Tail hook thoughts

[stripermaineiac]

During Plugfest I noticed a large number of plug makers that were putting tags instead of hooks on the tails of their swimers. I mentioned this to a few of the other hardcores that i know and fish as much as I do.We pretty much agreed that while this may make some plugs swim a bit better it will deffinitely make hooking a fish that hits the tail of the plug impossible.
From my own experience with Atom P-40,dannys, Jr's,Darters and some oddball lures I've had a great many hook-ups on the tail hooks,both hooks and the center hooks. More times than not on the center but many times just one hook or the other.Included was a 53lb 11 oz on the tail hook of a large Danny and a 51lb 6oz on an Atom Jr on the tail hook and center hook ,which pulled as the fish rolled in the last wave and only the tail hook held. I would have never landed either fish without the tail hooks being in place.
My thought is that instead of going with out the tail hooks to make the plug swim better why not change the weight recipe of tinker with the design a bit so as the plug swims as it should with the tail hook.
Better than missing a nice fish due to the lack of a hook where one should be. I'm throwing this out there for discussion as it might be something to look at. Ron

[chefchris401]

Im a strong believer in tail hooks instead of flags/tags.

On my plugs I always use a siwash instead of tags. On my version of the cowboy I use one belly hook and one 6/0 siwash. Most of the fish came on the rear hook. Same deal with the larger danny I make, two trebles and a siwash.

As I do build my own plugs i will tinker with weights and hook placement just so i can use a siwash or even a treble in some applications. And to make sure the trebles arent going to foul, cause they only foul on the perfect cast.

[numbskull]

I don't like them. They snag eyeballs, snag you, puncture your waders, get caught in tubes, and make it easier for a fish to rub you off on the bottom and increase your ratio of small fish. Another problem is that until you get to 6/0's or better, there isn't a decent hook to use these days that won't bend under a heavy load (usually because when you get that far the front hooks have pulled and the fish is snagged outside the head by the tail hook). The old short shank O'Shaunghessys (how do you spell that?) were strong hooks, but these wide gap thin wire long point Swiashes are crap.

Big bass don't nibble at their food, they inhale it. I've fished a 3.5 oz Habs needle with skins nearly 2 feet long. One hook about 4 " from the nose. Usually I have to reach inside the fishes' mouth to unhook them. Bluefish are a different story, but dealing with thrashing bluefish and multiple trebles standing on a rock in the dark is not what I'm trying to accomplish.

The two occasions I think tail hooks are important are for plug balance and action (many plugs have a slower sexier action with a tail hook and darters can get skitish without them), and in current where fish often try to inhale the plug expecting the current to carry it back to them but your line prevents that from happening and they close on the tail. Another similar situation is trolling where the boat speed increases the number of misses. When plugging from shore at night the plug is usually going slow enough that a big fish isn't going to miss it and hit the tail.

Of course if I lost a 50lb fish because I thought I needed a tail hook, my opinion might change. But so far I've not had that chance.

[BigFish]

I have never missed a fish on my Danny with the tag on the rear and 2 belly trebles! Matter of fact over the past 6/7 years I have been building plugs of all of the photos I have taken I could not help but notice that 99.9% of the fish I have taken are all on the forward hook?? Be they pencils, swimmers or spooks.....all on the front treble. Bluefish take the tail but my experience is the bass take the head. The pictures are all the proof I need. I also agree with Numbscull.....they can and often do alot of additional damage to the fish. One of the gents on here removes the rear treble from my "Prey" swimmers and puts the bucktail tag on the rear in its place and fishes it with the single belly treble and he seems to take many large with it like that? Just my opinion that if you have 2 belly trebles.....you do not need the tail treble.

[a4scoot]

Since meeting Ol man Bob I have there is an alternative to having 3 hooks flailing around on a plug with a yellow eyed devil attached. A tag is olaced on the rear of a plug with two belly trebels so 1 a blue has less chance to hookup and when he does there are fewer hooks to deal with. The plug with 1 belly hook still gets a large swash with Bob dressing. Every thing is a compromise so maybe you get more fish with a rear trebel but w/o there is less chance of a hand with a plug attached. When the hits are every cast you dont need a lot of hooks to have fun but when you get one hit all nite you can't have too many hooks on that same plug.

[BigFish]

Also the best part is if someone does use my plugs...they can add a hook or remove a hook or customize how they fish certain plugs any way they want. We all like something different sometimes!

[Rockfish9]

Nummy pretty much echoed my thoughts....because I fish at night, slow is my montra, the tail hook works to keep that in check in most ( not all) cases...

as he said for the most part, big bass enhale their meal.... back before I carried a camera on board and everything went to the market, I had a 54lb bass enhale a goo goo eye that was being trolled on wire in the mouth of the river.... an average outgoing tide runs around 3 knots... I was crawling up against it.. this fish sucked in the plug and blew it out it's gills, how the plug made it by the rakers is a mystery to me.. the plug was imbedded in the back of the fishes skull....all three hooks...what that means I dont know.. a single hook would have been enough that night actualy no hook at all... 90% of my surface caught bass ( swimmers and poppers ) are caught on the front hook, the rear one, usualy acts as a gaff ...smaller fish tend to be the ones caught on the aft hooks...and I hate blue fish and would rather catch nothing... all that said.... I put rear hooks on most of my baits...

[Tagger]

favirote set up is 2 belly trebles and a flag .. I dropped the siwash tail hook ... Too many fish gaffed in the side or the eyeball with the dam thing ..

[PNG]

Originally Posted by Tagger

Too many fish gaffed in the side or the eyeball with the dam thing ..

x2+everyone else whom said the same. While I would be upset if I had and have dropped a biggy it wouldn't last long there's more out there...its just a fish. the big fish I have lost have been because of the siwash straightening. However some plugs need it so when I can not use one I dont

[Diggin Jiggin]

I usually go out of my way to avoid having more than 1 belly hook.
Almost every time I've ended up with a hook in me, its been unhooking a fish on a plug with 2 belly trebles.

Most of the tubes in my bag are narrow so a plug with a tail hook and 1 belly hook slide in with the belly hook hanging on the top of the tube. I think I've only got 3 spots forplugs with multiple belly hooks.

I decided to fish bigger plugs this year and most are set up with 2 belly hooks and need them to swim right. I'll probably end up doing 2 belly and a siwash tail. And now I think I need a bigger bag...

[Tagger]

do like a tail hook on a needle and a darter though and a spook .. I guess just metal lip flag .. ..

[Back Beach]

Originally Posted by stripermaineiac

From my own experience with Atom P-40,dannys, Jr's,Darters and some oddball lures I've had a great many hook-ups on the tail hooks,both hooks and the center hooks. More times than not on the center but many times just one hook or the other.Included was a 53lb 11 oz on the tail hook of a large Danny and a 51lb 6oz on an Atom Jr on the tail hook and center hook ,which pulled as the fish rolled in the last wave and only the tail hook held. I would have never landed either fish without the tail hooks being in place.

While the fish you and many others have landed with tail hooks stand as solid, anectdotal evidence, I believe many times the tail hook helps create a fulcrum by which the forward hooks eventually fail.

I, too, have landed many fish on the tail hook. I think what happens often times is the fish are hooked on the forward hooks and the tail hook swings around and becomes attached during battle and acts almost like a very small gaf. As the battle ensues, the "gaf" imbeds itself deeper and the smaller, weaker trebles sometimes become dislodged and eventually fall out or open up.

Veteran plug builders have advised me to spread the belly hooks as far as possible to prevent "arguments" between the sets of hooks.

[numbskull]

Originally Posted by Back Beach

Veteran plug builders have advised me to spread the belly hooks as far as possible to prevent "arguments" between the sets of hooks.

Actually, we do this because if the holes are too close together you can tell they're mis-drilled.

[Back Beach]

Originally Posted by numbskull

Actually, we do this because if the holes are too close together you can tell they're mis-drilled.

HA! On mine the front hooks actually look like pectoral fins so don't feel bad.

[Back Beach]

Originally Posted by Diggin Jiggin

And now I think I need a bigger bag...

I'm just thinking about how easy eel fishing is compared to this plug crap and wondering how long I'll stay with it....

[stripermaineiac]

Hi all, Love the inputs. Deffinetly food for thought.I'm still for the tail hooks myself, Most of mine are siwash. Either stainless or VMC's.
plus I tie my bucktail and flash on them. Which really does make a huge difference as those fishing around me have found out LOL.
I think as a 2 hook combo you can't beat it. 2 trebles on a Dannys and a tail hook can be iffy as if the spacing is too close or the hooks are too large they foul most of the time.same as with most plugs with 3 hooks.The ideas you all have put out will deffinitely give some of the younger fishermen and plug builders great info to make their own choices .Sharp hooks ang high quality hooks will make a big difference too.
Oh by the way Back Beach don't give up on the plugs yet. The last 2 yrs on the Vineyard during the Derby{all 5 weeks of it} I was only out fished by someone using eels once and that was because there was a scale on one of the hooks that spooked the fish. The rest of the time I averaged twice as many fish up to 14 to none.So don't throw the wood away trust me it works some sweet.

[Back Beach]

Oh yeah, just to clarify....I wouldn't advocate removing the rear siwash if its critical to the performance of the plug. My point was regarding what I think happens when a rear hook is employed, so its neither good nor bad to have one. If one is to employ a rear hook it should have a quantifiable benefit.

As for sticking with the plugs I'm all for it. Many nights I have to choose between carrying a bunch of stuff on a long walk and simplifying by fishing only with eels. Needless to say I'm not pressing a fully effective attack by omitting plugs on many occasions and fishing only eels...I should know better by know.

[eskimo]

I usually go with a flag for obvious reasons. if you have tandem belly hooks I feel that the siwash just pushes the line of 'one to many hooks'.
I think fish that are landed on just the tail hook were once on the belly hooks and worked their way off (not in all cases).

Also this might sound crazy but I always feel the rear hook on any surface plug (a needle also) gathers the most weed, because its dressed it tends to ride the surface on the retrieve in which grabs the floating weed.

Although sometimes I compensate with a tail weight I don't feel its a proper replacement (unlike the weight the hook is allowed to swing) so I will either taper the tail section or I will cut a siwash further down the shank for additional weight. The newer BM danny's are a good example of this because the tail section is a lot thicker.

[Old Man]

...trash me if you will but here's what I run...

...right or wrong ...here goes...

..I remove all hooks and use a 7/0 O'Shaughnessy on the tail...

...yeah ...yeah... I've heard it from the best of the best builders who I've swapped tail hooks for plugs with...."it ain't gonna run right"..."years of my testing and design down the tubes with what ya doing to my plug" ...... "will you put some hooks on that plug !!!"

...here's why...

...98% of my catching is either schoolies or blues...

...a long shank 7/0 makes for VERY easy removal of a blue from my toys...the needle nose pliers latches onto the shank and one twist and the blue is off and I'm casting again...none of the 15 minutes to get a treble back from the lock jaw of a blue..BTDT...ain't we all ???

..and the schoolies ? ...well... they gotta go back anyway and what a mess a treble can make of a schoolie ...much less two or three sets of hooks being pried out of a thrashing striper...

...do I miss many hits ? no ... do I care ?...no

...and my PB (30+) last spring at the canal was taken on a pikie...no belly hook ...one 7/0 on the tail.... AND it went back for somebody else to enjoy...


...that's my take....

...for those who build (as MOST here do) ...try your favorite plug...

...1. ..no hooks...see if it swims..
...2. ..one tail siwash or whatever...see if it swims..
...3. .. loaded up with all the hardware it will carry (or usually carries) ...and see the difference...you might be surprised..

..so much for my rant...

... Old Man aka Bob

...

[stripermaineiac]

MMMM Sounds like Roberts lures. I've landed a few nice stripers over 30 lb on them too. cast great into the wind too. Good way to go if it's what you want to do. But there have been way too many times that having one hook or the other missing has made a huge difference of hook ups, Same goes for a dressed tail hook. makes a difference when the fish are scarce or fussy.
Ron

[Mr. Krinkle]

Originally Posted by Back Beach

I'm just thinking about how easy eel fishing is compared to this plug crap and wondering how long I'll stay with it....

With all these plugs your making, i'd say your hooked! Ever since I started building I rarely fish eels, which is probably stupid.

I can honestly say that I have never caught a bass over 10lbs that has been caught on the tail hook that I can remember.

I fish one location that has an extremely fast current. While fishing this location, The rear treble has allowed me to catch a bunch of decent size bass, high teens to 30lbs, that I feel I would have not been able to land if the rear treble hadn't stuck them along the side of the body. I fish lures in this spot with rear trebles just for this reason.

[Ed White]

Front Hook = Bass!
Tail Hook = Blues!
Middle Hook = Me!

[wrikerjr]

I personally fish most of the plugs i build that have two treble's with a flag. Since i build most of the plugs i build it to fish with the tag.

I did three shows this winter and many customers asked me if i could add a siwash to the back of the plug right out of the package. It was not 1 or 2 people it was about 30% of the people i spoke to. Needless to say i added them. Just goes to show you there are many method's.

I like flags unless there is one belly hook then it a siwash but not everyone agrees and we all catch fish.

[7StripeStrike]

Anybody got some how to info on making tags?

[Pete F.]

Put an open loop in a piece of scrap plug wire. Leave the end long so you can stick it in a vise. tie bucktail or hackle on just like a siwash. cut off excess wire. Put over rear loop and close loop in tag wire. I do usually put some marks in wire with dikes so the flag won't slip off.

[wrikerjr]

Originally Posted by 7StripeStrike

Anybody got some how to info on making tags?

Some people use very cheap open end stainless steel screws and say its pretty easy. If you have the siwash already just snip it off and its a flag.