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Old 06-11-2018, 01:36 PM   #31
spence
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I'm highly critical of his character. But when he enacts great public policy, I give him credit. The economy is roaring, at a time when many economists feel we are past due for a recession.
If you were highly critical of his character you'd be razing the forum with hyped up posts like you did with Clinton and Obama.

As for his policy leading to a roaring economy I'm not sure where you gather that from. A key reason the economy is doing as well as it is though is the global economy has been performing very strong and lifting us with it. He inherited the positive unemployment, the tax cuts have given us a short-term jolt that is expected to start fading next year but there's not been much movement on wages as well as savings which is very weak. GDP hasn't come close to Trump predictions and is expected to fall to 2% next year.

Goosing an economy at full employment doesn't make a lot of sense unless it's just political payback. Starting trade wars with our allies where we don't even really have trade deficits doesn't make sense either. Remember all the tough talk on China? Trump tried to be a bully and got bitch slapped. Instead we're going to battle with Canada over cheese, our second biggest trading partner and a country who has stood by our side like a blood brother.

It's embarrassing.
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Old 06-11-2018, 01:44 PM   #32
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This is going to be a huge issue in the mid-terms.
All the people saying that, are the same ones predicting that Hilary was going to win in a rout.

We'll see how it plays out. There's an old political expression that goes, "it's about the economy, stupid". Trump wins on the economy. The GOP has the democrats on record saying they will work to repeal the GOP tax cuts. Let's see how receptive Americans are to having their paychecks cut.
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Old 06-11-2018, 01:50 PM   #33
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If you were highly critical of his character you'd be razing the forum with hyped up posts like you did with Clinton and Obama.

As for his policy leading to a roaring economy I'm not sure where you gather that from. A key reason the economy is doing as well as it is though is the global economy has been performing very strong and lifting us with it. He inherited the positive unemployment, the tax cuts have given us a short-term jolt that is expected to start fading next year but there's not been much movement on wages as well as savings which is very weak. GDP hasn't come close to Trump predictions and is expected to fall to 2% next year.

Goosing an economy at full employment doesn't make a lot of sense unless it's just political payback. Starting trade wars with our allies where we don't even really have trade deficits doesn't make sense either. Remember all the tough talk on China? Trump tried to be a bully and got bitch slapped. Instead we're going to battle with Canada over cheese, our second biggest trading partner and a country who has stood by our side like a blood brother.

It's embarrassing.
"If you were highly critical of his character you'd be razing the forum with hyped up posts like you did with Clinton and Obama. "

I have called him a morally bankrupt reptile, and a scumbag, as many times as I criticized Obama. There is no "if".

"As for his policy leading to a roaring economy I'm not sure where you gather that from"

Low unemployment? Record low unemployment for blacks? Stock market soaring? These are the same statistics that got better under Obama, and I never heard you deny that Obama improved the economy.

"there's not been much movement on wages "

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/u-wag...120000493.html

2.9% year over year? That's more of a raise than I got. Not as good as being in a union for sure, but not bad. You're right, wages need to increase more. If the demand for labor now exceeds the supply for the first time ever recorded ("ever" only being 17 years), why wouldn't that help increase wages? Familiar with supply and demand, and their effect on price?
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Old 06-11-2018, 01:51 PM   #34
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If you were highly critical of his character you'd be razing the forum with hyped up posts like you did with Clinton and Obama.

As for his policy leading to a roaring economy I'm not sure where you gather that from. A key reason the economy is doing as well as it is though is the global economy has been performing very strong and lifting us with it. He inherited the positive unemployment, the tax cuts have given us a short-term jolt that is expected to start fading next year but there's not been much movement on wages as well as savings which is very weak. GDP hasn't come close to Trump predictions and is expected to fall to 2% next year.

Goosing an economy at full employment doesn't make a lot of sense unless it's just political payback. Starting trade wars with our allies where we don't even really have trade deficits doesn't make sense either. Remember all the tough talk on China? Trump tried to be a bully and got bitch slapped. Instead we're going to battle with Canada over cheese, our second biggest trading partner and a country who has stood by our side like a blood brother.

It's embarrassing.
You forgot to mention the federal debt

No, no, no. we’re 30… 30, three zero.
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Old 06-11-2018, 02:00 PM   #35
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You forgot to mention the federal debt
Perfect example of the hypocrisy on both sides.

Obama added more to the debt than anyone before. Conservatives said it was terrible, liberals were not concerned.

Trump is now adding to the debt, and the roles are reversed. Conservatives say it's nothing to worry about, liberals now worry about deficits.

Here's the difference...Trump is putting money in the pockets of huge numbers of Americans. Obama never came close to doing that.
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Old 06-11-2018, 02:06 PM   #36
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Did you really just say “What’s the point?”

Serenity Now

How about people can have some self respect and earn their paycheck instead of getting a handout.
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whats the point of having this shortage of works wink wink if wages dont go UP? you worry to much about thoses who you see getting a hand out ... when the vast majority have self respect and earn their paycheck ... but they are not sharing in the profits of this recovery .. the mantra of business and the right is STFU and be thankfull you get a pay check at all
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Old 06-11-2018, 02:07 PM   #37
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"You're going to win so much, you're going to get tired of winning. Believe me." -candidate Donald Trump
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You forgot to mention the federal debt
Don't worry about the future, we are winning today.
Believe me, I told you so
If you deny it you must be from Fake news, one of those failing news organizations, Not state news, oh i meant Faux, Fox, or the deep state, or secretly a democrat, or short or a lying, cheating adjective repeated endlessly until it is true.
Anyways it's all Obama's fault and you'll have to ask him about that, or maybe George Washington.
REPORTER: Mr. President, David Herszenhorn with Politico Europe. Just to come back to Russia for a second. Something that happened that got them kicked out of the G8 was the invasion and annexation of Crimea. Do you think that Crimea should be recognized as Russian (inaudible)?

PRESIDENT TRUMP: Well, you know, you have to ask President Obama, because he was the one that let Crimea get away. That was during his administration. And he was the one that let Russia go and spend a lot of money on Crimea, because they’ve spent a lot of money on rebuilding it. I guess they have their submarine port there and such. But Crimea was let go during the Obama administration. And, you know, Obama can say all he wants, but he allowed Russia to take Crimea. I may have had a much different attitude. So you’d really have to ask that question to President Obama — you know, why did he do that; why did he do that. But with that being said, it’s been done a long time.

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Old 06-11-2018, 02:22 PM   #38
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whats the point of having this shortage of works wink wink if wages dont go UP? you worry to much about thoses who you see getting a hand out ... when the vast majority have self respect and earn their paycheck ... but they are not sharing in the profits of this recovery .. the mantra of business and the right is STFU and be thankfull you get a pay check at all
"the vast majority have self respect and earn their paycheck ... but they are not sharing in the profits of this recovery "

The 'vast majority' are not economically better off today than they were the day before Trump took the oath? How can you say that? More are working, wages are increasing (I posted a link showing that), everyone's tax rates are lower, and anyone who has money in the stock market is obviously better off?

How can you say the 'vast majority' aren't participating in the recovery?

"the mantra of business and the right is STFU and be thankfull you get a pay check at all"

I don't know any businesses or republicans who say anything like that.
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Old 06-11-2018, 03:06 PM   #39
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whats the point of having this shortage of works wink wink if wages dont go UP?
Well if you have 2 jobs available and only 1 person available to fill it, he's probably going to select the job with better pay/benefits. So the company that isn't recuiting enough people, better up their wages/benefits to attract people to their company, or risk a downturn in their business.

"If you're arguing with an idiot, make sure he isn't doing the same thing."
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Old 06-11-2018, 03:15 PM   #40
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Well if you have 2 jobs available and only 1 person available to fill it, he's probably going to select the job with better pay/benefits. So the company that isn't recuiting enough people, better up their wages/benefits to attract people to their company, or risk a downturn in their business.
Geez, when you put it that way, it sounds like common sense and basic supply/demand.
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Old 06-11-2018, 03:16 PM   #41
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Geez, when you put it that way, it sounds like common sense and basic supply/demand.
Every once in awhile I have a lucid moment

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Old 06-11-2018, 03:21 PM   #42
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Obama added more to the debt than anyone before. Conservatives said it was terrible, liberals were not concerned.
Most of that was inherited from Bush and some the result of Obama tax cuts. Obama did a good job of reducing the deficit and as a percentage of debt increase was better than Bush 43 or Reagan.

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Here's the difference...Trump is putting money in the pockets of huge numbers of Americans. Obama never came close to doing that.
You keep saying that but is it true? Impact of the tax cuts to average workers is pretty small and has to be offset with increases in household spending from health care, inflation etc...
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Old 06-11-2018, 03:42 PM   #43
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All the people saying that, are the same ones predicting that Hilary was going to win in a rout.
Actually I think I was reading about Republicans lamenting the self inflicted wound.

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We'll see how it plays out. There's an old political expression that goes, "it's about the economy, stupid". Trump wins on the economy. The GOP has the democrats on record saying they will work to repeal the GOP tax cuts. Let's see how receptive Americans are to having their paychecks cut.
You can repeal the tax cuts without impacting hard working Americans.

As for other news.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/will-th...arm-1528714800
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Old 06-11-2018, 03:53 PM   #44
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Most of that was inherited from Bush and some the result of Obama tax cuts. Obama did a good job of reducing the deficit and as a percentage of debt increase was better than Bush 43 or Reagan.


You keep saying that but is it true? Impact of the tax cuts to average workers is pretty small and has to be offset with increases in household spending from health care, inflation etc...
"Most of that was inherited from Bush and the democrat-controlled Congress, which writes the laws and crafts the budgets"

fixed it for you.

"and some the result of Obama tax cuts"

What tax cuts were those? How about Obamacare and the stimulus package?

"Obama did a good job of reducing the deficit and as a percentage of debt increase "

He had the highest deficits ever. He gets credit for the biggest deficits being his earliest years? Is the debt any different if his biggest deficit is in his first year or his last year?

"Impact of the tax cuts to average workers is pretty small"

True, but it's larger than the $0 tax cut we got under Obama.
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Old 06-11-2018, 04:36 PM   #45
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"Most of that was inherited from Bush and the democrat-controlled Congress, which writes the laws and crafts the budgets"

fixed it for you.
There you go again rewriting my post.

Republicans held the House, Senate and the Presidency for most of the years leading into the recession. By the time the Dems took the house at the end of Bush's second term the lot had been cast. It wasn't Dem spending it was a lack of revenue from the Bush recession that spiked the deficit which Obama inherited.

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What tax cuts were those? How about Obamacare and the stimulus package?
You weren't paying attention?

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-me...e-class-famil/

By some measures they say Obama's tax cuts could be bigger than Trump's.

[QUOTE]He had the highest deficits ever. He gets credit for the biggest deficits being his earliest years? Is the debt any different if his biggest deficit is in his first year or his last year?
The reason the fiscal year is offset from the election year is to give the incoming president time to make adjustments from their predecessor. The first year of your term, heck maybe even the second are pretty much fixed as to ability to influence the deficit.

So yes, there's a huge difference between the first and last years.

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True, but it's larger than the $0 tax cut we got under Obama.
See above.
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Old 06-11-2018, 05:11 PM   #46
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[QUOTE=spence;1144374]There you go again rewriting my post.

Republicans held the House, Senate and the Presidency for most of the years leading into the recession. By the time the Dems took the house at the end of Bush's second term the lot had been cast. It wasn't Dem spending it was a lack of revenue from the Bush recession that spiked the deficit which Obama inherited.


You weren't paying attention?

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-me...e-class-famil/

By some measures they say Obama's tax cuts could be bigger than Trump's.

Quote:
He had the highest deficits ever. He gets credit for the biggest deficits being his earliest years? Is the debt any different if his biggest deficit is in his first year or his last year?
The reason the fiscal year is offset from the election year is to give the incoming president time to make adjustments from their predecessor. The first year of your term, heck maybe even the second are pretty much fixed as to ability to influence the deficit.

So yes, there's a huge difference between the first and last years.


See above.
You got me, apparently I wasn’t paying attention, I didn’t see my cut, and apparently I received it. It wasn’t anywhere near larger than the recent gop tax cut.
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Old 06-11-2018, 05:25 PM   #47
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You got me, apparently I wasn’t paying attention, I didn’t see my cut, and apparently I received it. It wasn’t anywhere near larger than the recent gop tax cut.
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It was far bigger. You didn't "feel" it because Obama made the Bush tax cuts permanent rather than let them expire which he could have easily done.
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Old 06-11-2018, 05:46 PM   #48
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"the vast majority have self respect and earn their paycheck ... but they are not sharing in the profits of this recovery "

The 'vast majority' are not economically better off today than they were the day before Trump took the oath? How can you say that? More are working, wages are increasing (I posted a link showing that), everyone's tax rates are lower, and anyone who has money in the stock market is obviously better off?

How can you say the 'vast majority' aren't participating in the recovery?

"the mantra of business and the right is STFU and be thankfull you get a pay check at all"

I don't know any businesses or republicans who say anything like that.
How can I say ....because it's not happening crumbs don't equal a cake .. and your not paying attention to their message if you think that's not their message
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Old 06-11-2018, 05:52 PM   #49
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Well if you have 2 jobs available and only 1 person available to fill it, he's probably going to select the job with better pay/benefits. So the company that isn't recuiting enough people, better up their wages/benefits to attract people to their company, or risk a downturn in their business.
In a perfect world.. but that hasn't been the case
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Old 06-11-2018, 06:30 PM   #50
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I have an idea, let's call ourselves liberals and criticize something we used to praise because we don't like conservatives. It's a bad look guys. And it accomplishes nothing constructive. I understand it gives you purpose, but the smug act makes you look foolish to all but your clique.
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Old 06-11-2018, 07:18 PM   #51
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In a perfect world.. but that hasn't been the case
Sure it has, you just weren't paying attention.
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Old 06-11-2018, 09:05 PM   #52
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Who is on the board?
They cannot be self employed in most states
Mass rules
Massachusetts 2009
Chap. 112, Sec. 51.
Public Health Dental Hygienist:
Dental hygienist may provide services without the supervision of a dentist in public
health settings including, and not limited to, hospitals, medical facilities, schools and
community clinics. Prior to providing services, a public health dental hygienist must have
a written collaborative agreement with a local or state government agency or institution,
or licensed dentist that states the level of communication with the dental hygienist to
ensure patient health and safety. Public health dental hygienists shall provide patients
with a written referral to a dentist and an assessment of further dental needs.
Requirements: Dental hygienist must have at least 3 years of full-time clinical
experience practicing in a public health setting and any other training deemed
appropriate by the department of health.
Provider Services: Dental hygienist can provide full scope of dental hygiene practice
services allowed under general supervision in the private office, including prophylaxis,
root planing, curettage, sealants and fluoride.
Vt rules
Vermont 2008
Rule 10.2
General Supervision Agreement:
Dental hygienist may provide services in a school or institution under the supervision of
a dentist via a general supervision agreement. The agreement authorizes the dental
hygienist to provide services, agreed to between the dentist and the dental hygienist.
The agreement does not require physical presence of the dentist but it stipulates that
the supervising dentist review all patient records.
Requirements: Dental hygienist must have 3 years licensed clinical practice experience.
Provider Services: Dental hygienist can provide sealants, fluoride varnish, prophylaxis
and radiographs. Periodontal maintenance is allowable to patients with mild
periodontitis.
Your examples are government rules. Without government regulation and force, those rules could not exist. I've tried, time and again, to point to the connection between government and its crony private sector partners as our ultimate reason for problems of price and delivery of goods and services. You never seem to recognize government's part of the problem. Nor to understand that the government/business complex is not a free market. Yet you want to point to free market as not being viable. I gave an example of free market oriented medical service being far cheaper than the government/hospital cartel which dominates our health care. All you could do is mention some notion of vertical and horizontal generation being some benefit for business, yet such practices lead to monopolization and creation of the corporatist structure that you previously thought was responsible for high prices and the destruction of the middle class. You seem to pick and choose various contradictory notions as responses when it suits your argument.

Last edited by detbuch; 06-11-2018 at 09:12 PM..
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Old 06-11-2018, 09:33 PM   #53
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whats the point of having this shortage of works wink wink if wages dont go UP? you worry to much about thoses who you see getting a hand out ... when the vast majority have self respect and earn their paycheck ... but they are not sharing in the profits of this recovery .. the mantra of business and the right is STFU and be thankfull you get a pay check at all
Have you heard of the wage-price spiral?
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Old 06-12-2018, 07:36 AM   #54
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Sure it has, you just weren't paying attention.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device
Who wasn't paying attention? Real data contradicts your statement. Wage growth has been and continues to be low.

"The modest increase in annual raises would seem to defy Economics 101. The unemployment rate has been below 5% since May 2016. Many companies are having a hard time filling positions, particularly for skilled workers. Typically, when the demand for workers grows, wages go up.

One possible explanation: Older workers are retiring and being replaced by younger workers who earn less, which drags down the aggregate increase. Another factor: Many employers are no longer offering equal raises. "

https://www.kiplinger.com/article/bu...s-in-2018.html

also https://www.bloomberg.com/view/artic...-bigger-raises

Last edited by zimmy; 06-12-2018 at 07:44 AM..

No, no, no. we’re 30… 30, three zero.
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Old 06-12-2018, 08:01 AM   #55
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I have an idea, let's call ourselves liberals and criticize something we used to praise because we don't like conservatives. It's a bad look guys. And it accomplishes nothing constructive. I understand it gives you purpose, but the smug act makes you look foolish to all but your clique.
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You absolutely nailed it, that's all this is - liberals criticizing that which they praised for 8 years when Obama was POTUS.

From 2009 - 2016, it was awesome, and to the President's credit, when unemployment went down. From 2009 - 2016, it was awesome, and to the President's credit, when the stock market went up. And no one cared about adding to the debt. And no one cared that wages weren't increasing significantly.

Today, when unemployment is even lower, and the stock market is even higher, that's bad because now that the POTUS is a Republican, these things only help rich people and businesses. And suddenly, none of that means anything, unless wages increase meaningfully.

"the smug act makes you look foolish to all but your clique."

Bingo again. To say that there is zero, and I mean ZERO, intellectual honesty to liberalism, is an understatement. People are finally seeing this for what it is, which is why at this moment, the GOP controls everything in DC, and a huge majority of governorships and state legislatures.

We'll see what happens in the midterms, there could be a blue wave. Or maybe not. But as of right now, the democratic party is not a national party, it's a fringe group of radicals (who feel strongly that grown men should share public restrooms with 7 year-old girls), with strongholds on the two coasts, and zilch in between.

Their ideology only moves further to the left, never back towards the center. Their best hope, and it is a very realistic hope, is sufficient immigration.
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Old 06-12-2018, 08:08 AM   #56
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Your examples are government rules. Without government regulation and force, those rules could not exist. I've tried, time and again, to point to the connection between government and its crony private sector partners as our ultimate reason for problems of price and delivery of goods and services. You never seem to recognize government's part of the problem. Nor to understand that the government/business complex is not a free market. Yet you want to point to free market as not being viable. I gave an example of free market oriented medical service being far cheaper than the government/hospital cartel which dominates our health care. All you could do is mention some notion of vertical and horizontal generation being some benefit for business, yet such practices lead to monopolization and creation of the corporatist structure that you previously thought was responsible for high prices and the destruction of the middle class. You seem to pick and choose various contradictory notions as responses when it suits your argument.
I think there was a movie about the way things work that you propose and why it failed. If I remember correctly it was titled "The Gods must be crazy"

Frasier: Niles, I’ve just had the most marvelous idea for a website! People will post their opinions, cheeky bon mots, and insights, and others will reply in kind!

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Old 06-12-2018, 08:12 AM   #57
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Today, when unemployment is even lower, and the stock market is even higher, that's bad because now that the POTUS is a Republican, these things only help rich people and businesses. And suddenly, none of that means anything, unless wages increase meaningfully.

"the smug act makes you look foolish to all but your clique."

Bingo again. To say that there is zero, and I mean ZERO, intellectual honesty to liberalism, is an understatement.
You are totally, completely misinterpreting other peoples perspective because it makes you feel better about yourself.

The great irony is that the repubelicans supposedly hate deficits and complain about them until THEY are in power.

The economy, wages, the stock market, have been growing for almost a decade on a nearly even trajectory following near catastrophe, but now after 1 year of Trump policies, it is the best economy ever. How bout you have some intellectual honesty and see what the long term effects of his policies are before we puff our tail feathers.

No, no, no. we’re 30… 30, three zero.
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Old 06-12-2018, 08:23 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by detbuch View Post
Your examples are government rules. Without government regulation and force, those rules could not exist. I've tried, time and again, to point to the connection between government and its crony private sector partners as our ultimate reason for problems of price and delivery of goods and services. You never seem to recognize government's part of the problem.
I agree with you completely on this point, though I imagine you have a partisan slant. There is no free market. The repubelican party pretends they like free market, but the influence of big agriculture, big pharmacy, the energy sector on the republican politicians is a disaster. There are no free markets, only cronyism and the current leader may be the biggest, unapologetic crony capitalist of all time.

No, no, no. we’re 30… 30, three zero.
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Old 06-12-2018, 08:25 AM   #59
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Who wasn't paying attention? Real data contradicts your statement. Wage growth has been and continues to be low.

"The modest increase in annual raises would seem to defy Economics 101. The unemployment rate has been below 5% since May 2016. Many companies are having a hard time filling positions, particularly for skilled workers. Typically, when the demand for workers grows, wages go up.

One possible explanation: Older workers are retiring and being replaced by younger workers who earn less, which drags down the aggregate increase. Another factor: Many employers are no longer offering equal raises. "

https://www.kiplinger.com/article/bu...s-in-2018.html

also https://www.bloomberg.com/view/artic...-bigger-raises
1st raises and new job salaries are 2 different things. Once an employer hires you raises are not going to align with what new hires are going to receive as the demand increases

2nd this is from one of the articles you posted

“The first quarter of 2018 did see substantial compensation increases — an annualized rate of almost 4 percent.”

Which aligns with what we were saying about as the demand for skilled workers increases the compensation increases

3rd your post even reiterates what we said

“Typically, when the demand for workers grows, wages go up.”

And even gives a reason why it may be slow through this cycle. Inexperienced people, who do not command as high a salary, as the experienced people who are retiring did.

It also doesn’t happen immediately, the wage decrease that occurred when the dot-com bubble burst took a few years to correct itself and now developers are reaping increased compensation.
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Old 06-12-2018, 08:26 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by zimmy View Post
You are totally, completely misinterpreting other peoples perspective because it makes you feel better about yourself.

The great irony is that the repubelicans supposedly hate deficits and complain about them until THEY are in power.

The economy, wages, the stock market, have been growing for almost a decade on a nearly even trajectory following near catastrophe, but now after 1 year of Trump policies, it is the best economy ever. How bout you have some intellectual honesty and see what the long term effects of his policies are before we puff our tail feathers.
"You are totally, completely misinterpreting other peoples perspective "

I see. So when the same people who celebrated low unemployment and stock gains, are now deriding those things, I am just too stupid to see the acumen behind their genius. Gotcha.

"it makes you feel better about yourself. "

Wrong again. It just makes me sad, not better about myself.

"The great irony is that the repubelicans supposedly hate deficits and complain about them until THEY are in power. "

I could follow your lead and say that you are misinterpreting them, but you are right, the hypocrisy exists on both sides.

"The economy, wages, the stock market, have been growing for almost a decade "

And I have always given Obama credit for that.

"now after 1 year of Trump policies, it is the best economy ever."

Not the best ever. But using the same exact criteria that made the Obama economy a good economy (low unemployment, healthy stock returns), the Trump economy is better than what he inherited. Not the best ever, but better than Obama's. Try making that wrong - you can't, you just can't.

"How bout you have some intellectual honesty and see what the long term effects of his policies are before we puff our tail feathers"

again, hypocrisy. Liberals weren't waiting for long term impacts of Obama's policies before they declared him a great POTUS. You have very different standards for judging presidents, depending on which party they are in. I use the same standards, or at least try to.
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