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Political Threads This section is for Political Threads - Enter at your own risk. If you say you don't want to see what someone posts - don't read it :hihi:

 
 
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Old 08-25-2009, 11:19 AM   #31
Swimmer
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The only thing that bothers me about this story is that it did not remain a secret. The SOB that made it public should be in jail.

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Old 08-25-2009, 11:22 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RIROCKHOUND View Post
Is it claustrophobic underground?
What did your parents have to do?
I would have left you there


OF COURSE this was politically motivated, EVERYTHING that is not breaking news (i.e. released) FROM BOTH sides is timed for maximum efficiency. it is unfortunate that these games get played, but it doesn't change the story, it only changes the context of WHEN it was released.
Brian, I'm sure your smart enough to understand what I meant. (FYI, I never said you were an idiot, that's your fabrication.) You would do whatever it takes to save your child. Am I wrong? It's a simple yes or no answer. Would you threaten someone? Would you put a gun to their head? YES or NO

A political witch hunt that will hurt our national security is not my idea of the "moral highground". Is it yours?
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Old 08-25-2009, 11:27 AM   #33
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None of us are idiots. Just playing with your words a bit.. I think you referred to liberals as idiots many moons ago... thats the quote, not me personally...

of course it is yes, but they still have not shown that ANY of this works to get credible information, so why do we continue to do it and hurt our credibility with the rest of the non-terrorist world...

That being said, do I believe there are always people willing to do anything? yes. Is that a bad thing, no, BUT it is a very fine line to walk.

My worry is where does it lead, and whats next? This stuff being done to the wrong person? Americans? Not a big deal, if it saves 100 lives, ends justify the means etc.. is not a the only answer to me...

Bryan

Originally Posted by #^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&
"For once I agree with Spence. UGH. I just hope I don't get the urge to go start buying armani suits to wear in my shop"
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Old 08-25-2009, 11:40 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by Swimmer View Post
The only thing that bothers me about this story is that it did not remain a secret. The SOB that made it public should be in jail.
jail's to good for him.............

he should be air dropped with a parachute in the middle of the Serengeti....
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Old 08-25-2009, 01:19 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by EarnedStripes44 View Post
Over my head; what do you mean "not interested in what was working 70 years ago?".
Sorry, I should have made it clear that in this sentence I was referring to one of Spence's responses in another thread.
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Old 08-25-2009, 01:25 PM   #36
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I agree with you Brian, Where do you draw the line? I'm going to let people more knowledgable then me (insert joke here) make that decision. My problem is rehashing this won't do any of us any good, will hurt moral at the CIA, cost millions and millions, act as a distraction, and divide an already divided country. What we know now is that our new methods are to treat terrorist with the respect and dignity they deserve. I feel so much safer now.
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Old 08-25-2009, 01:37 PM   #37
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[QUOTE=spence;707437]What I find so interesting is that those who claim to hold their principals highest (i.e. the rule of law) also seem to be the first to cast them aside when it suits their interests.

I find interesting the construction "those who . . . also". I have no idea nor evidence that the CIA interrogators hold the rule of law as their highest principle. On the contrary, they may hold the security of the citizens of this country as a higher principle. Nor do I find evidence that, if they have cast any principles aside, that they are the first to do it. Nor do I find any evidence that the vast majority of U.S. citizens, nor any large number of citizens of this planet, hold the rule of law as their highest principle.

We can't defend our freedoms if we have not foundation from which to fight. Always believing that the ends justify the means makes us just like them...-spence[QUOTE]

We do not "always" believe that the ends justify the means, but at some critical times, they very well may. If we do not believe our way of life, our citizenry, are no more valuable to us than those who would destroy us, if we are not willing to defend our existence with the utmost ferocity, our world may well not end with a bang, but a whimper.
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Old 08-25-2009, 01:48 PM   #38
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IDIOT

A person having a mentel age of less then 3 years old.

A stupid or foolish person.

Someone fitting the discription above would be considered an IDIOT.

Since the word is used quite frequently in this forum I thought it a good idea to put the definition.
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Old 08-25-2009, 02:34 PM   #39
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This argument isn't about the timing of the release.

It's about the obvious duplicity that undermines our real objectives.

And for being weak, it takes a far stronger person to live by their own word.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device
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Old 08-25-2009, 04:40 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by spence View Post
This argument isn't about the timing of the release.

It's about the obvious duplicity that undermines our real objectives.

And for being weak, it takes a far stronger person to live by their own word.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device
Hmmm... I guess it would take a lot of strength to stick to your beliefs, and not do everything in your power to stop/prevent a terrorist act. I know I don't have, or want that kind of strength. I was raised that when you see someone in need you help them, when you see someone being hurt, you stop those hurting them.. Even if it means you may just add your name to the list of those being hurt, you have to do all you can to stop or prevent it.

Maybe I'm the one who's morally wrong, but even if some scumbag had a relative of yours (child, mother, sister...) and we had his partner in crime... I would get the information out of scumbag #2, no matter what, to save your relative.

So put that on a bigger scale,, just think what I would do to get info from a terrorist to save thousands of peoples relatives...

And did I read that right earlier, that you think those photos are faked, or fabricated? I have seen 5 or 6 similar videos of these "be headings" and they are not faked or fabricated.
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Old 08-25-2009, 06:31 PM   #41
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You hit the nail on the head Cool Beans.
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Old 08-25-2009, 07:41 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by PaulS View Post
and why do you hate America so much that you'll throw 230 years of having the moral high ground away to be like a bunch of POS terrorists.
I thought we had already lost the moral high ground when Bush invaded Iraq. Actually, the left has been saying for at least 40 years that we are morally inferior because of how we treat the poor, minorities, homosexuals, illegals (oops--undocumented aliens), the incarcerated, the uninsured, the hypocrisy of the religious right and Fox news, and right-wing radio, and our damned sense of exceptionalism. It's news to me that because of these CIA interrogations we are NOW in danger of losing the moral high ground.

Last edited by detbuch; 08-25-2009 at 08:39 PM..
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Old 08-25-2009, 08:28 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by spence View Post
This argument isn't about the timing of the release.

To which argument are you referring. There is certainly an argument about the timing of a release which many feel shouldn't be released.

It's about the obvious duplicity that undermines our real objectives.

And which code need I use to translate that sentence?


And for being weak, it takes a far stronger person to live by their own word.
I'm not sure to which "word" you refer. If you mean "the rule of law", I believe that any law, domestic or international, that equates to suicide is, to quote #^&#^&#^&#^&ens' Mr. Bumble, that "law is a ass, a idiot."

Furthermore, the rule of law applies to an agreed upon social contract. Those that fall outside the purview of that contract have no claim to any of its rules. And if some Pols insert such a rule that endangers the society that created the contract, then that rule IS A ASS, A IDIOT and needs to be repealed.

Furthermore, in reference to your "those who claim to hold their principals highest (i.e. the rule of law)"-- the prime principle is to exist, without which there can be no other principles. The next principle is to propagate. From these principles it may follow that, to ensure them and to gain the best existence, there should be a rule of law. If a rule of law violates the prime principles, it is a contradiction--A ASS, A IDIOT. If the "terrorists" wish to enter a contract with us to harmoniously exist and propagate, and if they wish to abide by that contract, the rules of law can be drawn. If they wish to deny our existence, any rules to accomodate them are ASSES AND IDIOTS. And interrogation techniques applied to those outside the purview of our social contract should adhere to the highest or PRIME principle, not to our rules of law.

Last edited by detbuch; 08-26-2009 at 12:11 PM.. Reason: typos and to add further explanation.
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Old 08-25-2009, 10:15 PM   #44
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America has never had the moral highground. Are you kidding me, ask the Indians or the Mexicans or the Spainish or the Phillipine. We have slaughtered more than our fair share of innocents throughout history. Locally think about the 4000 woman and children of the Narragansett Indian tribe that the PILGRIMS wipped out during the King Phillip War in the Great Swamp massacare. They tribe was even in the fight. The US has lots of blood on its hands. What I am saying is the war is horrible, just horrible. The things men do. Hopeless.
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Old 08-27-2009, 09:45 AM   #45
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I have no problems with good people doing bad things to bad people, as long as its hidden from the public eye and it gets valuable intel for our national security. Its a joke that the govt announces all we do is fake beatings, and empty threats, on dirtbags that would do HORRIBLE things to our friends and family if given the chance. This country is getting more and more limp wristed, what about just drawing a picture of Allah humping a camel, is that torture? I dont think so, but if you did, surer that shi'ite, there would be muslims stampeding old people to get in front of cameras, in some village that just got running water, holding burning american flags. Thats the mentality we have to deal with, and Obama says ask them questions in a soothing manner. I call BS.

Last edited by Bocephus; 08-27-2009 at 09:45 AM.. Reason: edit
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Old 08-27-2009, 12:26 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by Cool Beans View Post
Hmmm... I guess it would take a lot of strength to stick to your beliefs, and not do everything in your power to stop/prevent a terrorist act.

Maybe I'm the one who's morally wrong, but even if some scumbag had a relative of yours (child, mother, sister...) and we had his partner in crime... I would get the information out of scumbag #2, no matter what, to save your relative.

So put that on a bigger scale,, just think what I would do to get info from a terrorist to save thousands of peoples relatives...
You're making it sound like we have no options at our disposal to interrogate terrorists, when in fact quite the opposite is true. The information released to date appears to indicate that the vast majority of high-value intel has been gained through perfectly legal methods.

Your willingness to abandon your beliefs on the slim chance that it might help seems odd.

Why have them in the first place?

Quote:
And did I read that right earlier, that you think those photos are faked, or fabricated?
No.

-spence
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Old 08-27-2009, 12:29 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by Duke41 View Post
America has never had the moral highground. Are you kidding me, ask the Indians or the Mexicans or the Spainish or the Phillipine. We have slaughtered more than our fair share of innocents throughout history. Locally think about the 4000 woman and children of the Narragansett Indian tribe that the PILGRIMS wipped out during the King Phillip War in the Great Swamp massacare. They tribe was even in the fight. The US has lots of blood on its hands. What I am saying is the war is horrible, just horrible. The things men do. Hopeless.
This is nonsense. People around the world have long looked to the unique thing that is the USA as a source of inspiration.

-spence
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Old 08-27-2009, 12:58 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by detbuch View Post
It's about the obvious duplicity that undermines our real objectives.

And which code need I use to translate that sentence?
No code, it should be quite obvious.

Bush set forth a long-term security strategy based on the assumptions that democratic states are generally more stable, all people want to be free, and that the world "needs" our leadership to help them get there.

I think we'd all agree that the rule of law is a cornerstone element to a stable, democratic society.

By compromising our own values, or violating our own laws or International treaties, we tarnish the very basis of our own argument.

This is glaringly obvious to those who we wish to influence, and therefore quite counter productive.

-spence
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Old 08-27-2009, 01:06 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by Bocephus View Post
I have no problems with good people doing bad things to bad people, as long as its hidden from the public eye and it gets valuable intel for our national security. Its a joke that the govt announces all we do is fake beatings, and empty threats, on dirtbags that would do HORRIBLE things to our friends and family if given the chance. This country is getting more and more limp wristed, what about just drawing a picture of Allah humping a camel, is that torture? I dont think so, but if you did, surer that shi'ite, there would be muslims stampeding old people to get in front of cameras, in some village that just got running water, holding burning american flags. Thats the mentality we have to deal with, and Obama says ask them questions in a soothing manner. I call BS.
This seems to be the prevailing attitude among many of your peers.

My summary...

Two wrongs do indeed make a right.

The ends always justify the means.

Unless we're willing to do anything, then we're doing nothing.

And...if a tree falls in the woods, and nobody is there to hear it, it definitely does not make any noise

Am I missing anything?

-spence
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Old 08-27-2009, 01:12 PM   #50
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Am I missing anything?

-spence
common sense and stones .....
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Old 08-27-2009, 01:17 PM   #51
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This political ploy, which I'm sure was Rahm Emanuel's idea, is doing
nothing but dividing our people even more.

Pinetta is totally against it because he knows it will tie the hands and cause the CIA to be looking over their shoulder in gathering Intel.
Meantime the terrorists are laughing all the way to their next attack
on innocents.

We are not talking about uniformed soldiers fighting on a battle field,
but people wanting to kill anybody they consider an infidel anyway they can.

Try another way, Emanuel, to distract us from
the insane spending, stimulus, cap and trade and HC.
In most cases the American people are on to you, imo.

" Choose Life "
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Old 08-27-2009, 06:41 PM   #52
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This is nonsense. People around the world have long looked to the unique thing that is the USA as a source of inspiration.

-spence
We have long inspired them because we were successful, rich, powerful, and free, not because we slavishly followed a suicidal rule to accomodate murderous thugs who terrorize the world and wish to destroy us. Had we done the latter we would not have existed long enough to achieve the former, and, rather than being an inspiration, we would have been a foolish laughing stock.
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Old 08-27-2009, 07:00 PM   #53
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We have long inspired them because we were successful, rich, powerful, and free, not because we slavishly followed a suicidal rule to accomodate murderous thugs who terrorize the world and wish to destroy us. Had we done the latter we would not have existed long enough to achieve the former, and, rather than being an inspiration, we would have been a foolish laughing stock.
Did you ever think the a key reason we are "successful, rich, powerful and free" is precisely because we've upheld a higher standard?

Granted the US has never been perfect, but I think we'd all agree that even with our failures included we hold the bar much higher than any other nation. Out legal system isn't perfect, but it's hands down the best in the world.

Some seem to think that any criticism of the US is anti, where as at times, when appropriate it's necessary course correction.

Two good aphorisms from F.M. Alexander...

"Everyone wants to be right, but no one stops to consider if their idea of right is right."

"If people will go on believing that they 'know', it is impossible to eradicate anything; it makes it impossible to teach them."

-spence
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Old 08-27-2009, 07:32 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by spence View Post
No code, it should be quite obvious.

Bush set forth a long-term security strategy based on the assumptions that democratic states are generally more stable, all people want to be free, and that the world "needs" our leadership to help them get there.

You had not mentioned Bush's policy. No way I can get that from "It's about the obvious duplicity that undermines our real objectives."


I think we'd all agree that the rule of law is a cornerstone element to a stable, democratic society.

By compromising our own values, or violating our own laws or International treaties, we tarnish the very basis of our own argument.

The rule of law IN GENERAL is "a cornerstone element" of our society. But not all SPECIFIC laws are condusive to that stability. Some laws are useless or outdated remnants. Some are rules that benefit special interests at the expense of others. Some are just stupid. And some can be destructive. We certainly have no international treaty with stateless terrorists. And the "rule of law", as I have said previosly in this thread, is not our highest principle. Our highest principle is to exist in the manner in which we were created--to preserve our life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness. And we neither compromise that, nor tarnish what we did in Irag by CIA type interrogations of those who wish to destroy the democracy we helped to establish in that country.

This is glaringly obvious to those who we wish to influence, and therefore quite counter productive.

-spence
What is glalringly obvious to others, is that we stubbornly remain the powerful, rich, free society, and they remain jealous. Although, those now "running" our country may wish to change that.
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Old 08-27-2009, 08:24 PM   #55
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Did you ever think the a key reason we are "successful, rich, powerful and free" is precisely because we've upheld a higher standard?-spence
The simple answer would be NO.

But, to ramble a bit, I would say that, in my hyper-idealistic youthful days, I may have thought something like that. But having experienced actual life since then, I am now of the opinion that higher ethical standards, admirable, useful, and wonderful as they are, are a luxury afforded us by our success, not a reason for that success. The raucus, hurly-burley of the making of this country, following the bloody battle to create and the wars to sustain and expand it were filled with other than highest ethical standards.

This also seems to apply to states throughout history. Other than religious, high ethical standards were created AFTER societies struggled to exist and were fully successful in doing so. The most powerful states, AFTER successfully becoming so, created great "rules of law," great art, impressive ethics, great philosophers, and, as they abandoned their prime principle to exist AGAINST ALL THAT WOULD DESTROY THEM, and became more covetous of the beauties they created than of the brutal power that enabled all they came to prefer, they were NEEDLESSLY defeated by lesser foes who possessed a greater conviction to win. Our special (exceptional, if you will) driving force and source of power, in my opinion, is our freedom. It is what we should covet with utmost ferocity against those who would take it from us.

Last edited by detbuch; 08-27-2009 at 08:31 PM.. Reason: typos
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Old 08-27-2009, 08:28 PM   #56
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You had not mentioned Bush's policy. No way I can get that from "It's about the obvious duplicity that undermines our real objectives."
My wife believes I have an autistic trait to assume others know what I'm thinking. Personally I do think that in the context of the discussion this was obvious. The incidents in question happened in 2004.

Quote:
The rule of law IN GENERAL is "a cornerstone element" of our society. But not all SPECIFIC laws are condusive to that stability. Some laws are useless or outdated remnants. Some are rules that benefit special interests at the expense of others. Some are just stupid. And some can be destructive.
There's a big difference between civil and criminal law, and I'd wager that that the majority of criminal law is as applicable today as it was when it was founded.

The laws we're generally talking about have to do with issues like human rights and torture. These I think have been pretty consistent this century...

Quote:
We certainly have no international treaty with stateless terrorists.
We establish laws that say torture is wrong, that establish rules of conduct based on ethics.

The limits are based on our morals, not theirs, as we are in control.

Quote:
And the "rule of law", as I have said previosly in this thread, is not our highest principle. Our highest principle is to exist in the manner in which we were created--to preserve our life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness. And we neither compromise that, nor tarnish what we did in Irag by CIA type interrogations of those who wish to destroy the democracy we helped to establish in that country.
This conflicts with two simple observations:

1) We are in a long-term struggle
2) If our policy undermines the basic premise (see above), it is by nature self defeating

Quote:
What is glalringly obvious to others, is that we stubbornly remain the powerful, rich, free society, and they remain jealous. Although, those now "running" our country may wish to change that.
How so? Admitting a course correction might be necessary could very well be a sign of strength to those we need to influence.

I'd note that the policy shifts towards North Korea look like they could possibly bear some fruit, and Obama's trip to the Mid East this spring might have very well influenced the power shift in Lebanon and the Green Revolution in Iran.

-spence
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Old 08-27-2009, 09:14 PM   #57
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[QUOTE=spence;707991]There's a big difference between civil and criminal law, and I'd wager that that the majority of criminal law is as applicable today as it was when it was founded.

I am not talking about the MAJORITY of laws.

The laws we're generally talking about have to do with issues like human rights and torture. These I think have been pretty consistent this century...

This century is only a bit more than 8 years old. Perhaps you mean the 20th. There were significant changes and additions then. For instance, U.N. laws on torture changed significantly from applying only to SIGNATORIES to the U. N. conventions to, uselessly, stupidly, self-destructively (in my opinion) to INCLUDE JUST ABOUT ANYBODY IN THE WORLD, signer or not, specifically to "outlaw" what you consider illegal CIA interrogations. By stupidly signing on to such a broad inclusion, you abdicate legal sovereignty to a fickle "World Court" that has no particular interest in the existence of the USA.

We establish laws that say torture is wrong, that establish rules of conduct based on ethics.

Our laws should apply only to those who are in the purview of our social contract. Torture of US citizens would be ethically wrong by those rules so long as those citizens are not engaged in some form of overthrow of our government.

The limits are based on our morals, not theirs, as we are in control.

Our morals are of no interest to "them." They have different morals and laugh at us as puny fools to offer them sanctity in morals they would destroy. And we deserve their scorn when we do so.

This conflicts with two simple observations:

1) We are in a long-term struggle
2) If our policy undermines the basic premise (see above), it is by nature self defeating

So far, I am not seeing in the history of the world, that ethics, rather than power, wins struggles. It has been reputed that RELIGIOUS fervor has, in times and places, changed the course of history. But in this "long-term struggle" it is our opponent who has that fervor, and we have all but abandoned it. Which policy, which basic premise?

How so? Admitting a course correction might be necessary could very well be a sign of strength to those we need to influence.

It could very well be a sign of weakness and a chink in what they hope is the eventual crumbling. Anyway (perhaps I have an autistic trait similar to yours)--in referring to those now running our country wishing to "change that", the "that" is the U.S. being an object of jealousy and the "change" would be us becoming just one of the guys in the fraternity of nations--no better, perhaps a little worse and required to apologize for our oppressions and transgressions.

I'd note that the policy shifts towards North Korea look like they could possibly bear some fruit, and Obama's trip to the Mid East this spring might have very well influenced the power shift in Lebanon and the Green Revolution in Iran.-spence[QUOTE]

How many policy shifts toward North Korea have born fruit? I must admit, I have forgotten what our latest policy is. I remember, in the past, our policies have eventually given NK fruit rather than bearing it. Power shift in Lebanon? From whom to whom? And, again, I'm not familiar with the Green Revolution in Iran.

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Old 08-27-2009, 10:11 PM   #58
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Philosopher; another name for dead man walking. Spense wistfully feels we should shield ourselves with Unicorns & Candycanes, rather than confront terror.

Spense, do you feel comfortable that others died so you can be safe & cozy philosophizing behind a key board that we should shift policy to gain a moral "superiority" and perhaps endanger US lives. When was the last time moral superiority stopped a bullet?

PS: At the next battle in Afghanistan, would you be so kind to speak with the dune coons-I mean Taliban...bring a basket for your head.

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Old 08-28-2009, 03:31 AM   #59
scottw
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[QUOTE=spence;707991]My wife believes I have an autistic trait to assume others know what I'm thinking.

what your wife means by autistic trait is that you are trapped in your own little world in your head, an alternative universe that you've created that is full of "most peoples" and "everybody's" and "some people's" to whom you've assigned traits and characteristics not necessarily based on reality but that will fit nicely or correspond to your world view, you continually rely on "truisms" that you've invented and are simply false but stated as fact before you wander off into some diatribe ....... you must drive her crazy...

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Old 08-28-2009, 06:56 AM   #60
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[QUOTE=scottw;708007]
Quote:
Originally Posted by spence View Post
My wife believes I have an autistic trait to assume others know what I'm thinking.

what your wife means by autistic trait is that you are trapped in your own little world in your head, an alternative universe that you've created that is full of "most peoples" and "everybody's" and "some people's" to whom you've assigned traits and characteristics not necessarily based on reality but that will fit nicely or correspond to your world view, you continually rely on "truisms" that you've invented and are simply false but stated as fact before you wander off into some diatribe ....... you must drive her crazy...
I really can't wait for your one thousandth post...figuring with all reasonable probability you'll have to add value to a thread sooner or later. Hell, even a thousand monkeys with typewriters.......

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