PP - Thread Split Off Topic - derailment

[justplugit]

Thread split (more like derailment)

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by scottw

not crazy about most of the GOP but they sure look great next to the dem's line up of losers

Have you given Ben Carson a look? I don't think he has a prayer, but my God, the guy is impressive. He went to Harlem yesterday, and told people in Harlem (talk about going into the belly of the beast) and told them that it's not white republicans who are to blame for their problems, but rather the liberal policy "of not showing us respect, not treating us like equals, but patting us on the head and treating us like pets. That's what happens when they don't respect you, but take care of you, so that in turn, you will take care of them". Heroically, he likened liberal policies to Lyndon Johnson's famous statement "if we give these n's free stuff, they'll vote for us for 200 years". He also said that the only solution is to embrace the only values that matter, family and faith.

Brave, and very intellectually honest.

[justplugit]

I always liked him. A bright guy who seems very honest and trustworthy.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by justplugit

I always liked him. A bright guy who seems very honest and trustworthy.

He gave a great answer on his abortion position very recently. He said that he worked most of hi scareer as a pediatric neurosurgeon, an dthat he couldn't count ho wmany times he and his team fought all night long, giving everything they had, to save critical babies, sometimes who were still in the womb. So he said that no one should be shocked that he's not in favor of killing babies for convenience.

I thought it was a fair, honest answer.

He just comes across as a decent, honest, thoughtful man.

[PaulS]

Originally Posted by justplugit

I always liked him. A bright guy who seems very honest and trustworthy.

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

He gave a great answer on his abortion position very recently. He said that he worked most of hi scareer as a pediatric neurosurgeon, an dthat he couldn't count ho wmany times he and his team fought all night long, giving everything they had, to save critical babies, sometimes who were still in the womb. So he said that no one should be shocked that he's not in favor of killing babies for convenience.

I thought it was a fair, honest answer.

He just comes across as a decent, honest, thoughtful man.

So neither of you have any problems with his research on tissue from aborted fetus'?

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by PaulS

So neither of you have any problems with his research on tissue from aborted fetus'?

A tough but fair question.

I don't think most people have a problem with performing medical research on corpses, even babies. I have no quarel with that. But I would assume that those folks died of natural causes or an accident. I also assume, as the law requires, that fetal corpses used for research, were not manipulated while still alive, for the specific reason of maximizing harvestable tissue. Finally, what sickened a lot of folks about PP, was the absolute callousness with which they discussed such things, but in my opinion, you need to have something deeply wrong with you to do that for a living, so maybe it's not that surprising.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by PaulS

So neither of you have any problems with his research on tissue from aborted fetus'?

If it matters, Carson is denying that he ever performed research on fetal tissue. His surgeries. done in the effort to save lives, were sometimes used as a source for scientific research. He has no ethical issue with that research, but claims he has never been involved.

[justplugit]

Originally Posted by PaulS

So neither of you have any problems with his research on tissue from aborted fetus'?

Today was the first I heard of that.
He is being interviewed tonight so I will wait to see what he has to say
before I pass judgment.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by justplugit

Today was the first I heard of that.
He is being interviewed tonight so I will wait to see what he has to say
before I pass judgment.

Saw an interview, he adamantly denied ever doing research, though he stated he has no ethical quarrels with research of fetal tissue, as long as it is acquired in an ethical way. He had some real words about Planned Parenthood and their founder, Margaret Sanger, an unapologetic, loathsome racist.

[spence]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

If it matters, Carson is denying that he ever performed research on fetal tissue. His surgeries. done in the effort to save lives, were sometimes used as a source for scientific research. He has no ethical issue with that research, but claims he has never been involved.

No he isn't. He simply detached his research from how the tissue was obtained.

He's a massive hypocrite.
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[PaulS]

Originally Posted by spence

He simply detached his research from how the tissue was obtained.

He's a massive hypocrite.
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That was my thought. Just say that you've changed your mind in the 20 years since you did it.
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[scottw]

Originally Posted by spence

.

He's a massive hypocrite.

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PaulS That was my thought.




great example...this could easily sink his chances and the details aren't all that clear as it's only been a few days, but Hillary and others can lie, cheat, steal and be a "massive hypocrite" for decades and still get the nomination....funny what becomes "qualities and assets" when you sit on the other side of the aisle

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by spence

No he isn't. He simply detached his research from how the tissue was obtained.

He's a massive hypocrite.
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In the interview I saw, I think he said that while his surgeries sometimes provided fetal tissue for research, he didn't do any research on tissue.

Is there proof he lied? I would genuinely like to know.

Boy, are you selective in your willingness to hold politicians to any standard of ethics...

WHat was Hilary when she claimed she came under sniper fire, misunderstood? Quoted out of context? Or did she never make such a claim, she's just the victim of another vast right wing conspiracy?

[spence]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

In the interview I saw, I think he said that while his surgeries sometimes provided fetal tissue for research, he didn't do any research on tissue.

Is there proof he lied? I would genuinely like to know.

I didn't say he lied, I said he was a hypocrite.

[scottw]

Originally Posted by spence

I didn't say he lied, I said he was a hypocrite.

you routinely support and defend the biggest hypocrite on the planet...ole' "shared sacrafice"...so i guess you're saying Carson has at least one quality that you like in a president if we can catch him in some lies....that would be two

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by spence

I didn't say he lied, I said he was a hypocrite.

I'm wondering, in all honesty, where is the hypocrisy?

Are you saying it's hypocritical for a doctor to perform research on fetal tissue, yet be critical of what Planned Parenthood did? I don't think that's hypocritical at all, because what horrified folks about PP was how that tissue is harvested, and the possibility (far from a certainty) that laws were broken if abortion procedures were altered or profits were made.

I keep forgetting, do you concede that Hilary lied about the sniper thing?

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by scottw

you routinely support and defend the biggest hypocrite on the planet...ole' "shared sacrafice"...so i guess you're saying Carson has at least one quality that you like in a president if we can catch him in some lies....that would be two

Now that's funny right there...

[Nebe]

Originally Posted by spence

I didn't say he lied, I said he was a hypocrite.

Show me one polotician that is not a hypocrite.
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[justplugit]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

Saw an interview, he adamantly denied ever doing research, though he stated he has no ethical quarrels with research of fetal tissue, as long as it is acquired in an ethical way. He had some real words about Planned Parenthood and their founder, Margaret Sanger, an unapologetic, loathsome racist.

Yes, and in addition to the one I saw, he said he did not do any research but was mentioned in the paper because he sent tissue from the process of neurosurgery at John Hopkins, therefore being mentioned in the paper.

The man is a neurosurgeon not an OB/Gyn who would be the ones doing the majority of abortions.

[spence]

In 1992 Ben Carson did research with fetal tissue obtained from abortion.

[scottw]

Originally Posted by spence

In 1992 Ben Carson did research with fetal tissue obtained from abortion.

c'mon Spence...with all of your context, massaging of truth, diversion and cheerleading for scallywags....you can do much better than a simple minded low information voter statement like that.....

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by spence

In 1992 Ben Carson did research with fetal tissue obtained from abortion.

For whatever it's worth, I think he is saying that is not true. Unless his denial referred to sometihng else.

He also said in the interview this week, that he had no ethical quarrel with doing research on fetal tissue. I don't think that's necessarily inconsistent, with being appalled at the PP videos. There are legal/ethical ways to obtain tissue, and unethical/illegal ways.

[Nebe]

http://www.cnn.com/2015/08/13/politi...rch/index.html
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[spence]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

He also said in the interview this week, that he had no ethical quarrel with doing research on fetal tissue. I don't think that's necessarily inconsistent, with being appalled at the PP videos. There are legal/ethical ways to obtain tissue, and unethical/illegal ways.

Jim, where does fetal tissue come from?

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by spence

Jim, where does fetal tissue come from?

It doesn't all come from planned parenthood. We had a mid-term miscarriage a few years ago, it was of the type which, sorry for being blunt, required the removal of the tissue from my wife. We gave consent for the tissue to be used for research, if it was found that there was any value to it. I see notihng unethical with that tissue being used, but I hate what Planned Parenthood was discussing on the videos. I don't think that makes me a hypocrite.

I'm an organ donor. That doesn't mean I want someone to pull the plug on me early, or to alter my treatment at all, just so they can get a more bountiful harvest. "Hey Jim, we're suffering a shortage of brains for research, so we're going to hang you upside down until you die, to get more blood into your brain, that will be better for research."

Some people prefer to let nature take its course.

[spence]

And Planned Parenthood isn't the only abortion provider.

You keep insisting they're trying to push abortions to get more tissue, the law prohibits that. So far we've not sees anything that indicates a violation of the law.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by spence

And Planned Parenthood isn't the only abortion provider.

You keep insisting they're trying to push abortions to get more tissue, the law prohibits that. So far we've not sees anything that indicates a violation of the law.

I never said they push abortions to get more tissue. Can you point to where I said that?

What I said, and it's supported by the videotapes, is that they alter abortion procedures for the specific intent of maximizing the harvest. That is illegal under federal law, and I don't see how anyone could watch those tapes, and not conclude that the PP staff is confessing to that crime. Maybe they didn't actually do it, maybe they were being dishonest on the video. But the videos clearly show that they claimed that they re-position the fetus before it is killed, to maximize the useful tissue/organs. That is a violation of federal law.

I don't think I'm saying it clearly. But in at least one video, the PP lady was very specific about how they position the baby a specific was before it is killed. That's against the law.

[spence]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

I don't think I'm saying it clearly. But in at least one video, the PP lady was very specific about how they position the baby a specific was before it is killed. That's against the law.

You're not listening.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by spence

You're not listening.

I'm trying.

Forget about doingabortions for harvest, forget about doing it for profit. Focus on one thing - the fact that federal law prohibits any abortion from being altered for the purposes of harvesting tissue. You cannot change th way you do an abortion, simply because you want more harvestable tissue afterward.

Said one PP staffer, Melissa Farrell, director of research, said this on tape..."so IF WE ALTER OUR PROCESS, and we are able to obtain intact fetal cadavers, then we can make it part of the budget"

That indicates to me, that PP may be violating the law, which says one cannot alter the procedure for that reason.

Please tell me what I am not hearing...

[Nebe]

If say Jim is winning this argument. However the role of planned parenthood and its services outweigh the desire to cut funding.

I'd be much more in favor of forced sterilization of males and females that have not moved off of welfare for more than 5 years.
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