Upsetting encounter with the charter boat KAYMAN TOO

[RI Popper]

Well Hello S.B. gang. I'm sorry I haven't replied sooner than this. I have a long historty of fishing Stellwagon Bank. I have been doing it with my own boat for the past 5 or 6 years. I have many times taken friends with me who are charter captains themselves (names available upon request). If some of you believe his actions were justified, I recommend getting ajoining rooms with him and his racist friends.

I worked fish for 2 miles from west to east going toward the area where Kayman Too was. On 3 or 4 occasions American Classic would come close to where I was to start fishing. Along with another smaller private boat. I considered that they were trying to F I S H not harass me! So when I made a large (50+ yards) circle up drift of Kayman Too and marked fish on a side Side SIDE drift. I stopped and started fishing. That's when the event occured and draw your own judments of his handling of it. I personally have lost some sleep over seeing how poorly My friend and Camrad-in-Arms was treated. I pray you gentlmen would not behave that way to anyone, no less a veterant.

Sincerely,

Armand

[Swimmer]

I am more than a little surprised to hear a charter guy came that close to another boat at Stellwagon. That would obviously eflame the yahoos he had on board even more than they allready were. If whats being said by the SamuraiF is true then it sounds like Kayman was trying to instigate further or greater problems when it seems yelling at Samurai from 40 or 50 feet away would have sufficed.

As far as the mooing, so what, as far as the racist comments, federal civil rights violations.

[BigFish]

The mooning......just one a$$ showing his a$$!

[flatts1]

Originally Posted by Canalman

I can't believe you guys are defending this guys juvenille behavoir! If someone interrupts your drift or gets "too close" I can think of about 500 things I'd do before mooning them, throwing fish or INSULTING SOMEONE'S RACE! C'mon you guys... you should be ashamed ASHAMED! That is POOR very POOR and that guys should be punished for acting like a childish @$$H0/_3.

-Dave

Unreal. Always interesting to see the different cultures and values on the various fishing forums out there.

I agree with Canalman and ReelEcstasy on this one. What a shame.

By the way, I first caught SF's post on the SNESA/RISAA email list where MANY others offered him support and applauded him for keeping his cool.

There someone responded to him that he should post this same information on a few Massachusetts oriented fishing websites.

striped-bass.com was one of them listed. So I don't find it surprising that this was his first post. Honestly, I think he could have been welcomed a little better.

SF, personally I appreciate you posting your first-hand account of the story and for filing a report with the CG. What is the saying? No good deed shall go unpunished.

Thanks Again,
Mike Flaherty

P.S.
Remember folks, it wasn't the customer who drove the boat up 15 feet from Armond.

[Skitterpop]

I knew from the beginning post who Armand was. I`ve had only great interactions with him here in cyberspace.

Just this 1st post huge complaint thing. Granted the customers and maybe the captain did some very wrong things but from my point of view none of it would have ocurred if the charter boat wasn`t crowded in a area relatively void of boats because SK and company saw them taking a few fish.

Peace.... Mike

[MakoMike]

Guys,
FWIW, he posted this early this morning on the SNESA mailing list and a number fo guys on the list suggested he post it here as well as the other place. Armand is also on the list and will eventually see it if he hasn't already, so I believe Samurai when he says that Armand was the capt. FWIW, it sounds to me like there is more than enough fault to go around.

[Goose]

It sounds to me like the capt's actions could have been influenced by his party,,, that doesn't justify the Capt's actions nor anyone else's.
Seems that there where some ingnorant raceist who jumped to conclusions. We all know what its like on shore and water when minoritys who don't know fish addicate get to close...I can't *&^$# stand it! and thats not even my bread and butter.

[LeCounts1099]

I lean toward believing Armands' take here! It's all about the other Charter Captains' willingness to get intentionally close to the "invading" boat, that starts "war chants" on- board, esp. among the "outgoing" & flamboyant drinkers of the party! The Captain sets the tone, & here that setting the table was the game of bumper- boats he was playing! Sorry-- there's never any need to get within 30- 40 yards of another boat minimally, esp. not on the open Ocean!

I don't know this Charter boat, nor fish on boats North of Rhody myself... nor fish Cod in Winter as I'm Bass- obsessed!... But: how dumb and aggresive CAN Charter Captains get with "recs." with absolutely no justification?

I'm chunking in the Western Sound on anchor last June, & pulling up Bass between 12- 25 lbs. here & there. I see a largish Charter boat anchored a half- mile from me, & wondered how he might be doing, as I released a 25 lber on this afternoon trip. After re-baiting my lines & relaxing, lo and behold this 50 foot + Charter boat is steaming right for me, where I'm sitting in 50 feet of water in the middle of the Sound alone! He anchors 20 yards away!, uptide of me!!... and so his fares are drifting their chunks back into my anchor line & under my boat! We're the only 2 boats there for miles! Now his fares are caught on my anchor- line, & frustrated with me "blocking" their fishing... & so now they're yelling & cursing at me!! I'm ruining their fishing after all!

Point is: there was a time where the Charter guys "knew the score" of proper fishing behavior & even basic Seamanship & manners... and most of those who were lacking out there during non- peak boating times were the Rec. boats! But: that's all changed today, for whatever reason(s). Some Charter Captains literally do behave like you're on their Ocean! And yes, they do like to incite & encourage their fares to join in the "us vs. them" warfare!

[SBASS1]

Boy, I'm glad you grouped everyone together like that......

[BigFish]

I said it before.....Big Ocean.....why must you all be on top of each other????? Its like when I have my kids at the beach....lots of sand but yet they must setup their play areas right on top of each other and then they are screaming at each other about who kicked sand at who!!!

[RI Popper]

Larry, I can't understand how you can try to keep it coming back to distance? I maintained atleast 150' at any time. And I didn't set up on his drift - I was on the side of their drift. I approached and was using my fish finder of which I have 2. There were boats that did the same to me atleast 4 or 5 times during the day. CAN'T YOU UNDERSTAND IT ISN'T an issue of protecting ground. It is one of complete rudeness/racism/verbal assault percipitated by a captain fostering this in his guests and barreling down on another boat. Have you ever fished the spawning grounds near "B" bouy? there are times there you can jump boat to boat because of them being so close together. Don't jump through hoops to justify your such bad behavior.

Armand

[GBOUTDOORS]

I said it before I will say it again first post and its badmouthing someone. Did some one mouth off at you, could be did you move in on them YES you said so your self. LeCounts you said it your self BIG OCEAN NO NEED to get anywere near 30-40-50 yards of this boat but thats what was done they got close to them! Now your 25 MILES from shore and you just got to fish on top of another boat none of this would have happened if no one came close to each other. The thing that I dis like the most about this is the way SF felt the need to come here with his FIRST post full of HATE we would not be having this talk but for him feeling the need to trash some one here so if you do not like the way I and others feel about this try and start out on a good foot not bad. All I see this as is a fight you started and now hope to win by default. I am sorry you feel wronged but I gusse thats the way the other boat must have felt when you started this thing out there. How is it we can always see what others did wrong but NEVER what we may have done????????

Ps RI POPPER I just read your last post and you are right I think there was a lot of rudeness going around but it did start some where.

[BigFish]

I am not justifying the behavior of the other boat Armand.....they were dead wrong to act the way they did towards you and your party....my point is why must you be stopping to fish 50 yards from them? Is it because they are a charter boat and you figure...Hey....they must be onto something so lets set up here and fish? If I had been in your shoes I would have moved along a bit and found some other fish to catch......if I was on a lonely beach Armand all by myself and a guy came along....walking all the way down the beach without making so much as a cast until he gets 25 feet from me and then he stops and begins casting, figuring I must be into fish, otherwise why am I there, then I would have a huge problem with him and said so! Sounds like thats what you guys did.

Again....yes they were wrong for their behavior but it sounds to me like you may have rubbed their fur the wrong way?

I call them as I see them.

[thefishingfreak]

this is rediculous!! your badmouthing kevin twombly a respected charter buisness all over the www?? 'cum on, grow up and call him up and straiten it out like MEN!!

another two page rant on the other board too..
it's on msba relay couple other boards too. if i was kevin i would be fuming!!!!




ASSEMBLY, No. 1327

STATE OF NEW JERSEY

212th LEGISLATURE



PRE-FILED FOR INTRODUCTION IN THE 2006 SESSION





Sponsored by:

Assemblyman PETER J. BIONDI

District 16 (Morris and Somerset)









SYNOPSIS

Makes certain operators of interactive computer services and Internet service providers liable to persons injured by false or defamatory messages posted on public forum websites.



CURRENT VERSION OF TEXT

As introduced.



An Act concerning the posting of certain Internet messages and supplementing chapter 38A of Title 2A of the New Jersey Statutes.



Be It Enacted by the Senate and General Assembly of the State of New Jersey:



1. As used in this act:

"Information content provider" means any person or entity that is responsible, in whole or in part, for the creation or development of information provided through the Internet or any other interactive computer service.

"Interactive computer service" means any information system, service, or access software provider that provides or enables computer access by multiple users to a computer server, including specifically a service or system that provides service to the Internet.

"Internet" means the international computer network of both federal and non-federal interoperable packet switched data networks.

"Internet service provider" or "provider" means any person, business or organization qualified to do business in this State that provides individuals, corporations, or other entities with the ability to connect to the Internet through equipment that is located in this State.

"Operator" means any person, business or organization qualified to do business in this State that operates an interactive computer service.



2. The operator of any interactive computer service or an Internet service provider shall establish, maintain and enforce a policy to require any information content provider who posts written messages on a public forum website either to be identified by a legal name and address, or to register a legal name and address with the operator of the interactive computer service or the Internet service provider through which the information content provider gains access to the interactive computer service or Internet, as appropriate.



3. An operator of an interactive computer service or an Internet service provider shall establish and maintain reasonable procedures to enable any person to request and obtain disclosure of the legal name and address of an information content provider who posts false or defamatory information about the person on a public forum website.



4. Any person who is damaged by false or defamatory written messages that originate from an information content provider who posts such messages on a public forum website may file suit in Superior Court against an operator or provider that fails to establish, maintain and enforce the policy required pursuant to section 2 of P.L. , c. (C.) (pending before the Legislature as this bill), and may recover compensatory and punitive damages and the cost of the suit, including a reasonable attorney's fee, cost of investigation and litigation from such operator or provider.



5. This act shall take effect on the 90th day following enactment.





STATEMENT



This bill would require an operator of any interactive computer service or an Internet service provider to establish, maintain and enforce a policy requiring an information content provider who posts messages on a public forum website either to be identified by legal name and address or to register a legal name and address with the operator or provider prior to posting messages on a public forum website.

The bill requires an operator of an interactive computer service or an Internet service provider to establish and maintain reasonable procedures to enable any person to request and obtain disclosure of the legal name and address of an information content provider who posts false or defamatory information about the person on a public forum website.

In addition, the bill makes any operator or Internet service provider liable for compensatory and punitive damages as well as costs of a law suit filed by a person damaged by the posting of such messages if the operator or Internet service provider fails to establish, maintain and enforce the policy required by section 2 of the bill.

[tattoobob]

I have to agree with Canalman, ReelEcstasy, and Flatts
This is unexceptable, I don't care where you fish there
is always room for one more. I fish in the mouth of the
Merrimac River with my little boat and there are some
real Knuckleheads out there, I have seen it all including
stuff like this and fist fights. I have this to say there is
no need to insult someones herritage that is narrow minded
and just uneducated people. they need to grow up.

I believe they did the right thing by keeping there cool.
Always treat someone the way you want to be treated.

[JohnR]

My personal feeling is that if I am treated like that I don't go and sign up on websites to state what happened and trash someone else - I will let it be known in the communities I'm involved in. If you read what I posted, I did not go one way or the other on the subject, but to wait until I heard more. As I read the SNESA list when I get a chance I would have read this but I still have not had a chance (and will do so if I get a chance). Now SF is a member over there and has a rapport with the folks on that list but he wasn't here (and like I did say earlier, welcome to S-B and hope you stay beyond this topic). Armand is a member here, for a couple years now, so yes, I will give him far more latitude as a long term member here with an established track record versus someone that posts something like this with the first post. I don't think there is anything wrong with that. I would expect the SNESA list to want to dig in a little and see things play out if someone goes there with a similar situation on their first email...

Assuming that everything is correct the way SF mentions it, and he brought it to the CG's attention, he did the right thing. I'm not sure if that's the BEST avenue to take action and I'm not sure what other avenues might be better.

If that was what happened, it was wrong. We can debate what is the proper distance to maintain between boats and drifts from now until the bass head back for next winter.

Flatts, you always seem to find fault with how other sites and communities operate, personally I like you and think you do good work, vocally applaud that work, and support you 95% of the time but I also think from time to time that you feel you are holier than the rest of us mere mortals. This is a discussion where people are offering various opinions – that happens on discussion forums. Most of the discussion has been in support of SF, awaiting more facts - including Armand's post - and there has been some disagreement on the etiquette of "vessel proximity" and “drift protocol”. But what is wrong with people being a little skeptical until more info is in? Why should everyone jump at SF’s beck and call on his first post without getting more info? If we rallied the troops on everyone’s first post here, where would we be? A lot of people try to gain advantage against others posting here and elsewhere, doesn’t hurt to be prudent.

SF, again, I think you did the right thing in reporting it the way you did, whether or not the captain on K2 did the right thing or not (and yes, that will get debated to no end), the actions of his client were pretty crappy. Also understand that with this being your first post I think you can appreciate some being a bit cautious until more info comes out. I see no harm in that. Had you been a regular member here for a little while and built a relationship with some of the people, you would have seen a response a lot more along the lines of what you got on the SENSA list.

Thanks!

[samurai fisherm]

GBOUTDOORS - I didn't come to this site with hate. I did not call anyone names. I just stated what had happened to me and the racial comments that were directed at me. My feeling wronged has to do with the racial comments and the way the whole situation was handled. I honestly don't think we were too close based on the drift, but some people have a diffference of opinion. That is fine but please don't say I came to this site with only hate in my comments.

It was recommended to me from other fisherman that I post this on this board and let people make their own diecisions. I have done that. I didn't come hear for a fight.

[thefishingfreak]

so,,,,,,,, lets go on the 2 biggest fishing websites this side of the missippi, and badmouth someone as a new member.
shame on you. no matter what happened out there.

[stripersnipr]

I for one appreciate the opportunity to read this post and be made aware of a situation which then allows to me form an opinion on what I determine may or not be fact. At this point we have a statement which in turn was corroborated by a second party. There are consequences to this type of behavior and keeping it quiet whether its someones first post or not would be wrong. Kevin is aware of these posts and has the opportunity to respond as he likes.

[JohnR]

Originally Posted by thefishingfreak

ASSEMBLY, No. 1327

STATE OF NEW JERSEY

212th LEGISLATURE

PRE-FILED FOR INTRODUCTION IN THE 2006 SESSION

Sponsored by:

Assemblyman PETER J. BIONDI

District 16 (Morris and Somerset)

SYNOPSIS

Makes certain operators of interactive computer services and Internet service providers liable to persons injured by false or defamatory messages posted on public forum websites.

lotsologalese

STATEMENT



This bill would require an operator of any interactive computer service or an Internet service provider to establish, maintain and enforce a policy requiring an information content provider who posts messages on a public forum website either to be identified by legal name and address or to register a legal name and address with the operator or provider prior to posting messages on a public forum website.

The bill requires an operator of an interactive computer service or an Internet service provider to establish and maintain reasonable procedures to enable any person to request and obtain disclosure of the legal name and address of an information content provider who posts false or defamatory information about the person on a public forum website.

In addition, the bill makes any operator or Internet service provider liable for compensatory and punitive damages as well as costs of a law suit filed by a person damaged by the posting of such messages if the operator or Internet service provider fails to establish, maintain and enforce the policy required by section 2 of the bill.

FF - if this came to pass, I would need to check with a lawyer first but I would probably and very unfortunately, require people from NJ to at least sign a release or something, at worst, hate to contemplate the worst case. Really a shame to see something like that happen. I love you guys but I'm not going to lose my house because someone is having a bad day....

[Pete_G]

It definitely goes both ways on the water.

It comes down to this, as far as I'm concerned. Charter captains should show the same respect any boater would show to any other boater. Maybe more but nothing less. Respect for space, respect for spots, just basic respect. Unless your an idiot you know when you're crossing the line, charter boat or otherwise. Jump my spot or drift? Trouble. Respectfully join in a drift? No problems. Get too close without clearance, especially while I'm fishing? BIG trouble.

Personally, when I'm on the water I try to avoid captains with sports on board. I know they're working for a living. But at the same time I'm on a mission to catch fish. If you're in a drift where I think there's fish I may respectfully join in. More then likely I'll go find my own water as I just like to be alone. But if I do a captain has no right to say a word. I fish a few spots that very few others fish. Hidden, tough to fish spots. I learned them from others, and if I see those who taught me approach I move. Just a basic respect thing, nothing more.

As for sensitive spots where I fish in a boat that I want to protect, unless it's seriously foggy or after dark I don't go there. Or I move off long before someone gets near me. Also, Stellwagen Bank or the Race aren't exactly secrets. Can't be too surprised if there's some traffic there. With everyone having GPS these days it's easy to figure out where a given boat is working and go back in the future.

Keeping spots hidden is just part of the game as is respect on the water.

As for racial stuff pertaining to the original post, that's just unacceptable, no matter what the circumstance.

[Slipknot]

Regarding that internet synopsis crap about holding the site owner responsible for someone slandering or whatever, I am saddened by the WUSIFICATION of America if that is the case and people are not responsible for their own actions pass the buck I guess, not my fault WTF? people these days like to pass the blame.I say grow up and act like an adult. I can't believe the liberal judges that allow such crap.

samurai fisherm came here with the intent of warning others of an incedent that happened to turn others away from doing business with the charter guy. You didn't ask for an apology, as far as I can see from reading this and only getting your side of it, is that you both could have acted differently and maybe it would not have come to the bad behavior. For instance when they rode right up to you instead of yelling hey what's your problem, maybe a simple Oh, are we crowding you too close? I guess we can move. I know that the charter guy escalated it and a client was way out of line with the racial comments but like others have said, maybe just call the guy up and settle it like men. It would be nice if the guy with brass balls would apologize for his comments but I doubt that would happen. Maybe Armand could apologize first and see where it goes because what's done is done, it's not helping matters bashing the guy on the internet.
I knew this thread was gonna go south and sides would be taken.
Everyones opinion on what distance to keep away from others is going to vary so much that of course there is going to be differences of opinions on this matter too, but I think we can all agree that there was no need of racial comments or tossing fish or whatever. So if the Captain is responsible for his clients, then maybe he can step up and apologize. wishful thinking I'm sure

It's a shame this couldn't have been handled some other way but I can see how samurai is pissed off.
maybe we need a thunderdome out on stellawagon
2 men enter, one man leave

[Mike P]

John--the key words in that bill are "false and defamatory". Defamation, by definition, requires the communication, verbally or in writing, of false facts. Truth is an absolute defense in any defamation suit. And the person claiming he was defamed has the burden of disproving that the allegations were true.

[JohnR]

Originally Posted by Mike P

John--the key words in that bill are "false and defamatory". Defamation, by definition, requires the communication, verbally or in writing, of false facts. Truth is an absolute defense in any defamation suit. And the person claiming he was defamed has the burden of disproving that the allegations were true.

Yep. But S-B might decide it does not want to need to expend the needed resources to defend itself were that to come to pass.

You NJ folks that like the Internet, call your legislature and deep6 this moronic peice... Far more important things to address than this. I bet this is someone's pet peave and that someone got picked on a little too hard online and is seaking revenge of the legislative pen...

[JohnR]

As for the negative Charter experience portions of this thread, some items are ongoing offline that would be beneficial to not further fan the flames. So I will lock this thread for now pending future results.

PMs on the way to SF & Armand...