bad news for Big O

[RIJIMMY]

Originally Posted by JohnnyD

No one trusts the economy right now. The market is in a relative state of purgatory, consumers are saving more than spending. I don't think consumers will start spending until it appears things have actually improved. The continuing of terrible unemployment rates (actual rates are reported over 20%) and the recent increases in fuel prices isn't going to have consumers splurging any time soon.

I dont agree. Look at the real data. People are spending.

[RIJIMMY]

Originally Posted by eastendlu

Didn't the last round of tax cuts favor the wealthy and not the almost taxed to death middle class ?

No, that is false. Democratic propaganda. The Bush tax cuts were across the board. However the "spin" is that they favor the wealthy because dollar for dollar, the wealthy pay more taxes, so they benefit more from cuts. The tax cuts were equitable which can be deemed to be unfair for political purposes. Its been posted out here a million times but something like 20% of the population pays for 90% of all the taxes.

[JohnnyD]

Originally Posted by RIJIMMY

I dont agree. Look at the real data. People are spending.

Just looked up fresh data and you're right about the savings %. Personal savings as a % of income is down a bit. We are coming out of a holiday season though so who knows. It doesn't change my opinion in the rest of that post with regards to overall distrust of the economy and horrible unemployment rates preventing people from really going out and making purchases.

At the end of the first quarter, there will probably be another bump as people get their tax returns, but I can't see consumer spending trending upward significantly any time soon. There are still far too many radicals with the economy and health care.

[JohnnyD]

Originally Posted by fishbones

I figured as a business owner you'd understand that all debts aren't bad. Tax cuts are put in place to get people spending. This increases GNP, which helps offset the lost revenue from the tax cuts. As I mentioned before, cutting government spending also helps offset the lost tax revenue. Tax cuts put more money into the hands of the people who are going to spend it, while throwing stimulus money at big corporations and banks just drains more money from the economy.

Again you're putting words into my mouth.

[scottw]

Originally Posted by JohnnyD

Again you're putting words into my mouth.

he's only trying to help you sound intelligent

[fishbones]

Originally Posted by JohnnyD

Again you're putting words into my mouth.

How so? You harp on deficits and debt and imply that they're bad. I simply pointed out that not all debt is bad debt. I learned that in college. Of course I only minored in economics in college because the advanced classes were too difficult for me. That's why I switched my major to Poli Sci. No math or real involved thinking required.

[JohnnyD]

Originally Posted by scottw

he's only trying to help you sound intelligent

It's no wonder he doesn't do the same to you then - being so far past the capability of help.

[JohnnyD]

Originally Posted by fishbones

How so? You harp on deficits and debt and imply that they're bad. I simply pointed out that not all debt is bad debt. I learned that in college. Of course I only minored in economics in college because the advanced classes were too difficult for me. That's why I switched my major to Poli Sci. No math or real involved thinking required.

I never stated that all debt is bad, while "I figured as a business owner you'd understand that all debts aren't bad" assumes I did or that I don't understand that taking on *some* debt could be good.

Increasing deficits and debt with no real outlook at how the debts are going to be paid are what caused the collapse of the financial sector and, as I stated earlier, is how the Iraq War/Tax Cuts relationship was a major contributing factor to our current economic state.

[fishbones]

Originally Posted by JohnnyD

I never stated that all debt is bad, while "I figured as a business owner you'd understand that all debts aren't bad" assumes I did or that I don't understand that taking on *some* debt could be good.


Increasing deficits and debt with no real outlook at how the debts are going to be paid are what caused the collapse of the financial sector and, as I stated earlier, is how the Iraq War/Tax Cuts relationship was a major contributing factor to our current economic state.

OK, you didn't come right out and say it, but it was definitely implied when you used words like "insane" and link Bush's economy (which you refer to negatively) with "massive increase of national debt".

You can't have it both ways. And for the record, I think as usual we're not that far apart on our thoughts here. We just have a different way of arriving there.

[JohnnyD]

Originally Posted by fishbones

OK, you didn't come right out and say it, but it was definitely implied when you used words like "insane" and link Bush's economy (which you refer to negatively) with "massive increase of national debt".

You can't have it both ways. And for the record, I think as usual we're not that far apart on our thoughts here. We just have a different way of arriving there.

I see what you're saying. However, Bush's economy did result in a "massive increase of national debt", but my issue with it was that the debt was racked up with no method in sight for how to pay for it.

[buckman]

Originally Posted by JohnnyD

I see what you're saying. However, Bush's economy did result in a "massive increase of national debt", but my issue with it was that the debt was racked up with no method in sight for how to pay for it.

What's the magic plan to pay off Obama's MASSIVE debt?

[JohnnyD]

Originally Posted by buckman

What's the magic plan to pay off Obama's MASSIVE debt?

I never said their was one but, probably the same as Bush's plan oh how we'll pay for Iraq. Tell everyone the policy will pay for itself.

I don't support the massive debt being racked up by just about *ALL* the Democrats right now. But, I didn't agree with the debt being racked up by the Republicans during their last reign either.

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by JohnnyD

Increasing deficits and debt with no real outlook at how the debts are going to be paid are what caused the collapse of the financial sector and, as I stated earlier, is how the Iraq War/Tax Cuts relationship was a major contributing factor to our current economic state.

Wasn't "the economy" doing quite well before the collapse of the financial sector? And wasn't the Government debt as a percentage of GDP, at the time, not historically high? And wasn't the economy that produced high tax revenues partially due to the Bush tax cuts? Wasn't, thus, the Government operating on relatively sound fiscal policy until the financial sector crash (which had nothing to do with tax cuts or the Iraq war)?

[buckman]

Originally Posted by JohnnyD

I never said their was one but, probably the same as Bush's plan oh how we'll pay for Iraq. Tell everyone the policy will pay for itself.

I don't support the massive debt being racked up by just about *ALL* the Democrats right now. But, I didn't agree with the debt being racked up by the Republicans during their last reign either.

Wait until you see Obama's 800 Billion $$$$ war budget coming up!!

[spence]

Originally Posted by RIJIMMY

No, that is false. Democratic propaganda. The Bush tax cuts were across the board.

Not totally true.

The 2001 Bush tax cuts were intentionally graduated to impact the wealthy more during the later years of the program, and this was changed in 2003 to accelerate the benefits to higher wage earners.

Additionally, the tax cuts were designed to expire in 2011 specifically so they could avoid rules intended to protect hidden spending, really to hide the true cost.

Yes, the rich pay more, blah blah blah, we all know this but the 2001 tax cut wasn't really as simple as being across the board.

-spence

[scottw]

Originally Posted by JohnnyD

It's no wonder he doesn't do the same to you then - being so far past the capability of help.

just havin' fun...you love me...

[JohnnyD]

Originally Posted by scottw

just havin' fun...you love me...

Of course. What fun would this place be if we couldn't exchange an elbow jab or two once in a while?

[scottw]

Originally Posted by buckman

What's the magic plan to pay off Obama's MASSIVE debt?

that's the question that everyone should be asking Buck...there is nothing being done to spur the economy, this is a willful destruction of the American economy, they will continue to smile at you and tell you things are getting better as everything collapses....higher taxes, more regulation, more dependence on government and greater government control of the private sector and your life ....this is now the playland of the radical left....good luck everyone...don't think that they haven't factored amnesty into the mid term calculus.....