Should we be better than this

[ecduzitgood]

Karzai condemns video of urination on corpses - Yahoo! News

I say no. They treat us allot worse and this will just enrage them more.
To be better behaved than your enemy doesn't work, remember the American revolution? How did that turn out for the Brits who behaved better?
They need to fear us if we want them to stop.

[Raven]

sending in kids with bombs tied to them under their clothes
sure didn't win any popularity contests

[Piscator]

Leave these guys alone, they are just waterboarding

[PaulS]

I hold ourselves to a higher standard than I hold our enemies.

[inTHERAPY]

you beat me to the post....WHAT KIND OF MARINES ARE WE TRAINING

that are so silly as to video that and let it get out. keep that between yourselves, what happens in the middle east, stays in the middle east. senseless media bull crap

[fishbones]

Originally Posted by PaulS

I hold ourselves to a higher standard than I hold our enemies.

X's 2.

Aren't we always saying how much better we are than them? If so, let's not stoop to their level.

[The Dad Fisherman]

Originally Posted by PaulS

I hold ourselves to a higher standard than I hold our enemies.

Absolutely.....

Originally Posted by inTHERAPY

you beat me to the post....WHAT KIND OF MARINES ARE WE TRAINING

The Best Fighting force in the world....don't let these 3 reflect badly on those who went before and those who will come after.

[RIJIMMY]

Yes, we should be better than this.
But if one minute we are bombing, and shooting them - lets be realistic. I'd rather be peed on that shot.
We are asking a lot of our troops, to kill, be away from their families, etc. These marines should be called in, reprimanded and then sent on their way. Nothing more. This should not be a public execution. This is minor, very minor.

[likwid]

Originally Posted by inTHERAPY

senseless media bull crap

senseless media bull crap?
i fired an employee for running their mouth on facebook about a client.

don't want to get into major crap? keep your mouth shut.

[RIROCKHOUND]

Originally Posted by RIJIMMY

But if one minute we are bombing, and shooting them - lets be realistic. I'd rather be peed on that shot..

Except that these guys got both, dead and pissed on.

We should be better than this. In this day and age you have to realize, videos like that ALWAYS get leaked... the last thing we need is to give the taliban even more incentive to kill American soldiers.

time to get them all home...

[Piscator]

[QUOTE=likwid;914079]senseless media bull crap?
i fired an employee for running their mouth on facebook about a client. QUOTE]

This is becomeing a very common thing. People are getting crazy with "sit on my facebook"

[RIJIMMY]

[QUOTE=RIROCKHOUND;914082]Except that these guys got both, dead and pissed on.

We should be better than this. In this day and age you have to realize, videos like that ALWAYS get leaked... the last thing we need is to give the taliban even more incentive to kill American soldiers.
QUOTE]

Yeah, when some fat guy in a suit makes a mistake and a drone kills a bunch of pakistani kids we say, oops, sorry. Nothing more comes of it. But some kids FORCED to kill and be away from their families do a stupid thing and it becomes national news. Which gives the taliban more incentive???
It was wrong, I agree. But IMHO its as wrong as kids spray painting grafitti on a school building, nothing more. Reprimand them and let it be. Dont ruin these kids life, what we MADE them do is enough.

[spence]

Originally Posted by RIJIMMY

But IMHO its as wrong as kids spray painting grafitti on a school building, nothing more. Reprimand them and let it be.

I think that's exactly the wrong way to look at it.

If you don't make an effort to maintain ethics in warfare you're no better than they are. It is certainly possible to be an ethical warrior, in fact its critical to provide a moral foundation for your actions.

This doesn't mean in the heat of battle someone might kill out of rage or hatred. Hell, I'm sure at times it's even encouraged. But outside of this there needs to be respect for the fact that the enemy is/was a human being as well. Even OBL was treated with dignity, partially out of PR and also because it was the right thing to do.

What these guys did was send the message that in their eyes the Taliban are sub-human. That's a lot different than vandalism Jimmy.

Yes, stuff like this happens in war. The intensity, adrenaline, testosterone, stress, maturity etc... but they always look at the leadership don't they...

-spence

[PaulS]

Should we have our troops string them up w/wire and hang them from bridges? How about drag them behind humvees?

I agree w/Jimmy though in that peeing on someone is a relatively minor offense (esp. considering that some people evidentially like getting peed on).

[Raven]

they are not worth respecting

do not click this link if your eating

you have been warned

Redirect Notice

[PaulS]

Originally Posted by ecduzitgood

Treat others has they treat you is my motto.

I wouldn't ask our soldiers to do anything that I wouldn't do myself.

Edit - so we should have our soldiers behead capture Taliban?

FYI - I can't hear the sound track.

[PaulS]

Originally Posted by ecduzitgood

I also would not punish others who have no issue doing what the enemy does to their brothers and sisters in the armed forces. The line should be drawn when it comes to civilians, hands off unless they are armed.

So the stringing up the enemy from bridges w/wire and dragging them behind humvees is ok then?

Agree w/you on the 2nd part.

[spence]

Originally Posted by ecduzitgood

They have no respect for us and never will so I say treat them the way they treat you, let the enemy set the bar.

If you're advocating letting somebody else dictate what your own ethics should be I'm not thinking many will agree with you here.

I understand during world war II it was common practice to piss on the German soldiers who occupied pill boxes after the troops killed the occupants.

And in Vietnam they did a lot worse. What's your point?

Maybe it's their feelings of superiority that made them do it, if we are all humans we should treat each other equally, time to take the handcuffs off, you F-with us you pay. I think they ought to put up billboards stating "THIS COULD BE YOU....NEXT".

You can't fight effectively unless you choose sides, on that I'd agree.

But how you fight is up to you.

You seem to be saying that if the Taliban think they're going to get pee'd on they will be intimidated. I think that's silly.

Maybe we should just cover them with pig entrails in a humble ceremony stating that is our way of honoring enemy combatants.

Again, what's the point? Our mission is to help stabilize Afghanistan so they're not a haven for terrorists that might harm US interests.

How does humiliating the same "people" you're trying to help achieve this mission?

-spence

[Raven]

SAD thing is ..... not to jump subjects
these atrocities transferred from the middle east to mexico
namely: hanging people from bridges and lopping off the heads...

i was watching Rob Roy last night
and the noblemen said "hang him from the bridge"
and probably would have left him dangling there

[Piscator]

I don't agree with what they did but I can’t put myself in their shoes either. Maybe I would have done the same thing. These kids are probably not even 21. Most likely can't even have a beer in a bar yet.

It was poor judgment on their part but they will probably be punished too harshly given today’s insane media coverage, they will make an example out of them.

Hilary’s comments were “it is absolutely inconsistent with American values” but she may have been talking about that bean job in the oval office........

[ecduzitgood]

Originally Posted by Piscator

I don't agree with what they did but I can’t put myself in their shoes either. Maybe I would have done the same thing. These kids are probably not even 21. Most likely can't even have a beer in a bar yet.

It was poor judgment on their part but they will probably be punished too harshly given today’s insane media coverage, they will make an example out of them.

Hilary’s comments were “it is absolutely inconsistent with American values” but she may have been talking about that bean job in the oval office........

And her philandering husband set the bar for ethics and is 3rd on the list of best US presidents, maybe they should have just shoved cigars up their arses.

[RIJIMMY]

Originally Posted by spence

I think that's exactly the wrong way to look at it.

If you don't make an effort to maintain ethics in warfare you're no better than they are. It is certainly possible to be an ethical warrior, in fact its critical to provide a moral foundation for your actions.

This doesn't mean in the heat of battle someone might kill out of rage or hatred. Hell, I'm sure at times it's even encouraged. But outside of this there needs to be respect for the fact that the enemy is/was a human being as well. Even OBL was treated with dignity, partially out of PR and also because it was the right thing to do.


-spence

you never cease to amaze me.
OBL was shot in cold blood, unarmed.
"in the heat of battle someone might kill out of rage or hatred" - really? you think they KILL out of sense of duty? Orders?
Im gotta drop from this thread because I have a lot of emotion on military topics but I'll leave you with this to chew on spence. please read carefully - you never seem to much of a history guy so this may be shocking to you, but its 100% true
The 101st airborne has been recognized over and over for their heroics in WWII and especially d-day. They were immortalized further by the Band of Brothers movies and book. I've read additonal books written by some of the guys from Band of B. I attending a forum with these guys and heard their stories in person. It may be news to you but they shot, in cold blood, EVERY SS solider that surrendered to them. Everyone. never took an SS prisoner.. that was a war crime. that was wrong. But you know what, who cares? these guys are heroes and most men could never do what they did. I dont believe they are above the law, but the law changes when you see and do what they do every day. the same goes for those guys in afghanistan. Spence - you wouldnt have the balls to look those guys in the eye and condemn them. They've gone through more hell in a minute than you will in your life. To me, pissing on dead guys is equivalent to vandalism. its no big deal.

[spence]

Originally Posted by RIJIMMY

you never cease to amaze me.
OBL was shot in cold blood, unarmed.

I believe that was the mission and something I don't have an issue with. The point was that we didn't parade his head around on a stake afterwords.

"in the heat of battle someone might kill out of rage or hatred" - really? you think they KILL out of sense of duty? Orders?

I think that's pretty obvious don't you?

Im gotta drop from this thread because I have a lot of emotion on military topics but I'll leave you with this to chew on spence. please read carefully - you never seem to much of a history guy so this may be shocking to you, but its 100% true
The 101st airborne has been recognized over and over for their heroics in WWII and especially d-day. They were immortalized further by the Band of Brothers movies and book. I've read additonal books written by some of the guys from Band of B. I attending a forum with these guys and heard their stories in person. It may be news to you but they shot, in cold blood, EVERY SS solider that surrendered to them. Everyone. never took an SS prisoner.. that was a war crime. that was wrong. But you know what, who cares? these guys are heroes and most men could never do what they did. I dont believe they are above the law, but the law changes when you see and do what they do every day. the same goes for those guys in afghanistan. Spence - you wouldnt have the balls to look those guys in the eye and condemn them. They've gone through more hell in a minute than you will in your life. To me, pissing on dead guys is equivalent to vandalism. its no big deal.

This situation is a lot different than in WW2. You could also think that the taking of prisoners in that situation could be a tactical mistake.

Here the action has no real merit, but it's also potentially destructive considering the context.

I've never been quick to condemn the actions of our troops, and frankly believe they deserve a lot of leeway. Most likely these guys are good Marines who just did something stupid, especially by letting themselves be recorded on camera doing it.

An "anything goes" mentality isn't in the interest of our country or our troops.

-spence

[spence]

Originally Posted by Piscator

It was poor judgment on their part but they will probably be punished too harshly given today’s insane media coverage, they will make an example out of them.

I don't know. I'm sure there will be discipline, but also proportionate to the action. While I obviously disagree with Jimmy that it's more serious than vandalism it could have been a lot worse.

-spence

[buckman]

Famous line
"I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it."

They shouldn't have recorded it. End of story

[spence]

Originally Posted by ecduzitgood

Good god you're loosing it.

-spence

[ecduzitgood]

I lost it a long time ago, thus I have an open mind and express my opinion freely.

[RIROCKHOUND]

Originally Posted by ecduzitgood

I lost it a long time ago, thus I have an open mind and express my opinion freely.

You didn't happen to start the liquid pregame for the pats game today, did you?

I'm also wondering what the 'it' you duz good.....

[spence]

Originally Posted by buckman

Famous line
"I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it."

I think it's important to understand why this movie quote is so important.

On one hand, it holds what appears to clearly be a fundamental truth and something we'd all ultimately come to agree with.

And on the other, the entire movie is about exposing a weakness to this truth.

Remember, at the end of the film Col. Jessup goes to jail.

-spence

[Joe]

It's a matter of perspective: After you've watched someone's head explode in your scope sight, pissing on their corpse can be perceived as less barbarous.

I like Col Kurtz's line Apocalypse Now, "We train young men to drop fire on people, but we won't let them writ f__k on the side of their planes because it's obscene." War is contradictory and insane.

I'm quite sure they held the values of an honorable warrior at one time. But how long can we reasonably expect those standards to hold? How many tours have these guys done? When's the last time they felt civilized? The picture says that their identity and value system has dissolved to the point where now they perceive themselves simply as killers - accountable only to their brothers-in-arms.