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Old 08-22-2019, 07:59 PM   #241
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take the time to really listen with an open mind and not a snarky biased attitude and you may be enlightened because what you are supporting is lazy. Problems don't just go away by writing a law banning an object.





like he says, it is a cultural problem and if you don't think so, you are kidding yourself.

The United States Constitution does not exist to grant you rights; those rights are inherent within you. Rather it exists to frame a limited government so that those natural rights can be exercised freely.

1984 was a warning, not a guidebook!
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Old 08-22-2019, 11:37 PM   #242
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No you missed my original point, So how does he or anyone win that very pointed question, they canít unless they need those loopholes to secure those arms. So RR and others spew the usual NRA talking points, itís an old argument, but explain to me the harm done by the background checks and closing loopholes?
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oh no, I got it and it was dumb...you should read this...you are barking up the wrong tree with your talking points


https://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion/...wyN/story.html
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Old 08-23-2019, 04:15 AM   #243
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And the spring from which your incorrect ideas flow, has been discovered. You are so profoundly backwards in your thinking I realize now it is probably useless to even try to correct you. How does your position mesh with the 10th Amendment?

I'll state my argument anyway, just for those who might be interested.

The specific enumeration of powers in the Constitution limits the powers of the government . . . IOW, the feds can only do what the Constitution says it can do.


If it ain't there it can not be done!


That correct "singular truth" was the main reason the Federalists opposed adding a bill of rights to the Constitution. They believed it was dangerous to add declarations that things shall not be done when no power was ever granted to do those things . . . that it was absurd to provide against the abuse of an authority which was ever granted to government!*

They also argued that the attempt to list rights was not only impossible, it was also dangerous. Our rights are innumerable, they are everything not conferred to government through the Constitution and someone, someday might assume and argue that that was the entire list of rights and something not listed was actually under the domain of government.

Of course the Federalists "lost" the argument and a bill of rights was added but Madison, being a Federalist, composed and proposed two provisions that codified Federalist argument against the bill of rights into the Constitution. They became the 9th and 10th Amendments:
Amendment IX
The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

Amendment X
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

Do you recognize how profoundly wrong your thinking is?






* Federalist 84, arguing against adding a bill of rights:
"I . . . affirm that bills of rights, in the sense and to the extent in which they are contended for, are not only unnecessary in the proposed Constitution, but would even be dangerous. They would contain various exceptions to powers not granted; and, on this very account, would afford a colorable pretext to claim more than were granted. For why declare that things shall not be done which there is no power to do? Why, for instance, should it be said that the liberty of the press shall not be restrained, when no power is given by which restrictions may be imposed? I will not contend that such a provision would confer a regulating power; but it is evident that it would furnish, to men disposed to usurp, a plausible pretense for claiming that power. They might urge with a semblance of reason, that the Constitution ought not to be charged with the absurdity of providing against the abuse of an authority which was not given, and that the provision against restraining the liberty of the press afforded a clear implication, that a power to prescribe proper regulations concerning it was intended to be vested in the national government. This may serve as a specimen of the numerous handles which would be given to the doctrine of constructive powers, by the indulgence of an injudicious zeal for bills of rights."


.
Join the your wrong I am right club.. we get that alot from 2a guys.. its a typical response along with long theorize responses ..

Just the kind of people you can never have a conversation with..
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Old 08-23-2019, 04:20 AM   #244
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And the absurdity of you arguing that the 2nd Amendment right to arms is cemented in the 18th Century by using the 1st Amendment secured right to hit keys on an electronic device and sending the words across time and space on waves of light and having them appear on my screen, is lost on you.

Please rewrite your message using quill pen on parchment and give it to a postal worker and have him deliver it to me on horseback.
Seems you've missed the point.. i wont waste time explaining it to you.. you already got it figured out
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Old 08-23-2019, 05:22 AM   #245
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Join the your wrong I am right club..

Just the kind of people you can never have a conversation with..

size=1]Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device[/size]
there's a lot to love here
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Old 08-23-2019, 06:16 AM   #246
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oh no, I got it and it was dumb...you should read this...you are barking up the wrong tree with your talking points


https://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion/...wyN/story.html
You and RR take a page right out of Trump's playbook, can't win one argument, move to distraction and another direction. Did my post say I was suggesting background checks and closing show and private sale loopholes was going to end mass shooting? NO it didn't, my point was made and in response to RR's distraction, I asked why those simple changes (which the majority of the country) would impact your 2A rights. They don't of course, so distraction time, cut and paste time, same old arguments. OMG were all coming for your guns, this is just the first step.
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Old 08-23-2019, 08:00 AM   #247
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No you missed my original point, in that yet another mass shooting gets Trump talking momentarily about universal background checks, only to reverse course on talking to the NRA,
Trump is a dealmaker who goes into any discussion where differences are apparent with the assumption that the other side is honest and wants to solve the immediate problem. Anti-gunners can not be afforded such confidence. There are plenty of reforms and changes that can be done to make the background check better but they will be sacrificed on the altar of poking a stick in the eye of legal gun owners and their evil overlords, the NRA.

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which prompted the usual NRA talking points by RR.
Those "talking points" are direct attacks on your positions and beliefs, exposing them to be deficient, unworkable and usually unconstitutional. I realize and understand why you feel compelled to dismiss and ignore my arguments but please know, your inability and/or incapability to rebut my position or defend your position speaks louder than your diversionary bleats and whines about talking points.

There's a lot to find disgusting and detestable in leftist, statist authoritarian anti-gun arguments but the worst is that you feel you don't need to defend your positions and that's OK . . . Truth is, you can't defend them; such is the flaw in positions held as emotional constructs. A position that the holder is unwilling or incapable of defending, is hardly worth any respect or consideration in the debate over public policy enactments.

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So RR and others spew the usual NRA talking points, itís an old argument, but explain to me the harm done by the background checks and closing loopholes?
That you hold the Constitution and liberty principles in such disdain sure is cutting edge and novel; no wonder you think my points are old. Sorry, the Constitution doesn't change like liberals think it does and yes, the arguments that oppose what you promote don't vary too much over the years . . . They don't need to. The same late 18th century arguments in opposition to the King's edicts still apply to the proposals of today's statist authoritarian left.

That you have such a short attention span, that you can't comprehend anything longer than a few short sentences, demonstrates you will never "get" what the core of the argument is. Thus, you are dismissed as a complete waste of time and energy.



Allowing an illegal border crosser to stay in the US with amnesty and start the legal immigration process
is like allowing a bank robber to go free and keep the money as long as he fills out a loan application.
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Old 08-23-2019, 08:23 AM   #248
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Join the your wrong I am right club.. we get that alot from 2a guys.
And yet you slog on, dismissing the corrective information, content that the positions and beliefs you "feel" are correct (thus are content to refuse to defend) are absolutely factually correct. Problem is, they aren't. . .

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its a typical response along with long theorize responses ..


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Just the kind of people you can never have a conversation with.
Well, when you can't even acknowledge that the base "conversation" is governed by a set of rules, it's hard to have any structure or arrive at any consensus. You dismiss the Constitution as having any effect on your ideas, the singular directing force for you is opinion, based in emotion, divorced from principle. You react to challenges to defend your policy positions as a personal attack on your feelings which is why you find it impossible to have an intelligent, reasoned conversation.

.

Last edited by ReelinRod; 08-23-2019 at 08:29 AM..



Allowing an illegal border crosser to stay in the US with amnesty and start the legal immigration process
is like allowing a bank robber to go free and keep the money as long as he fills out a loan application.
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Old 08-23-2019, 10:36 AM   #249
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[QUOTE=ReelinRod;1172789
Well, when you can't even acknowledge that the base "conversation" is governed by a set of rules, it's hard to have any structure or arrive at any consensus. You dismiss the Constitution as having any effect on your ideas, the singular directing force for you is opinion, based in emotion, divorced from principle. You react to challenges to defend your policy positions as a personal attack on your feelings which is why you find it impossible to have an intelligent, reasoned conversation.

.[/QUOTE]

This is the critical distinction between the positions held on both sides of the argument. One side is based on a set of fundamental rules and principles, the other on transitory opinions that seem right for the moment.

Got Stripers, for instance, cannot understand why someone could object to a solution that would not harm the ability to lawfully own a gun. But he does not understand that there are principles that can be harmed by that solution.

It's similar to the idea of wondering what real harm there would be in having sex with others to whom you are not married. You can still love your wife or husband, still provide, give comfort and passion, raise children, be companions for life, and cooperate in building a home and life together. Aren't those the real, meaningful reasons to get married? There are folks who understand that and have "open" marriages.

But, on the other hand, is it necessary to marry in order to do those things? If there is no actual harm in so called infidelity, what is the point of having fidelity? What is the point of having marriage?

I suppose that the point would be determined by those who do it. But there will always be a point. A reason. A principle. All things, material or imaginary are based, for humans, on a principle. Otherwise they would not actually exist, not be comprehensible to the human mind.

Transitory opinions may be based on some principle such as carpe diem. And therein lies the problem of applying that principle to society as a whole. To have a society, a community, a nation, the principles must be lasting, structurally foundational rather than quicksand. That is they becomes rules. Laws. Rule of law.

For there to be such a thing as "marriage," it must be founded on some principle. "Marriage" is merely the name we give to the realization of that principle. And if our definition of "marriage" requires fidelity, and if we stray from that principle, in effect we have destroyed it, and the name has no meaning. So then it no longer exists.

And so, what is the rule, the principle, that we stray from when we apply the principle of "no harm" on the ability to legally own something if we impose various regulations on those for whom it is not necessary, nor constitutional, to do so merely because it would not harm their ability to own that thing legally in terms of a law we create?

Simply put we destroy the principles on which this nation was founded. We will still seem to have a nation, but really more of a mirage of one. An uncertain, vague, undefined one whose principles are no longer fundamental. No longer lasting. They are quicksand. They are transitory opinions which, as in this case as pointed out by Scott's post, are not founded on solid reality. They are desperate attempts at "solutions" which only further erode what is left of original principles and lead us into the rule by the few, whose motives we ultimately do not know.
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Old 08-23-2019, 11:11 AM   #250
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And all you ever do is pontificate and spew until somebody challenges you and then to resort to personal attacks, red herrings and then finally, meek abandonment of the discussion . . . all mouth and no trousers.
I don't make personal attacks, they're just observations. As for my trousers, don't bait me into posting pics of my wardrobe, I assure you it's well appointed
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Old 08-23-2019, 11:12 AM   #251
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take the time to really listen with an open mind and not a snarky biased attitude and you may be enlightened because what you are supporting is lazy. Problems don't just go away by writing a law banning an object.
I don't know anyone who thinks the problem will go away, it's a complex issue with easy access to military weapons being only one facet.
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Old 08-23-2019, 11:14 AM   #252
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Bob, gun shows and private sales are not loopholes, you are being mislead plain and simple.
It depends on the state but there certainly is a loophole.
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Old 08-23-2019, 11:23 AM   #253
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This is the critical distinction between the positions held on both sides of the argument. One side is based on a set of fundamental rules and principles, the other on transitory opinions that seem right for the moment.
And that such transitory opinion is the basis for public policy is the hallmark of Progessivism. That's why they focus on "values" instead of "principles". Having "values" allows one to feel certain things to be true; problem is, a tenet of Liberal / Progressive "values" ideology is that at any time those "truths" may become "untrue" because new heartstrings have been tugged. This constant flux, this forced infirmity is of course frustrating (mostly on a subconscious level) and leads to anger when one is pressed to defend their positions.

Since the support for their policy positions are held as emotional constructs, any challenge to defend their policy positions as logical or legal constructs is perceived as a personal attack on "feelings" and is responded to with vitriol and derision. One only receives white-hot indignation that you would have the gall to even stand up and question them.

That's what is so amusing, their intelligence and authority on issues really only exists in leftist echo chambers where they can congratulate each other for being so enlightened and now, "woke". Their proposals rarely survive full exposure and open discussion. Such examination and explanation and demands for defense is rejected out of hand, there is no consideration of it -- cause you know, it is just old "talking points" (which really means they have for years enjoyed evading and avoiding rebutting those points LOL).

This explains why Liberals / Progressives are at their core, such an angry bunch; they just can not handle people who disagree with them. Projection of their anger is a major component of their interaction which is why simple civil debate / discussion (or "conversation" as it has been called here) is utterly impossible.

.



Allowing an illegal border crosser to stay in the US with amnesty and start the legal immigration process
is like allowing a bank robber to go free and keep the money as long as he fills out a loan application.
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Old 08-23-2019, 11:43 AM   #254
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I don't know anyone who thinks the problem will go away, it's a complex issue with easy access to military weapons being only one facet.
well if you stop calling them military weapons, you can make progress in a discussion

The United States Constitution does not exist to grant you rights; those rights are inherent within you. Rather it exists to frame a limited government so that those natural rights can be exercised freely.

1984 was a warning, not a guidebook!
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Old 08-23-2019, 12:23 PM   #255
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well if you stop calling them military weapons, you can make progress in a discussion

Ever the optimist!

As if duplicitousness and misrepresentation will ever be set-aside by the left, as their core foundation for "discussing" guns and gun control.



Allowing an illegal border crosser to stay in the US with amnesty and start the legal immigration process
is like allowing a bank robber to go free and keep the money as long as he fills out a loan application.
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Old 08-23-2019, 01:44 PM   #256
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And yet you slog on, dismissing the corrective information, content that the positions and beliefs you "feel" are correct (thus are content to refuse to defend) are absolutely factually correct. Problem is, they aren't. . .







Well, when you can't even acknowledge that the base "conversation" is governed by a set of rules, it's hard to have any structure or arrive at any consensus. You dismiss the Constitution as having any effect on your ideas, the singular directing force for you is opinion, based in emotion, divorced from principle. You react to challenges to defend your policy positions as a personal attack on your feelings which is why you find it impossible to have an intelligent, reasoned conversation.

.
You dismiss the Constitution as having any effect on your ideas

No .. I dont hide behind it like yourself...making interpretations that only a grandeious few see.. all in a defense in a selfish claim that owning any weapon is a Right.

Ive said it 100 times have no issues with owing a gun .. I take issue with the i can have any gun mantra or any regulations lead to confiscation .. help find the common ground or the common ground will found for you...
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Old 08-23-2019, 02:32 PM   #257
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Trump is a dealmaker who goes into any discussion where differences are apparent with the assumption that the other side is honest and wants to solve the immediate problem. Anti-gunners can not be afforded such confidence. There are plenty of reforms and changes that can be done to make the background check better but they will be sacrificed on the altar of poking a stick in the eye of legal gun owners and their evil overlords, the NRA.



Those "talking points" are direct attacks on your positions and beliefs, exposing them to be deficient, unworkable and usually unconstitutional. I realize and understand why you feel compelled to dismiss and ignore my arguments but please know, your inability and/or incapability to rebut my position or defend your position speaks louder than your diversionary bleats and whines about talking points.

There's a lot to find disgusting and detestable in leftist, statist authoritarian anti-gun arguments but the worst is that you feel you don't need to defend your positions and that's OK . . . Truth is, you can't defend them; such is the flaw in positions held as emotional constructs. A position that the holder is unwilling or incapable of defending, is hardly worth any respect or consideration in the debate over public policy enactments.



That you hold the Constitution and liberty principles in such disdain sure is cutting edge and novel; no wonder you think my points are old. Sorry, the Constitution doesn't change like liberals think it does and yes, the arguments that oppose what you promote don't vary too much over the years . . . They don't need to. The same late 18th century arguments in opposition to the King's edicts still apply to the proposals of today's statist authoritarian left.

That you have such a short attention span, that you can't comprehend anything longer than a few short sentences, demonstrates you will never "get" what the core of the argument is. Thus, you are dismissed as a complete waste of time and energy.
Your cracking me up with your posts, I suggest the NRA got into Trumps head after he talked about getting better background checks in play and suddenly I have disdain for the constitution 🤣🤣🤣. So tell me why getting better background checks in place and closing any loopholes either impacts your rights to bear arms or why that makes sense to me suddenly makes me throw the constitution to the curb? DONíT go into why partisan politics makes that something that will be sacrificed at the alter (love the drama), you keep going off in a different direction to make your manifesto bold, but Iíd expect nothing less.
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Old 08-23-2019, 03:39 PM   #258
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Your cracking me up with your posts, I suggest the NRA got into Trumps head after he talked about getting better background checks in play and suddenly I have disdain for the constitution 🤣🤣🤣. So tell me why getting better background checks in place and closing any loopholes either impacts your rights to bear arms or why that makes sense to me suddenly makes me throw the constitution to the curb? DONíT go into why partisan politics makes that something that will be sacrificed at the alter (love the drama), you keep going off in a different direction to make your manifesto bold, but Iíd expect nothing less.
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I couldn't respond to him because I was laughing so hard. The principals and values line has been beaten to death. Tell that to the millions of "conservatives" who put faith in a POTUS who violates nearly everything they say they hold dear.
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Old 08-23-2019, 04:04 PM   #259
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grandeious

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you know that's not a word... right?
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Old 08-23-2019, 04:06 PM   #260
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Your cracking me up with your posts, I suggest the NRA got into Trumps head after he talked about getting better background checks in play and suddenly I have disdain for the constitution ������. So tell me why getting better background checks in place and closing any loopholes either impacts your rights to bear arms or why that makes sense to me suddenly makes me throw the constitution to the curb? DON’T go into why partisan politics makes that something that will be sacrificed at the alter (love the drama), you keep going off in a different direction to make your manifesto bold, but I’d expect nothing less.
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your call for checks, loopholes and such is a result of a few incidents which would not have been prevented if what you call for was in place....that's the objection and your constant repetition of the same words reveals your true motives and perhaps some senility
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Old 08-23-2019, 04:16 PM   #261
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your call for checks, loopholes and such is a result of a few incidents which would not have been prevented if what you call for was in place....that's the objection and your constant repetition of the same words reveals your true motives and perhaps some senility
Just another NRA talking point. Nothing can be done, move along...
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Old 08-23-2019, 05:25 PM   #262
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I wonder if most mass shootings could be avoided if a typical male (or female) could be able to afford to work a normal job and bring home enough income to support a family.
You see, most can not and kids are left on their own to their devices after shchool. Roll models and solid parenting are rare... things slip through the cracks and you end up with a psycho.

When I think of making America great again, thatís what I fantasize about. A stay at home parent raising solid kids with a solid education.

ďGun controlĒ will never stop someone from killing others.
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Old 08-23-2019, 05:26 PM   #263
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So predictable
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Old 08-23-2019, 05:42 PM   #264
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Just another NRA talking point. Nothing can be done, move along...
I don't own any guns, I'm not an NRA member and I don't receive talking points from them so stfu
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Old 08-23-2019, 05:48 PM   #265
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I wonder if most mass shootings could be avoided if a typical male (or female) could be able to afford to work a normal job and bring home enough income to support a family.
You see, most can not and kids are left on their own to their devices after shchool. Roll models and solid parenting are rare... things slip through the cracks and you end up with a psycho.

When I think of making America great again, thatís what I fantasize about. A stay at home parent raising solid kids with a solid education.

ďGun controlĒ will never stop someone from killing others.
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Common sense .

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Old 08-23-2019, 06:16 PM   #266
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I wonder if most mass shootings could be avoided if a typical male (or female) could be able to afford to work a normal job and bring home enough income to support a family.
You see, most can not and kids are left on their own to their devices after shchool. Roll models and solid parenting are rare... things slip through the cracks and you end up with a psycho.

When I think of making America great again, thatís what I fantasize about. A stay at home parent raising solid kids with a solid education.

ďGun controlĒ will never stop someone from killing others.
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Definitely a big piece of the puzzle.
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Old 08-23-2019, 07:59 PM   #267
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Definitely a big piece of the puzzle.
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Iím convinced it is. This is why we as a society need to embrace some democratic socialism and tax the ever living chit out of billionaires so that they pay their employees more to prevent themselves from entering that tax bracket. The democrats and republicans want everyone to think that this type of behavior doesnít work but they are being bribed by lobbyists and donors to provide that message.
The American masses are just simply being raped by the billionaires of this country and being duped into thinking all of their problems are because of the poor and immigrants. Itís sad I tell ya.

So there you go. Raise peopleís pay to bring back a solid family and thereís your gun control. (For the most part)
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Old 08-24-2019, 05:43 AM   #268
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I’m convinced it is. This is why we as a society need to embrace some democratic socialism and tax the ever living chit out of billionaires so that they pay their employees more to prevent themselves from entering that tax bracket. The democrats and republicans want everyone to think that this type of behavior doesn’t work but they are being bribed by lobbyists and donors to provide that message.
The American masses are just simply being raped by the billionaires of this country and being duped into thinking all of their problems are because of the poor and immigrants. It’s sad I tell ya.

So there you go. Raise people’s pay to bring back a solid family and there’s your gun control. (For the most part)
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knew that was where this was going

if you want to eliminate gun violence simply raise the minimum wage to $20 an hour and redistribute all the rich people's money...brilliant....free college and everyone's student loans forgiven would also help


I was reading a study or analysis of the el Paso shooter done by a college professor who said that he was motivated, as was the New Zealand killer, by fear that the planet was dying and that they had no futures because of pollution and over population...wonder where they got those ideas?...they were eco-terrorists...she tried to claim that these were simply examples of white nationalists using the environmental movement to further their desires because nobody in the environmental movement would ever hurt anyone....but the el Paso guy was a registered democrat and chose Walmart and the other Dayton guy was a democrat who loves Lizzy Warren .....weird

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Old 08-24-2019, 06:54 AM   #269
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I wonder if most mass shootings could be avoided if a typical male (or female) could be able to afford to work a normal job and bring home enough income to support a family.
You see, most can not and kids are left on their own to their devices after shchool. Roll models and solid parenting are rare... things slip through the cracks and you end up with a psycho.

When I think of making America great again, thatís what I fantasize about. A stay at home parent raising solid kids with a solid education.

ďGun controlĒ will never stop someone from killing others.
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Take this approach and then think about the amount of broken families,especially in the black community,and you get some insight as to why we are doomed.
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PRO CHOICE REPUBLICAN
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Old 08-24-2019, 08:35 AM   #270
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Take this approach and then think about the amount of broken families,especially in the black community,and you get some insight as to why we are doomed.
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Itís only doomed if you canít see the solution.
When you remove greed from the equation and substitute it with fairness solutions can become a reality.

The problem of course is when one mans idea of what is fair conflicts with anotherís...
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