragraph.

BYE!

[buckman]

Food for thought... Ma pays 2 Billion a year for benefits for employees. Yikes..in seven years that is a Big Dig!!! and that took 13 years to build!!!
We just don't have it!!!!!!!

[RIJIMMY]

here is my take, I grew up in a union household and most of my extended family worked for union defense shops in CT.
All those defense companies - mostly union, mostly GONE
US Auto industry - mostly union, mostly GONE
US Teachers? - there because we have no choice, if they were a company and everyone had a choice for charter or private - they'd be GONE too.

Anyone see a pattern here? Can anyone show me where unions have lead to successful business enterprises, anywhere?
Can you imagine if companies like HP, Sony, Apple, IBM, Microsoft, Motorola, etc had the same policy of laying off employees based on tenure? PCs would still be the size of refrigerators and you'd be jamming out to Peter Frampton on your 8-track players!!!
I'd love to be proved wrong but just don't see it.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by Fly Rod

"I owned a very successful business in the building and remodeling field, thirty five years 1972-2007"

So when the real estate market imploded in 1991-1993, didn't you have to react somehow? I know many real estate folks had to tighten their belts then, in response to a brutal market. That's what businesses do.

You are a dweller, you like to carry on and on and on.

Apparently you did not read through the third paragraph.

BYE!

You're right, I missed that part. I know all about that recession. OK, you said you laid off all but 2 employees when things were slow. So why can't I do the same thing with MY employees, which are the public workers? My salary is a bit less than it was 3 years ago, so why can't I do what you did, and tell my employees (teachers/cops) that they need to feel the pain, too? Every economist I have ever geard has said that this recession is worse than the one in 1991. So why can't I ask my employees (cops and teachers) to make the same kinds of sactrifices you asked your employees to make? Can't wait to hear your answer to that one.

Geez, you just don't get it. What I'm saying is, I should have the same authority to do what you did when times were tough. If you had to retain all of your employees, and give them a COLA raise every year (which YOU said they were entitled to), you might not have been able to bounce back.

you're saying that even though YOU allowed yourself to take necessary, drastic actions when times were tough, that public employees should be immune from such market forces. I'd love to know why you think that.

And as property taxes go through the roof, and as state governments tax and regulate businesses more and more, and as iberals talk more and more about how evil "wealth" is, it gets a lot harder for the next generation (me) to enjoy the same awesome success you had.

FlyRod, the financial crisis staring all of us in the face (which my generation did not cause, but we will sure feel the brunt of fixing) is every bit as bad as the crisis you dealt with in the 1990's, when you laid off most of your folks. How would you have reacted if your staff said "no, you can't lay any of us off. On top of that, we want small raises, and we want fat pensions and cheap healthcare. And we aren't working one second more than 40 hours per week. And FlyRod, if you have to get a second job, or sell your house, to meet these demands, that's OK with us". FlyRod, if a politician sided with your employees and put all that into a law that you had to live with, I bet you wouldn't like it. But that's precisely what these unions are doing to all of us.

Go ahead, tell me where I'm wrong, please.

And I pray you feel better!!