Minor details I can't seem to find

[Zeal]

Hello all, I haven't been a "registered member" but I have been a visitor many times to these forums. After scouring the internet in conjunction to this site researching the process of plug creation, there are a few specifics that seem to be eluding me (obviously I am new to this and I always research first as much as possible before I do anything).

1. I am only looking to make darters, metal lipped swimmers, and jointed swimmers (and possibly eels), I have plenty of poppers and fish from the beach, what is the best wood to use for these? In my research I have read Birch, Fir, Maple, Walnut, Ash, Oak, and Hickory are used. I aim to fish the middle and bottom of the water column.

2. Is there any wood type that does not require being loaded with lead in order to be cast a good distance? Or does the lead also improve the action of the lure to the point where it could be the difference between getting hits or not?

3. I know people swear by AYC and Cedar, etc. for poppers, but they must be loaded to do what I need them to do correct?

My goal is to have the lure, when it hits the water, suspend a few feet below the surface and stop sinking at a certain point so when i retrieve it stays in the middle zone or lower zone depending on the speed. I don't want to have it hit the water then just float and dive to the middle water column and only reach the bottom if I crank it hard. Depending on the lure design I may only use a treble hook in the tail and that's it (6 hooks in a pissed bluefish = bad time).

Yes I understand how the search function works, believe me if I have to ask the question then it is something I am just not seeing period and need it told to me.

Any help is appreciated.

[ProfessorM]

I would suggest maple as that is the species that was used without lead by some of the builders of the past for that purpose. Soft maple seems to be used by some of the builders nowadays. I am sure some of the more knowledgeable dater builders will chime in.

[Zeal]

Sorry, I forgot to mention the lure size range I am looking at is 5 - 7 inches as well if that makes any more of a difference in the responses.

Yeah I was thinking of maple, soft maple or there is just a plain maple? I read that soft maple is known for absorbing a lot of sealant which added more weight to the lure as well, does that go for only for that type of wood?

[Tagger]

for darters I've had success using birch ... Hard maple worked well for a little while but high % of splits .. Do either to splitting on impact of water or thru wiring and wrapping arse loop to tight pulling nose loop in like a wedge .. I was going to try again this winter, birch with stainless screw eyes.. good luck ... A plug that worked the bottom well at a slow retrieve was a Floyd Roman Nike 3 ounce,, but I wanted to make the smaller size .. couldn't win one off epay and dropped it ..

[ProfessorM]

Eddie I got one you may want to try, borrow, have. Yes that does swim deep and nice. I copied it out of AYC but it does have a tail wgt and a belly wgt.
Is this the size?

[nightfighter]

Originally Posted by Tagger

A plug that worked the bottom well at a slow retrieve was a Floyd Roman Nike 3 ounce,, but I wanted to make the smaller size ..

PNG is the Roman Nike guru. He gave me a "blem" (ya right. it's beautiful...) at Plugfest 3 or 4 years ago. I've swum it a couple times, but it resides in my show collection where I can see them all winter. PNG is who you want to talk to Eddie.

As for the original question; maple's moisture content varies more than birch, as far as what I have been able to buy for stock. While I am a neophyte, I like my stock to be as dry as possible before turning. More stable wood that way, but means it will absorb more sealant.... As for your wanting the plug to sinkl to a certain depth and stay there, I think you need to weight it, at least to offset the natural buoyancy of that species of wood.

[numbskull]

Maple or birch for needles/darters
AYC/AWC/Pine/Basswood for swimmers/pencils/spooks
AYC/maple for jointeds
You will build much better plugs if you learn to weight them, although darters usually don't require it.

Depth control on plugs is dependent on many factors....not just the wood used.

[Zeal]

Originally Posted by numbskull

Maple or birch for needles/darters
AYC/AWC/Pine/Basswood for swimmers/pencils/spooks
AYC/maple for jointeds
You will build much better plugs if you learn to weight them, although darters usually don't require it.

Depth control on plugs is dependent on many factors....not just the wood used.

I understand the depth control variables, the main concern is that heavier wood = sinks more than wanted with hardware on it and heavily affects the motion.

I know it sounds odd, but I have a bunch of split shots laying around, would using them as the lure weight be feasible (sorry I watched a lot of Macguyver growing up)?

Adding weight, you put weight in the tail for the lures including the darters or you need weight in the belly as well?

This advice is really great, I really appreciate it.

[Tagger]

Originally Posted by Zeal

I understand the depth control variables, the main concern is that heavier wood = sinks more than wanted with hardware on it and heavily affects the motion.

The farther back you put the line tie, the more a darter will dive also .. Well sought after Musso/Pichney darters were unweighted . Hate to sound like a broken record but if you do go the unweighted route might consider hydro orientating .. damm .. opened that can of worms again ..

Yes Paul,, I I think thats the size .. I know that PNG guy a little ...

[ProfessorM]

Originally Posted by Tagger

T

Yes Paul,, I I think thats the size .

I will send you the original with the weights, disassembled. I'll put in mail this week. I am sure VB won't mind as it is a beater. You can give it back at plugfest and someday I may even give it back to Peter. It really is a nice deep swimming plug. I made mine out of AYC.

[Zeal]

Originally Posted by Tagger

Hate to sound like a broken record but if you do go the unweighted route might consider hydro orientating .. damm .. opened that can of worms again ..

By Hydro orientating you mean shaping the blank piece of wood, sealing (if you prefer it), and then putting it in water to see where the top and bottom of the lure is before you put hardware on?

I've been thinking about basically shaping the lure (including making the head slope down since we are talking about a darter in this case), sealing it to avoid water absorption, and rubber banding the hardware on it and dumping it into a bucket/tub/tank etc. to see what happens before you go any further.

Am I just thinking into this too much or asking the wrong question? Process of building the lure out of order?

[ecduzitgood]

Originally Posted by ProfessorM

Eddie I got one you may want to try, borrow, have. Yes that does swim deep and nice. I copied it out of AYC but it does have a tail wgt and a belly wgt.
Is this the size?

OMG! those are gorgeous!!...BRAVO!

[Slipknot]

yes hydro orientate is put round plug in water to find which end is up, sometimes wood rolls over because of tighter heavier grain and it makes a difference especially darters and swimmers. but you have to do it before sanding the slope.

I am not sure how you are going to get a unweighted plug to slow sink and suspend at a certain level. Birch is a great choice for unweighted darters. if you used ironwood to get it to sink, I would think it may not have action since it's so dense.

I don't mind at all adding lead to my plugs.

good luck

[Pete F.]

Just making the plug the right weight to get to the depth does'nt mean it will have the right action. Shape, and balance both make a big difference. The same shape made out of heavy wood and light wood with a weight to balance it will behave differently.

[Rockfish9]

count me in the Birch camp for darters, conrads and slope heads... I like white pine or spruce for trollers and WRC for top water stuff( swimmers and poppers), including floating needles, my sinkers are mahogany..I use maple for my pocket rockets and epoxy my hook hangers, pull eye and belly swivel...

[Zeal]

Well that all made much more sense thank you guys! Just one final question and I'll be out of your hair...I managed to stumble upon North Bar Bottle Darters. Would birch be best used for that lure as well (I don't have any experience with bottle plugs to really know)? The design is very intriguing though I sense that type of lure will definitely need lead in the tail.

[justplugit]

Originally Posted by ProfessorM

Eddie I got one you may want to try, borrow, have. Yes that does swim deep and nice. I copied it out of AYC but it does have a tail wgt and a belly wgt.
Is this the size?

P. You need to work on improving your finish.

[numbskull]

Originally Posted by Zeal

Well that all made much more sense thank you guys! Just one final question and I'll be out of your hair...I managed to stumble upon North Bar Bottle Darters. Would birch be best used for that lure as well (I don't have any experience with bottle plugs to really know)? The design is very intriguing though I sense that type of lure will definitely need lead in the tail.

The NB Bottle darter (and most bottle plugs but not most darters) is pine with a tail weight and and a belly weight, so it will float at @ 30 degrees with the water level even with the line tie.

[ProfessorM]

the naked ones Lu gave me were made of Atlantic white cedar. He does a real nice job on them.

[Zeal]

Just out of curiousity, when you guys load up your plugs, do you just cut a section out of the plug and cement the lead in it filling that space? Has anyone attempted the "roll back load up" system? (when you go to make a cast with hard plastics you hear the little weights clank as they roll back to the tail for a longer cast). Happy Thanksgiving!

[Tagger]

Originally Posted by Zeal

Just out of curiousity, when you guys load up your plugs, do you just cut a section out of the plug and cement the lead in it filling that space? Has anyone attempted the "roll back load up" system? (when you go to make a cast with hard plastics you hear the little weights clank as they roll back to the tail for a longer cast). Happy Thanksgiving!

gamsby wiglet .... only wood plug i can think of that does that ..

[Zeal]

Originally Posted by Tagger

gamsby wiglet .... only wood plug i can think of that does that ..

interesting lure when i looked at it. gotta love the old stuff. ill post the picture of this lure i have, it is freshwater but i have no idea what the lure actually is. i know how to work the plug even though i cant remember anything else about it! but it is the reason to why i got the idea of seeing if i can get a darter to dive down to the bottom quick, suspend, and then do its action when "told".

[Zeal]

my apologies for the double post, i checked the local yard here and the other wood shop and the only wood they carry are : treated Southern Yellow Pine, Cedar (not too specific as to what type but it was white), and some posts meant for closets or decking that were Red Cedar and Oak. As far as assumption goes, you guys would recommend Cedar and just load it up?

[Swimmer]

You know I queried the "gamsby wiglet" and found some interesting hairpieces.
Where can I go to see what Tagger is referring too?

[ProfessorM]

Gamsby

[Zeal]

Hate to repeat myself, but I seem to be in a bit of a crunch...Around where I live it seems Cedar is the only wood available without costing an arm and a leg. If I am LUCKY I may be able to get my hands on some White Pine. Would these be able to do the job of becoming a darter/swimmer? Where do you guys get your chunks of lead to load up the lure?

[numbskull]

You can buy everything you need, including wood, from three sponsors of this forum.
#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&, M&D's (Cape Cod TAckle), or NJ tackle.
Check the sponsors forum.

[Zeal]

Ah thank you very much numbskull, that saved a migraine!

[Zeal]

Originally Posted by numbskull

Maple or birch for needles/darters
AYC/AWC/Pine/Basswood for swimmers/pencils/spooks
AYC/maple for jointeds
You will build much better plugs if you learn to weight them, although darters usually don't require it.

Depth control on plugs is dependent on many factors....not just the wood used.

For needles, do you typically weight the tail and the belly or just the tail? I am using Maple for the wood and aiming for around 5"-6" range, just kind of unsure where to add weight into the needle body. Aiming to make the needle a sinker not a floater.

[numbskull]

Most needles have a tail weight and a belly weight, set up so they sink at a 30-45 degree angle.

Time for you to try the search function, however. Tons of stuff you will learn easily if you do.