Anyone following what's going on in Wisconsin?

[Jim in CT]

To me, what the Dems are doing here is cowardly, cry-baby obstructionism. Should generate some interesting debate! God forbid teachers pay 14% of healthcare costs (everyone else pays 30% - 40%).

Missing Wisconsin Democrats Who Skipped Anti-Union Vote Left the State, Senator Says - FoxNews.com

I thought elections had consequences? That's what all the Dems were saying aftre 2008?

[Jim in CT]

And I've had all I can take with these unbelievably greedy teachers acting as if they are taking a vow of poverty for the good of the kids. The Gov of Wisconsin is asking that teachers increase the portion of their healthcare plans to 12.6 percent, WHICH IS LESS THAN HALF OF WHAT THE AVERAGE TAXPAYER IN THE PRIVATE SECTOR PAYS for their healthcare.

In other words, the governor is proposing that teachers pay HALF AS MUCH for their healthcare as the rest of us, and - GASP! - the teachers are all calling in sick, forcing schools to close.

Tell me again why I'd be wrong for calling these teachers blood-s#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&g parasites? They're not willing to pay HALF of what everyone else has to pay?

And these legislators get to flee the state, and presumably still get paid for their services? And Republicans get called obstructionists?

[JohnnyD]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

To me, what the Dems are doing here is cowardly, cry-baby obstructionism. Should generate some interesting debate! God forbid teachers pay 14% of healthcare costs (everyone else pays 30% - 40%).

Missing Wisconsin Democrats Who Skipped Anti-Union Vote Left the State, Senator Says - FoxNews.com

I thought elections had consequences? That's what all the Dems were saying aftre 2008?

The dems are doing what their voter-base wants.

The best line I heard from this:
Union Person: We're going to have our voices heard come the next election. These officials will be put out of office because of this.
The Republican Response: We feel as though the voters got their point across on November 2 when they elected us to fix these problems because the Democrats weren't.

We've gotten into many long threads about the Unions. I'll be very interested in what comes from this. Wisconsin isn't the only place that this is happening - New York, New Jersey and a few others are putting together similar actions, with some Democratic support in many of those cases.

[striperman36]

I'll take a matching, insurance raise, come on, let's get a reality check for the rest of commercial business.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by JohnnyD

The dems are doing what their voter-base wants.

The best line I heard from this:
Union Person: We're going to have our voices heard come the next election. These officials will be put out of office because of this.
The Republican Response: We feel as though the voters got their point across on November 2 when they elected us to fix these problems because the Democrats weren't.

We've gotten into many long threads about the Unions. I'll be very interested in what comes from this. Wisconsin isn't the only place that this is happening - New York, New Jersey and a few others are putting together similar actions, with some Democratic support in many of those cases.

"The dems are doing what their voter-base wants."

BBut why do liberals, unless they are in a union, want to be taxed into oblivion so that a few folks can get rich?

I'd love anyone here who supports the union workers, to answer ONE question...Given the economic situation where are all on, how can unionized employees complain about paying less than half of what everyone else pays? Why do unionized employees deserve such preferential treatment.

[TheSpecialist]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

"The dems are doing what their voter-base wants."

BBut why do liberals, unless they are in a union, want to be taxed into oblivion so that a few folks can get rich?

I'd love anyone here who supports the union workers, to answer ONE question...Given the economic situation where are all on, how can unionized employees complain about paying less than half of what everyone else pays? Why do unionized employees deserve such preferential treatment.

First no one in a union is getting rich.

Second instead of all of this anger towards union employees, whether public sector of private sector for what they have, shouldn't you all be saying if they can get it, why shouldn't I ?

[TheSpecialist]

Just out of curiosity, if all of this taxes goes to employees and benefits how is everything else payed for?
Are you for Social Security?

Are you for Medicaid? Are you for public assistance?

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by JohnnyD

The dems are doing what their voter-base wants.

The best line I heard from this:
Union Person: We're going to have our voices heard come the next election. These officials will be put out of office because of this.
The Republican Response: We feel as though the voters got their point across on November 2 when they elected us to fix these problems because the Democrats weren't.

We've gotten into many long threads about the Unions. I'll be very interested in what comes from this. Wisconsin isn't the only place that this is happening - New York, New Jersey and a few others are putting together similar actions, with some Democratic support in many of those cases.

Another thing Johnny? I know you have the respect of many here (including me), and I know you own your own business. If your employees got together and said "Johnny, we demand that you give us pensions for life, and we're only willing to pay 0.2% of the cost, so you pay the other 99.8%. We also want health insurance, wnd we're only willing to pay 6% of the cost, so you pay the other 94%">

Could you absorb that cost? Would you be able to pass that cost onto your customers? I didn't catch what type of business you own, so maybe it's not applicable to you, but I'm curious...

[JohnnyD]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

"The dems are doing what their voter-base wants."

BBut why do liberals, unless they are in a union, want to be taxed into oblivion so that a few folks can get rich?

I'd love anyone here who supports the union workers, to answer ONE question...Given the economic situation where are all on, how can unionized employees complain about paying less than half of what everyone else pays? Why do unionized employees deserve such preferential treatment.

Unless specifically stated, everything below is just my opinion from observations and educated guesswork. This is going to be a long one, so sorry in advance.

I believe there are two main groups in play that contribute to the large number of people that are supporting the unions:
1. The "What about the children?" group. This group (I'm speculating) consists of your cliche 'bleeding-heart liberals', non-property owners and, to be expected, people with children.
These people feel as though teachers make major sacrifices in their lives "because they care about the kids." They don't look at the big picture - in some areas (like WI) teachers are paid less than average *but* receive killer benefits, the pension, shorter work days and other contract-dictated protections.

2. The anti-establishment group. These are your typical Democrat that believes Unions protect 'the little guy'. My guess is that this group consists mostly of middle income people, may or may not own a home or younger folks especially college age or just after college. This group believes that the towns (and all businesses) will abuse the little guy at ever chance they can get. The mindset of these people is (and this was actually said to me yesterday when I told them I'm anti-Union): "Well, I hope you get stuck in some non-Union job in the private sector and your boss walks in one day and tells everyone they are cutting pay by 50% across the board." When I asked for an example of this ever happening, I was told "You just don't get it."
Essentially, I consider this group misguided. They have a philosophical difference from me. To argue with them and try to change their opinion would be as futile as debating with someone why my religion is better than yours. Unless there is an epiphany, philosophical differences won't be resolved.

There are a few commonalities between both these groups. They are small picture type of people, tunnel-visioned on only the exact subject at hand without looking at the broader ramifications. They don't think "how are we going to pay for this?". They don't understand why using today's employees to pay yesteryear's retirees
is unsustainable. More likely than not, they don't understand how a pension works or what the dollar-value is on the Cadillac plans these Unions argue for.

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

Another thing Johnny? I know you have the respect of many here (including me), and I know you own your own business. If your employees got together and said "Johnny, we demand that you give us pensions for life, and we're only willing to pay 0.2% of the cost, so you pay the other 99.8%. We also want health insurance, wnd we're only willing to pay 6% of the cost, so you pay the other 94%">

Could you absorb that cost? Would you be able to pass that cost onto your customers? I didn't catch what type of business you own, so maybe it's not applicable to you, but I'm curious...

I don't deserve any more respect than the next guy.

To your question, I'd fire all of them. Done. Looking at that large an increase in overhead, I'd keep only my managerial staff and subcontract all the other positions because it would be cheaper. Then I'd tell the staff remaining that if they wanted to pull that crap, they're the next ones gone. Legal? Very questionable, but it sure as hell would get the point across. Most of my staff gets paid better and with more schedule flexibility (8hr day inc. paid lunch, rarely a 'no' if they ask to leave early, never asked to try to come in during bad weather) than any of my competitors pay and they know it.

Loyalty and paying for high quality and excellent service has gone away in my industry. As such, any additional costs have to be absorbed.

[scottw]

[QUOTE=JohnnyD;837903]Unless specifically stated, everything below is just my opinion from observations and educated guesswork. This is going to be a long one, so sorry in advance.

I believe there are two main groups in play that contribute to the large number of people that are supporting the unions:


one more...politicians that are afraid of losing their base of support or having them show up on the lawn of their home terrorizing their family.....great analysis JD

hey, there was a story here yesterday of an ambulance co. that was having to lay off a slew of workers because of reductions in either medicare or medicaid reimbursements, can't remember which...are you affected by cuts like those with your operation?

[Jim in CT]

File this under the category of "you cannot make this up".

Turns out the 14 Democratic senators who fled the state (remember, they fled the state because they were opposed to these union cuts) are staying in a hotel in Illinois.

THEY ARE STAYING IN A NON-UNION HOTEL.

In other words, when these azzholes are spending their own money, they have no intention of absorbing the cost of insane union demands. But these SAME JERKS think all of the taxpayers should be forced to pay that which these clowns won't pay themselves.

Nancy Peolisi is siding with the unions. Nancy Pelosi owns vineyards and hotels in California, zero of which are unionozed.

And I get criticized for saying liberalism is a mental disorder.

[JohnnyD]

Originally Posted by scottw

one more...politicians that are afraid of losing their base of support or having them show up on the lawn of their home terrorizing their family.....great analysis JD

Honestly, I don't even bother considering politicians. They will do/say whatever they need to in order to appease their voting base. None of them have any backbones... not a single one.

hey, there was a story here yesterday of an ambulance co. that was having to lay off a slew of workers because of reductions in either medicare or medicaid reimbursements, can't remember which...are you affected by cuts like those with your operation?

Haven't been on an ambulance in almost 2 years. I keep my emt credentials current, do continuing education and things like that as a fallback plan should anything happen with my company. Turnover is typically high at ambulance companies so it's pretty easy to find a job with at least one of the 4-5 companies in the area.

Costs me up to $500/year to keep my credentials current and 50 hours of classroom time but I consider it a small price to pay to have a fall back plan should the s#$% hit the fan and I need new employment or to pick up a second job.

[scottw]

Originally Posted by JohnnyD

The dems are doing what their voter-base wants.

they all hopped on a bus and left the state...this is hilarious...I guess their voters want them to leave?

we will enjoy two years of this class warfare and public sector and union thug unrest from the "ME PARTY" until the Community Organizer is reelected...

[Fly Rod]

Only one word for the democrats of Wisconsin,

"COWARDS!"

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by Fly Rod

Only one word for the democrats of Wisconsin,

"COWARDS!"

You left out selfish.

They can balance their budget without raising taxes, if the unions would be willing to pay half as much for their benefits as everyone else.

And they respond by throwing a tantrum.

I agree that the proposed bill is unfair, because I don't see why unionized workers shouldn't pay THE SAME as everyone else. Why should the taxpayers bear that burden? Anyone?

[RIROCKHOUND]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

I agree that the proposed bill is unfair, because I don't see why unionized workers shouldn't pay THE SAME as everyone else. Why should the taxpayers bear that burden? Anyone?

Should they pay more? sure.
Should they lose their right to collective bargining? No. that is the crux of this right now. Funny how the police and fire unions were conviniently left out this time around....

[Fly Rod]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

You left out selfish.

No!, I did not leave out selfish.

I was talking about the dems, they are Cowards.

Yes!, the workers are selfish.

[179]

What is going on in Wisconsin will soon be brought to RI, these unions are killing the states and must be brought down. The problem is there are few politicians willing to take the incredible media assault that will surely follow. For you bleeding heart liberals who think teachers are underpayed figure out their hourly rate based on a F/T job with more that 3-months off.

If I were Governor I would give these Teachers one more chance to get back to work or they are suspended without pay, don't like that then you are fired! The same could be said for the Union bought and payed for Democrat Representatives.

[TheSpecialist]

Originally Posted by 179

What is going on in Wisconsin will soon be brought to RI, these unions are killing the states and must be brought down. The problem is there are few politicians willing to take the incredible media assault that will surely follow. For you bleeding heart liberals who think teachers are underpayed figure out their hourly rate based on a F/T job with more that 3-months off.

If I were Governor I would give these Teachers one more chance to get back to work or they are suspended without pay, don't like that then you are fired! The same could be said for the Union bought and payed for Democrat Representatives.

Probably illegal to fire them as they have a right to job actions, unless they have something like a "No Lay#^&#^&#^&#^& clause.

The problem is not the unions, it is the people who manage and agree to the contracts the union presents. The union bashing really needs to stop. If you had a job at Home depot, and one day the manager comes in and says to you 'John you now have to pay 60 a week for your health insurance instead of 15, would you be ticked? I bet you would, no one wants to take a step back from where they are.What you need to realize is this happens to people who work for companies with no bargaining. They chose that job, or career and they are now stuck with it. These people could band together and organize any time they want to, but they choose not to do it.

If we are in such dire straits in this country, why are millionaires like John Kerry drawing taxpayer paychecks. Let's face it they are not doing the job for the money, it is all the perks and benis. Free healthcare for life, pensions, free air travel, networking, partying etc. How come no one is bashing the politicians for all of their perks and beni's?

[scottw]

it appears that what the majority of Americans find offensive is the behaviour of the teachers...the unions are the problem, most Americans have dealt with teachers and/or unions and union workers in some form and understand the game and are quite tired of it

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by TheSpecialist

The problem is not the unions...The union bashing really needs to stop.

Thge last year my wife taught, all the teachers in our town got a letter from the union. The letter instructed all the teachers from serving "hall duty", which means that during the 5 minute break between classes, teachers were asked (by the school) to peer out into the hallway and make sure the kids were OK.

The union told the teachers to stop doing it, because that requirement was not specified in the contract, nor were the teachers getting paid for it.

So the union wasn't willing to let the teachers get off the rear-ends for 5 minutes to make sure the kids weren't killing each other.

Than there was that school in Rhode Island where 99% of the kids were performing below their grade level. The school asked the teacjhers to spend 1 lunch break per week tutoring kids, and the union sain "no, not unless weg get paid extra".

LIKE HELL the unions aren't the problem. Like hell.

Labor unions are following the same path that the civil rights movement, and the women's rights mvement, played in thsi country. These groups all fought some very important battles. When the important battles were won, instead of simply going away, these groups are not part of the problem.

These unions really overplayed their hands in WI. They have forced the governor to go "all in", but fortunately for him, he's got a royal flush, and the unions are holding crap. There might have been political room for the Governor to compromise a week ago...now he has to stand his ground...if he compromises at all, he looks weak.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by TheSpecialist

The problem is not the unions...The union bashing really needs to stop.

The last year my wife taught, all the teachers in our town got a letter from the union. The letter instructed all the teachers to stop serving "hall duty", which means that during the 5 minute break between classes, teachers were asked (by the school) to peer out into the hallway and make sure the kids were OK.

The union told the teachers to stop doing it, because that requirement was not specified in the contract, nor were the teachers getting paid for it.

So the union wasn't willing to let the teachers get off the rear-ends for 5 minutes to make sure the kids weren't killing each other.

Then there was that school in Rhode Island where 99% of the kids were performing below their grade level. The school asked the teachers to spend 1 lunch break per week tutoring kids, and the union said "no, not unless we get paid extra".

LIKE HELL the unions aren't the problem. Like hell. They won't move a muscle unless they get paid extra for it.

Labor unions are following the same path that the civil rights movement, and the women's rights mvement, played in thsi country. These groups all fought some very important battles. When the important battles were won, instead of simply going away, these groups are now part of the problem.

These unions really overplayed their hands in WI. They have forced the governor to go "all in", but fortunately for him, he's got a royal flush, and the unions are holding crap. There might have been political room for the Governor to compromise a week ago...now he has to stand his ground...if he compromises at all, he looks weak.

[JohnnyD]

Originally Posted by TheSpecialist

The problem is not the unions, it is the people who manage and agree to the contracts the union presents. The union bashing really needs to stop.

I'm forced to deal with multiple different unions throughout the country. Every single encounter I have with them reaffirms the stereotype. They take longer to do the job and have stifling restrictions on clients. If we are working with a Union, the labor budget needs to be increased by 50% - consistently.

I have clients that have stopped hosting conferences in places like NYC, Chicago and San Francisco because the Unions are more expense, provide poor service and do a bad job.

The "well, we have to get paid too" mentality is the problem. The managers aren't the problem, the Union philosophy of Entitlement is the problem.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by JohnnyD

If we are working with a Union, the labor budget needs to be increased by 50% - consistently.

Any rational person, unless they get their money from labor unions, will say the same thing.

And why do these labor unions get to force people to join them? If I want to be a public schoolteacher, why am I forced to join a damn union? Why do I have to pay dues to an uber-liberal organization, which gives zillions of dollars to liberal politicians (the more liberal, the better) and liberal causes like Planned Parenthood?

Anyone want to tell me how that's fair?

[RIROCKHOUND]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

(the more liberal, the better) and liberal causes like Planned Parenthood?

Jim,
You're improving.
page 3 before you took the abortion u-turn

[Sweetwater]

What is going on in Wisconsin is just the beginning of a sort of class warfare arising between unionized gov't workers and the private sector. Much has changed in the private sector even before the 2008 economic crash in terms of job loss, wage freezes and reductions, and reduced benefits (or increased personal contribution to benefits) in the private sector.

People in the private sector no longer wish to pay taxes for benefits that they cannot afford for themselves. A friend said to me (on another website), "Don't forget gov't employees pay taxes too!" However, this is not the point, it's like two guys pay a $5 cover charge to enter a nightclub and for one guy (union) it's an open bar and the other guy (private) still has to pay for every drink.

Some statistics from the US Bureau of Labor Statistics.

2010, median earnings of unionized government workers were 25% higher than earnings of private workers and 17% higher than non-unionized gov’t workers. (and yes, I've heard the questionable argument about adjusting for education levels)

95% of unionized gov’t workers have a defined benefit pension plan compared to only 21% of private sector workers -- over 4 times as many! Defined plans can be worth many 10's of thousands of dollars lifetime, depending on wage scale.

Health and dental plans: Unioned gov’t workers (95% and 71% respectively). Private sector workers (71% and 46% respectively).

Further, private sector workers (when they do have such benefits) typically have to contribute more into the plan than unionized gov't workers.

Finally, another argument that pro-union gov't workers tout is that many gov't workers do not qualify for social security (this varies from state to state). However, those who don't qualify never paid in FICA! Would I love to have not paid in FICA for the last 35 years and put that into personal retirement plan? You damned straight I would.

I hope the Governor of Wisconsin shuts those unions down..and would love to see major reform in the "commonwealth" of Massachusetts.

[striperman36]

Are you sick of high paid teachers? Teachers’ hefty salaries are driving up taxes, and they only work 9 or 10 months a year! It’s time we put things in perspective and pay them for what they do - baby sit! We can get that for less than minimum wage.

That’s right. Let’s give them $3.00 an hour and only the hours they worked; not any of that silly planning time, or any time they spend before or after school. That would be $19.50 a day (7:45 to 3:00 PM
with 45 min. off for lunch and plan — that equals 6 1/2 hours).

Each parent should pay $19.50 a day for these teachers to baby-sit their children.

Now how many do they teach in day…maybe 30? So that’s $19.50 x 30 = $585.00 a day. However, remember they only work 180 days a year!!! I am not going to pay them for any vacations.

LET’S SEE…. That’s $585 X 180= $105,300 peryear. (Hold on! My calculator needs new batteries).

What about those special education teachers and the ones with Master’s degrees? Well, we could pay them minimum wage ($7.75), and just to be fair, round it off to $8.00 an hour. That would be $8 X 6 1/2 hours X 30 children
X 180 days = $280,800 per year.

Wait a minute — there’s something wrong here! There sure is!

The average teacher’s salary (nation wide) is $50,000. $50,000/180 days = $277.77/per day/30 students=$9.25/6.5 hours = $1.42 per hour per student–a very inexpensive baby-sitter and they even EDUCATE your
kids!)

https://www.facebook.com/note.php?no...00&id=13909370

[scottw]

that's Obama math....total compensation per teacher..let's use Wisconsin..is between 90-100k, I suspect that it is quite a bit higher in other areas...somehow the benefits etc always get left out of the earnings figures...arguing that teachers don't make enough money or that they shouldn't have to contribute tiny amounts like 12.6% of their healthcare premiums has really lost any merit...

don't mind highly paid teachers as long as they are deserving, the system provided by the union makes it impossible to get rid of bad teachers, a crappy teacher is as highly paid as an exceptional teacher simply because of longevity, you can't move in good new teachers because others have been gumming up the works longer and when they finally decide to go they have to be supported for life....I mentioned before my wife is a teacher(non-union) my parents were teachers and I know a ton of teachers..I get it...I guess private school teachers are really getting screwed by the man using your analogy....if the NJ cost per pupil is 17k+ a year...

I'd be willing to bet that the good, quality teachers are sitting home watching this disgusted and wishing they could get back to their students and have an actual grasp of the reality of the situation...the crappy teachers are the ones holding the misspelled protest signs, the offensive slurs locked arm in arm with union thugs, Jesse Jackson and the various communist, marxist and other radical leftist perpetual protest brigade

oh, my daughter came home for school the other day and told me that for gym the teacher put a Taebow(sp) tape in and that was the class...babysitting at it's best probably has his Masters and everything

[Fly Rod]

I basically agree with the legislators but, it is wrong for them to exclude the firemen, local police and state police. It should be done across the board.

Why are they excluded? They voted for the governor.

[striperman36]

Originally Posted by Fly Rod

I basically agree with the legislators but, it is wrong for them to exclude the firemen, local police and state police. It should be done across the board.

Why are they excluded? They voted for the governor.

and paid into the war chest